General Corona Virus Discussion

   #701  

Sebastian

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   #702  

rks

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Really? Are we quoting bullshit videos now?

https://www.volksverpetzer.de/corona-faktencheck/pandemie-in-den-rohdaten/

Hi Sebastian,

I don't know if a bullshit video is quoted. Sorry, I did not have the time to watch your link, just read the post.

As correctiv.org is known for its propaganda, I do not expect something other than the known propaganda. But I'm curious how they manage to make people believe, that the sun shines on midnight.

Let's see how this works and if it only works for people who already got their "Bratwurst" (German insider joke, they really give you a sausage and there are lots of people for which this is a good reason to act as proband).
 
   #703  

Uwe

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As correctiv.org is known for its propaganda
Sounds like it might be the German version of Snopes.com?

I've watched the whole "bullshit" video and I'm still looking for a logical flaw in analysis of deaths in 2020 compared to other years. I've also read the relevant section of the correctiv.org rebuttal. They have a graph in there that I think destroys much of their argument:

Bildschirmfoto-2021-09-07-um-16.20.45.png


Look at the thin gray lines for other years there. There were other years with higher peak deaths than 2020, and some of the "mountains" in other years appear to have just about as much mass (area under the curve) as the orange area in late 2020. The difference is that people didn't lose their minds in those years, and governments didn't impose all kinds of destructive restrictions on them.

-Uwe-
 
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   #704  

Sebastian

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As correctiv.org is known for its propaganda, I do not expect something other than the known propaganda.
Help me out, what is the basis for your "propaganda" claim? An no, Tichy is not a legitimate source. ;)

Go for it, convince me that your view is fact based and what you call "propaganda" is not.
 
   #705  

Mike@Gendan

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Interesting scientific analysis of the Ivermectin Covid trials.

TL-DR:
While not specifically saying it doesn't work -
- The studies saying it does tended to show clear signs of fraud (falsified / duplicated data) or biased controls.
- The most trustworthy trials said there was no evidence of benefit for ivermectin when it comes to Covid.
 
   #706  

Uwe

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Interesting scientific analysis of the Ivermectin Covid trials.
From the state-funded BBC? Pffft. :p

I suppose they still believe it's better to engage in therapeutic nihilism and do absolutely nothing unless/until a person turns starts to turn blue from a lack of oxygen?

Oh, wait, soon there might finally be an approved early treatment. Merck has filed an EUA application for a drug called Molnupiravir. It's another previously failed drug (just like Remdesivir) and its mechanism of action is to cause a massive number of mutations in the viral replication process. Of course these mutations could never give rise to new variants, nor could the mutagenic properties of this drug cause birth defects or cancer, right?

As for Ivermectin, start here and take the time to read the whole thing:

Please note that the there are over 60 studies here (not just 26) and the total number of subjects in these studies is over 45,000 compared to 600 or so that Merck had in their study of Molnupiravir.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

The nay-sayers constantly dismiss Ivermectin as nothing more than an anti-parasitic drug, yet it has at least five possible Mechanisms of Action that could make it effective against SARS-COV2, particularly as prophylaxis and in early treatment:
  1. At infection SARS-COV2 binds with its spike to the human ACE2 receptor. IVM binds to the spike and ACE2. By sitting in between them it can inhibit the infection:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7652439/

  2. It disrupts RdRp, an enzyme needed for viral RNA replication:
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.592908/full
    https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1

  3. It disrupts another enzyme called 3-chymotrypsin, which like protease is pivotal for viral replication.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01577-x

  4. It disrupts viral messages to the cell nucleus. When a human cell recognizes a stressor it creates substances(for instance IFN-alpha and Tumor necrosis factor TNF) in order to increase defenses for the nucleus and provde markers to neighboring cells to alarm them. Viruses use these transporters to send messages to the nucleus making the defenses stay low and preventing the warning to neighbor cells. IVM blocks the message from being attached to the transporters Importin alpha/beta, so there is no delivery to the nucleus. This MoA has previously been demonstrated in HIV and Dengue, and SARS-COV2 uses this mechanism as well:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3327999/

  5. It disrupts NF-κB pathway. This means is anti-inflammatory and reduces the risk for a cytokine storm to occur. Why this matters:
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.598444/full
    And why it can:
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19453757/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now is any of this proof that Ivermectin definitely works? Perhaps not, but since we've got decades worth of safety data on it (billions of doses have been given to many millions of people with practically no reports of negative effects), there is absolutely no reason not to let doctors who think it might be helpful prescribe it.

