'05 mkV/mk5 Jetta 2.5l BGP - 6-Speed Auto to 5-Speed Manual Swap - Engine Coding ?s

Hello, all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'll try to keep this short and sweet by posting some of the letter I emailed to Ross-Tech's support yesterday.

I am writing to inquire about a few modifications that I would like to make to my car using the VCDS software. The car is a 2005.5 mk5 Jetta 2.5l with a recent conversion from a 6-speed Tiptronic automatic transmission to a 5-speed manual transmission. Because of the change, both the Engine and the ABS Brakes modules are unable to communicate with the Transmission module which was removed as part of the swap.

Currently, the engine module is triggering the MIL and the ABS module has turned on the Traction Control Indicator Lamp. Additionally, the ASR/ESP toggle button in the center console is stuck in the “off” position and does not respond when pressed. If at all possible, I would like some assistance with changing the coding of the affected modules to represent the transmission change.

I am running the VCDS Release 14.10.2.0 (x64) software – the most recently published version at the time of this writing – on a Microsoft Surface Pro 3 running Windows 8.1. Thus far, I have successfully eliminated any A/T-specific coding from the 16-Steering Wheel, 17-Instruments, and 19-CAN Gateway modules, and have removed 02-Auto Trans from the Installation List. At this time, the only modules with recurring faults related to the automatic transmission are 01-Engine and 03-ABS Brakes, but I am unsure of how to proceed.

...

At any rate, my car is due for an inspection in the coming weeks. I need to at least modify the coding in the Engine module so that it will no longer expect communication from the transmission control module, as the vehicle will not pass inspection with the MIL on. Is it possible to make the necessary modifications using VCDS? If so, could you please inform me how to login to these modules so that I may change their coding and eliminate the recurring DTCs? Have I overlooked this information in the service/repair manual literature?

For your reference, I am attaching the initial Auto-Scan which was performed immediately upon my receipt of the VCDS software and interface, as well as the most recent Auto-Scan which reflects all changes that have been made to the various installed modules thus far. I am also attaching screenshots of each of the prompts in question for clarification.
Please note that any faults present for issues with door locking, electric window operation, or the digital radio are expected and can be safely ignored for the time being. There are a few mechanical issues with the locking mechanisms on the doors all around, the windows do behave erratically on occasion, and the factory-installed digital radio has been replaced with an aftermarket unit.

Click to expand...

...and that's the bulk of it. Ross-Tech replied to my email in an unfortunate fashion, saying that they had no experience with this sort of modification. Mirroring their response, I've searched high and low for information about how to properly make this swap, but have been unable to come up with any useful information regarding the modifications which need to be made to the CAN systems after the mechanical work has been completed. In fact, it seems like very few people have ever even attempted this swap at all. As I mentioned in the above email, I have already managed to remove all traces of the automatic transmission from every module with transmission-specific coding except for the two that actually trigger lights in the cluster.

Here's where I'm hoping you folks may be able to help. If anyone has any information on this engine module (06A 906 032 QE), specifically any security access codes, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you or someone you know has a mkV/mk5 Jetta with the 2.5l engine which came from the factory with a 5-speed manual transmission, a complete Auto-Scan may help decipher the engine coding, and might clarify whether or not I will need to replace the ECM with a manual-specific model.

I am attaching the Advanced ID output for the Engine module, as well as the two Auto-Scan files and screenshots mentioned in the above email.

Engine Module Advanced ID Output @ Gist

Initial Auto-Scan @ Gist

Most Recent Auto-Scan @ Gist

Screenshot Album @ Imgur

Thanks all in advance for your time and help.

kolby64 said:

Here's where I'm hoping you folks may be able to help. If anyone has any information on this engine module (06A 906 032 QE), specifically any security access codes, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you or someone you know has a mkV/mk5 Jetta with the 2.5l engine which came from the factory with a 5-speed manual transmission, a complete Auto-Scan may help decipher the engine coding, and might clarify whether or not I will need to replace the ECM with a manual-specific model.

Click to expand...

Volkswagen's parts system makes it fairly clear there's a separate ECU part number for the manual transmission variant. It's not likely there's any coding fix to your problem, although if it's the same hardware, a competent tuner might be able to flash the correct software over-top of what's there now. Maybe talk to Jack @ EPE?

Looks like the right part is ECU part 06A 906 032 QF instead of ECU part 06A 906 032 QE, but that research comes with no warranty.