-Uwe-

fCkrw6F.jpg
 
   #707  

Crasher

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State funded BBC? What is wrong with that? Well it only has a left wing socialist LGBTQXYZABCGTI agenda so if you consider that Republican or right wing your are about a galaxy off target!
 
   #709  

Fred's Imports

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Ask more questions, no matter what news source we embrace; there's just too many bad things coming out.

As a youngster I loved the BBC and PBS until I realized they are just part of the agenda like CIA News Network (CNN).

We are screwed, all of us, screwed.

ASK MORE EFFING QUESTIONS! We're in a bar right?


Let's Go Brandon!
 
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   #710  

Crasher

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We’re in a bar right?
Only in a real bar/pub you can’t smoke or ask non woke questions and even having a pint is frowned upon, yes you are right… we are screwed, unless we can squash socialism.
 
   #711  

Uwe

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in a real bar/pub you can’t smoke or ask non woke questions
In this one you can, and anyone who doesn't like it is welcome to find a different place to hang out.

-Uwe-

PS: If you're not allowed to question it, it's propaganda, not science.
 
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@Uwe: I note your new signature (not sure of the date of its genesis). Don't get me wrong, I like the idea - but as I'm aware that you are a fellow pedant, I feel that it's OK to point-out that science (well.............in truth, modern science) isn't really a place where ALL questions are allowed!!

As an example, consider the development of the relatively new field of quantum mechanics:
In the discussion about the paradox of the double slit experiment (the details of the experiment don't matter, but in general the paradox is about the behavior of electrons to exhibit both particle and wave properties when passed through a plate with 2 x slits), the author HERE (top page 25) says:
But in the pure Heisenberg approach whereby one postulates that we are not allowed to ask through which slit the electron has traveled, the wave function contains also extrapolated quantities that are not measured, despite the original agenda of that approach.​
And again, in respect of the same general topic, the author HERE says about Erwin Schrodinger's equation:
Hence, you are not allowed to ask where is the electron right now.​
So, whilst the idea of science as being a fully open discipline is laudable - the devil (and the actual truth) is in the detail!! - ;)

Don


 
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Ask more questions, no matter what news source we embrace; there's just too many bad things coming out.

As a youngster I loved the BBC and PBS until I realized they are just part of the agenda like CIA News Network (CNN).

We are screwed, all of us, screwed.

ASK MORE EFFING QUESTIONS! We're in a bar right?

Here is a non-woke question:

Is that Fred's Imports guy a socialist pedophile? Seems like he's trying a little too hard to convince us he's not. #askmorequestions

Would you describe that question as:
  1. Something a reasonable person would ask, in pursuit of knowledge and understanding
  2. Made-up bullshit with weasel punctuation
 
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   #715  

jyoung8607

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In this one you can, and anyone who doesn't like it is welcome to find a different place to hang out.

-Uwe-

PS: If you're not allowed to question it, it's propaganda, not science.
Not seeing anyone objecting to the asking of questions. Questions are, of course, core to the scientific process. I am seeing some folks who feel they were somehow silenced when they receive answers they can't reconcile with their preferred narrative. Those folks aren't asking questions; they're making assertions and feel hurt that they weren't validated. That's the exact opposite of how science works.

I have an account on this forum at the pleasure of the Bar proprietor. If he finds me bothersome, he knows where to find an actual silencing button. Until then, from time to time, I will continue to respectfully invite various folks to introspect upon the statements they make, and how those statements reflect their personal values of honesty, integrity, and accountability.
 
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Fred's Imports

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Definitely #2

Science should be based on science not skewed government data that gets deleted, changed so we can't actually find the truth.