I don't immediately see indications of a different ABS controller part number. It may be learning the transmission type from the installed ECU.

Jason

Following up to myself...

Armed with the MT ECU part number, I did some Googling and came up with an Auto-Scan of a MT-equipped 2005.5 Jetta. He's got the same ABS controller with the same coding. So, once you swap in a MT ECU, you should be back in business. It's possible you may need to power-cycle the car or re-code the ABS controller with the same value it currently has to force it to refresh.

Jason

kolby64 said:

Hello, all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'll try to keep this short and sweet by posting some of the letter I emailed to Ross-Tech's support yesterday.



If anyone has any information on this engine module (06A 906 032 QE), specifically any security access codes, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you or someone you know has a mkV/mk5 Jetta with the 2.5l engine which came from the factory with a 5-speed manual transmission, a complete Auto-Scan may help decipher the engine coding, and might clarify whether or not I will need to replace the ECM with a manual-specific model.

Click to expand...

Ok, The ECU in your car is ONLY for Automatic transmission and it can not be use in Manual transmission.
So You will need to install /replace Engine ECU.
Part number given above is apply for your car 06A 906 032 QF.
You need to find this ECU , but ECU is not plug and play , it has to be programed due to Immobilizer . Immobilizer will not let car run.
Once you install ECU , ABS should be OK.

Other thing what you need to do is to go to 19-Can Gateway and click on installation list , Uncheck 02-auto transmission . After this SAVE new installation list.(I think you did this , but just in case )

Yup, software in ECU is Auto-Trans specific. It cannot be coded for a manual trans. The OP either needs to buy, install, and match (to the immobilizer) a manual trans ECU, or have manual trans software flashed into his ECU by a tuner or someone else with appropriate tools.

-Uwe-

@jyoung8607 - Shortly after posting this thread, I started digging through the Service Manual some more, and ended up at parts.vw.com where it was confirmed that there is a different part number for the MT engine module. Somehow, I had completely overlooked that in my previous searches.

I also noticed a slight difference in the coding of the engine module in the scan you linked to. I have had absolutely no luck in finding a label file for the BGP engine which details what the coding actually means, but I'm going to take all the fine folks in this thread at their word and not bother digging into it for a cure to the transmission communication issue. That said, the difference in coding between my car and the one you linked to is striking; given the VAG-COM coding system's penchant for using a base 10 number to represent a binary value, a difference of exactly 2 in the engine module looks to me as if the second place bit has been switched off, for lack of better terminology.

You made mention of flashing the engine module. I'm very new to both owning and modifying VWs, and have never interacted with CAN in any way until buying the VCDS a few months ago, so I'm still a bit confused as to how this all works. In theory, if the pinout on the ECM is the same across both versions (automatic and manual), and the hardware inside is the same, the firmware from one should be installable on the hardware of the other without any physical modifications, correct? If this is true, I'd imagine that it would be much cheaper to attempt this than to buy a new ECM.

@Everyone - This immobilizer pairing/matching thing scares me a bit, as I know I probably do not have the necessary knowledge or toolset to do it. If I do end up replacing the ECM, how should I go about getting the immobilizer matched? Is this something that can be done with VCDS?

kolby64 said:

given the VAG-COM coding system's penchant for using a base 10 number to represent a binary value

Click to expand...

VCDS shows codings in the same format as the factory's tool. Codings are not always binary. Individual decimal digits (or groups of them) often have discreet meanings.

kolby64 said:

In theory, if the pinout on the ECM is the same across both versions (automatic and manual), and the hardware inside is the same, the firmware from one should be installable on the hardware of the other without any physical modifications, correct? If this is true, I'd imagine that it would be much cheaper to attempt this than to buy a new ECM.

Click to expand...

I would think so too.

kolby64 said:

@Everyone - This immobilizer pairing/matching thing scares me a bit, as I know I probably do not have the necessary knowledge or toolset to do it. If I do end up replacing the ECM, how should I go about getting the immobilizer matched? Is this something that can be done with VCDS?

Click to expand...

On your car, in principle, it can be done with VCDS, but only if you have the security ("PIN") codes for both your car and whatever car the donor ECU came from, and VCDS does not provide these codes.

-Uwe-

Uwe said:

On your car, in principle, it can be done with VCDS, but only if you have the security ("PIN") codes for both your car and whatever car the donor ECU came from, and VCDS does not provide these codes.

Click to expand...

This may sound like a stupid question, but if I were to buy a used ECM, would a VW dealership have the ability to match the immobilizer without the security codes from the donor car? Is this something they would even do for me if they have the ability to?

I only ask because the price of a new ECM is staggering. :/

kolby64 said:

I also noticed a slight difference in the coding of the engine module in the scan you linked to. I have had absolutely no luck in finding a label file for the BGP engine which details what the coding actually means, but I'm going to take all the fine folks in this thread at their word and not bother digging into it for a cure to the transmission communication issue. That said, the difference in coding between my car and the one you linked to is striking; given the VAG-COM coding system's penchant for using a base 10 number to represent a binary value, a difference of exactly 2 in the engine module looks to me as if the second place bit has been switched off, for lack of better terminology.

Click to expand...

VW are not renowned for having consistent layout and behavior for module codings. Some of them do clearly use a bit-toggle mechanism, and some use random decimal numbers. Also, it's very possible your observation is correct about the coding layout, but an auto ECU may only accept an auto coding value, and vice versa for MT.

kolby64 said:

You made mention of flashing the engine module. I'm very new to both owning and modifying VWs, and have never interacted with CAN in any way until buying the VCDS a few months ago, so I'm still a bit confused as to how this all works. In theory, if the pinout on the ECM is the same across both versions (automatic and manual), and the hardware inside is the same, the firmware from one should be installable on the hardware of the other without any physical modifications, correct? If this is true, I'd imagine that it would be much cheaper to attempt this than to buy a new ECM.

Click to expand...

Indeed it would, but you would need to approach someone who can do that kind of work. A VW dealer can do flash updates, but their tools aren't going to let them flash the "wrong" code to the module, and that's the service you need.

kolby64 said:

@Everyone - This immobilizer pairing/matching thing scares me a bit, as I know I probably do not have the necessary knowledge or toolset to do it. If I do end up replacing the ECM, how should I go about getting the immobilizer matched? Is this something that can be done with VCDS?

Click to expand...

There's a terribly long story (and a terribly long rant) and it amounts to "sort of". VCDS can do it if you have the car's four-digit secret PIN, but VW have stopped giving them to anyone for any reason. The dealer doesn't even have them; the dealer tool phones-home to the factory database and transfers it into the car without the tech seeing it.

If you research a bit, you'll probably find there are tools out there that purport to recover PINs for you. Those are kind of scary. They work for some people, don't work for others, and some people have actually had the tool brick a control module or instrument cluster. The methods they use are essentially security exploits against the car's Immobilizer, and sometimes they don't quite manage to put Humpty back together again after they're done with their meatball brain surgery. In addition, any tool that you find going for less than a four-digit sum is a pirated Chinese clone which adds another layer of sketchy on top. I recommend you stay away from those.

If I'm in your shoes at this point, I have basically two choices:

1. Go to the dealer for a new MT ECU and have them match the Immo system for you. This is the most legit way to do it, but you would need to find a friendly dealer, and it will be expensive. Also, there's a chance they might not be able to do it. The current iteration of the dealer service tool (ODIS) is quite insistent about phoning home to the factory for the exact options your car was built with, and uses that during software updates and coding, which they'll have to do when installing the new ECU. This works well when VW dealers want to hire lower primates to work in the service department. It might not work so well when a car factory-equipped as an automatic shows up in the service department with a manual.

2. Contact an independent or tuner that can flash update your existing ECU. It should be considerably cheaper than a new ECU, and they can preserve or copy-back your existing ECU Immo component match when doing so. I would contact Jack Shapiro at European Parts Emporium. He's on this forum as well... I'm actually surprised he hasn't popped up in this thread yet. Anyway, he's done a similar sort of job for me and I'm very happy with his work.

Jason

I can help..........

Affirmative that is the correct ECU.
I have brand new ecu's or reman with this part #. 06A-906-032QF ( F >> 1K-6-617 331XXXXXX ) BGP

I offer the transfer of VIN/IMMO from your core as part of the process..... no charge typically with units I sell.
Units I sell are test fired before dispatch before they leave.

or

We could have a look at the board to verify the same ME type hardware....... because ME7.1.1 I can tell you, are not all the same.....MCU! Known that for a long time......on Phaeton just learned about a new one!

Loading a factory file or binary to the incorrect type ECU will brick your ECU..... and you are not going to have a good time.