Here's some science for you.


 
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Uwe

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As an example, consider the development of the relatively new field of quantum mechanics:
[...]
Hence, you are not allowed to ask where is the electron right now.​
So, whilst the idea of science as being a fully open discipline is laudable - the devil (and the actual truth) is in the detail!! - ;)
I do not consider that to be a valid analogy. First, we are not talking about things where quantum mechanical effects apply. Second, the notion that "you are not allowed to ask where is the electron right now" strikes me as a purely philosophical viewpoint. Now I'll grant you my understanding of quantum mechanics is 40+ years out of date, but I'll take the other side of that and say: Of course you're allowed to ask, but by asking (i.e. measuring) you may have some effect on the system's behavior.

-Uwe-
 
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   #718  

Uwe

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Interesting scientific analysis of the Ivermectin Covid trials.
Interesting deep-dive into that BBC article by a fairly mainstream and very popular UK medical practitioner:


Yes. Anyone with Youtube channel that's as popular as his, who posts daily videos on Covid matters, and hasn't gotten censored by the Arbiters of Yruth at Youtube, has to be regarded as "mainstream".

-Uwe-
 
   #719  

DV52

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@Uwe: hmm.............. not sure that there is anything particularly philosophical about the "measurement problem" in my example. The paradox is real, the results are repeatable and the truth about the electron's position at any point near the double slit is unanswerable.

As you say, allowing the question to be asked opens-up the experiment mid-point in the electrons' flow - with the consequence that it changes the outcome. So it's only if the question is not allowed, that accepted theories can describe the observable results!

But you are correct in suggesting that I was being more than a tad mischievous in selecting that particular example. It's "spooky science" - that breaks many accepted truisms.

Thanks for the reply - back to the topic at hand!!

Don
 
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Uwe

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Something a reasonable person would ask, in pursuit of knowledge and understanding
OK, allow me to ask some reasonable questions in the pursuit of some knowledge and understanding:

1) What is the all-cause hospitalization and all-cause mortality rate of people who are "fully vaccinated" compare to people who aren't, broken down by matched cohorts (age, co-morbidities, etc)? While I have little doubt that vaccination will reduce the incidence of severe Covid (at least for period of time likely measured in months rather than years), the adverse effects are very real, and some of them are deadly serious. E.g: Within the last week or so, several northern European countries have ceased using one of the MRNA vaccines in younger people because they believe the risk exceeds the benefit in those cohorts. I don't think that reducing the incidence of severe cases of Covid alone is valid endpoint when discussing either public or individual health, because that reduction comes at a cost. Does the benefit actually outweigh the cost? Even more to the point, just showing that the shots produce an antibody response in children without even attempting to show that they reduce the (already extremely rare) incidence of severe cases in them can possibly be considered a valid endpoint, and should not me the basis for approval, much less any mandate, yet we have at least one governor who wants to mandate this. The only valid endpoints are all-cause hospitalization rates and all-cause mortality rates, which take the the adverse effects into account.

2) Given the nature of the adverse effects that have been reported, where are the before-and-after shot bloodwork studies of at least 1000 people? Studies that look at things like D-Dimer, CRP, and immune markers immediately before the first shot, then five days after, and again immediately before the second shot, and five days after. Doctors who've done such tests on a few patients here and there have reported downright shocking results, but of course those are anecdotes, and anecdotes are not data. We've known a good bit about the nature of the adverse effects since early this year, yet nobody seems to be willing to do any substantive studies. Instead, all the blood clots, strokes, heart attacks, and various auto-immune disorders among the vaccinated have been dismissed as "coincidental". "Nothing to see here, move along!" You wanna convince the "hesitant"? Do the studies and prove that there really is nothing to see; it wouldn't be that difficult or expensive (pocket change in the overall scheme of things). In fact, I can't believe that the FDA didn't demand this before granting "full approval" to the BioNTech product.

I could go on, but it's late, and I'll stop here for tonight. If you believe these questions are unreasonable, please explain why.

-Uwe-
 
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