Immo defeat done right for SMOG is also possible with legal proper checksum.
Backups and SKC/CP data absolutely possible.

Please let me know........I can be reached here.
http://www.europeanpartsemporium.com/?page_id=31

Thank you Jason for the ref.

Went to bed early was dead tired........

kolby64 said:

This may sound like a stupid question, but if I were to buy a used ECM, would a VW dealership have the ability to match the immobilizer without the security codes from the donor car? Is this something they would even do for me if they have the ability to?

I only ask because the price of a new ECM is staggering. :/

Click to expand...

No, VW dealer can not adopt Used ECU.
Go to Car-part.com , there is many for manual transmission ECU from $65-$100.

If you decide to buy used ECU , if you want you can contact me .
I can program used ECU.

Jack@European_Parts said:

We could have a look at the board to verify the same ME type hardware....... because ME7.1.1 I can tell you, are not all the same.....MCU! Known that for a long time......on Phaeton just learned about a new one!

Loading a factory file or binary to the incorrect type ECU will brick your ECU..... and you are not going to have a good time.

Immo defeat done right for SMOG is also possible with legal proper checksum.
Backups and SKC/CP data absolutely possible.

Click to expand...

Hi, Jack. Thanks for stopping by the thread!

So there's at least a possibility that I could have my current ECM flashed with the M/T firmware if everything matches up, right? Could you tell me how to go about identifying the hardware and any other info needed?

If there is any way around buying a new ECM at all, I'm all ears. I'm really not thrilled about the idea of spending ~$1,000 for a new computer, so I'd like to avoid that option, if possible.

Jetta said:

No, VW dealer can not adopt Used ECU.
Go to Car-part.com , there is many for manual transmission ECU from $65-$100.

If you decide to buy used ECU , if you want you can contact me .
I can program used ECU.

Click to expand...

Is car-part.com a reputable site? The prices on those ECMs seem almost too good to be true, given the prices I've seen elsewhere.

kolby64 said:

Is car-part.com a reputable site? The prices on those ECMs seem almost too good to be true, given the prices I've seen elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is most popular site when it comes to used parts.
I purchase many things form it and never had problem. It is basically site where all wrecking yards post them stuff what they have for sale.

The thing is that 2.5 L ECU is not very popular , they do not have problems at all( at least I never seen one ), so they probably sitting on shelf for ever, and they want to sell it . So the price is very low.

kolby64 said:

Is car-part.com a reputable site? The prices on those ECMs seem almost too good to be true, given the prices I've seen elsewhere.

Click to expand...

It is not a selling site per say. It simply allows all the recyclers (junkyards) to list items they have for sale. It's OK, although they mostly cater to professionals.

You can pick up most of ECUs there for around $100. If you know how to read / write EEPROMs and decipher the PINs out of them that's all you should spend. If not, there is a bunch of guys on eBay who can do it for you for little money. In that case, you will be out $250 -$300 most.

...and then, you can sell your, not needed ECU on eBay for $250, because they are rare and now you will have PIN for it... and so, you might get your ECM 4 free

..see how it works, easy .

BR, Andy

We have bought several items from dismantlers using car-part.com with a reasonable amount of success. One upside is that some places aren't too familiar with differences between control modules so you might get several "brain boxes" for the price of one. Lately it seems eBay is just as likely to contain various parts for sale, with the bonus of instant payment, no need to interact over the phone, etc.

Andy said:

Lately it seems eBay is just as likely to contain various parts for sale, with the bonus of instant payment, no need to interact over the phone, etc.

Click to expand...

Andy, there is many out there buying on CarPart and selling on eBay even for a 2-8 times the price, exploiting some of the "not so smart" shoppers . That ECM you get on CarPart for $100 gets listed on eBay for $500 or even $800. The rub is, the guy selling it on eBay doesn't even have this thing in stock. As soon as you click buy it now, they buy it on CarPart and resend it to you pocketing $400 - $700. Not bad for a trip to the Post Office and if you go there a few times a week, you get the picture $$$$ .

The problem is, it gets harder to find the next sucker , luckily there are automotive forums and they are prime hunting ground .

Andy said:

We have bought several items from dismantlers using car-part.com with a reasonable amount of success. One upside is that some places aren't too familiar with differences between control modules so you might get several "brain boxes" for the price of one.

Click to expand...

Got to verify part number.

BR, Andy.