Hi all. As the title states, I'm interested in the possibility of using two ECUs from an R5 manual transmission to run a US V10 Touareg. I had a V10 for a while and absolutely loved it, but ended up trading it in on a newer Golf because I missed shifting gears. I'd like to try and find a way to run the V10 with a manual transmission without having to have a whole separate standalone ECU/engine controller (that A: is $10-15k and B: doesn't exist for the Touareg, yet.)
The biggest issue is with the normal ECU wanting and needing to see input from the automatic transmission and the coding associated with that to run without being in limp mode or throwing CELs constantly. My suspicion is that this isn't something that can be simply changed in coding with VCDS like in the A4 6 speed swap that I did. I've spent a fair amount of time reading and researching on some of the ECU editing websites that actually edit the maps and eeprom, but that quickly becomes an enormous job of searching through the hexadecimal coding and trying to figure out what signals go to what and getting things changed on the canbus side to make sure no CELs or errors show up. Which then quickly induces flashbacks and gagging while thinking about pouring over code in the C+ programming classes I had to take as an engineering student. It's still an option, and doable with some of the Arduino and canhack programs available, just not ideal.
My next thought was to find a way to convince the transmission control unit (TCU) that it was still hooked up and get the motor to run without actually having the auto transmission, but this also becomes complicated because of the canbus communication and as the engine MAPs are all set up to run for the auto I'm not sure this would work correctly without throwing CEL all the time.
The third thought that I've come to is to use two of the R5 ECUs from a manual R5 touareg in place of the master/slave V10 ECU setup as the V10 is practically two R5 motors sandwiched together. With the V10 one ECU controls the right bank, one the left, including turbos, injectors, EGR valves (this may only be on the master), etc. While I know this is a crude representation of how it works, I think it would be a very close starting point to begin trying to mesh them together. They both use the J623 engine control module, the V10 has an additional one labeled a J624, however based on what I've been able to read about them they are the exact same unit and part number. On the first install into the vehicle one gets labeled the master and one the slave based solely on the location of where they are plugged into the vehicle's wiring loom. Once in place they cannot be swapped for each other. There are a few issues that I would still want to work out before going forward with any further planning/testing of this which is why I'm here. You guys have a much more in depth knowledge of the ECU and canbus system through the VCDS interface that I'd like to use to do most of this ridiculousness if possible.
First, I'd like to know how the ECUs get 'coded' as master and slave. Is this something that is in the software, or is it somehow managed by the canbus determined by the order of the ECUs in the car based on the wiring? If the second option is the case, using the R5 ECUs should work the same way. Maybe? Can this be coded/recoded via VCDS? If I were able to use the R5 ECUs from the manual transmission Touareg, the maps would be much more appropriate and things would likely run much more smoothly.
Second, I've been searching for the past week at least for a pinout of the ECU connectors in the R5 vs the V10 to no avail. I'm likely going to have to get a Bentley or Elsawin to compare the two, any recommendations between the two of them? I would want to make sure each pin was getting the same input and appropriate signal to make sure things work like they should from the factory. This may get tricky if the slave/2nd R5 ECU would want to try to control some of the general engine functions like the alternator, A/C, oil pressure, etc, or they might be able to speak to each other via canbus and not freak out about it. Definitely a big unknown.
Third, immobilizer. I'd likely have to have/get an immobilizer delete tune on the ECUs to run them in tandem since they would come from two different cars, but would it be possible to leave one of them active and recode the keys to that particular main/master ECU to allow the immobilizer to still function? Or would it just be easier to turn off the immobilizer function from both of them?
Fourth, the rest of the car. By using software in the ECUs that works with manual gearbox cars and keeping the same convenience and body control units, the rest of the car should still function as normal. I think. The abs would need speed signals and brake pedal sensor information, however that would be coming from the canbus. And as long as the ECU was getting the appropriate speed signal from the gearbox the cruise function and traction control should be functional since that's likely split by the transfer case and the ABS system anyways.
Fifth, mechanical stuff. I'm less worried about mating a manual gearbox up to the engine than I am of all of the above electrical stuff. I think either modifying the bellhousing of the 08d manual gearbox to mate to the V10 in place of the 09d auto box or making an adapter plate to make sure the transmission input shaft and flywheel are properly spaced would be the route to take. I know the 09d Aisin auto box is a workhorse and pretty darned tough, I just want to be able to shift my own gears. The driveshafts may have to be altered as well because of slightly different mounting positions and lengths of the transmissions. The good thing is from what I can tell from the mechanical drawings the transfer cases seem to mount up the same way at the rear of the gearbox. Then you've got all the little stuff that can likely be sourced from a wrecked R5 or one of the US Cayenne's with a manual transmission like the shifter, the pedals, clutch slave cylinder, etc. Modifying the Touareg ECU cluster to reflect a manual transmission and potentially notice the gear you're in instead of the P/R/N/D that's in the upper right corner would be tricky too. I think the R5s in ROW only got the red LED MFD instead of the multicolor one in the V10s, but I wonder if there's a way thought VCDS to recode the MFD to manual like in the earlier A4 swaps?
There's also the concern that the R5 only puts out about 400NM and I've seen up to about 475NM tuned, while the V10 hits 750NM. While I can't find any definite torque limits on the parts of the 08d on any of the VW ssp documents I've been able to find online, that's definitely quite a difference and there's no telling how long, if at all, that manual transmission would last behind the V10 beast. It would for sure need a custom clutch and I don't know if a flywheel is available from another VW (Amarok maybe?) that would be the correct size for the V10 bellhousing. The 6 speed Amarok transmission would be a good fit as well, except based on the ssp 464 the max transmissible torque is 400NM. I can't seem to find max torque limit of the 08d on the ssp 299 or 302 for the touareg. It would be a trial and error and any sort of break would result in a gearbox teardown and build up if possible with stronger parts. Not sure if the main shaft or the gears would be the weak link.
So I come to the VCDS experts to ask if any of this is possible via VCDS and or even plausible in action. Either way I've been looking around for a V10 from a wrecked car that I'd be able to grab the ECUs and wiring harness from as well to build up in the garage on a test bench outside of the car to make it work there first before trying it in a truck. Much easier as far as switching parts and not having to drop the motor for each redo. This would definitely make swapping gearboxes and options easier as well. Plus, if there needs to be a spacer/adapter machined I'd have to take the motor/gearbox combo to a race machine shop anyways for the drawings and specs to be the most accurate.
Thanks for reading! I look forward to comments and hopefully a discussion
-Ryan
The biggest issue is with the normal ECU wanting and needing to see input from the automatic transmission and the coding associated with that to run without being in limp mode or throwing CELs constantly. My suspicion is that this isn't something that can be simply changed in coding with VCDS like in the A4 6 speed swap that I did. I've spent a fair amount of time reading and researching on some of the ECU editing websites that actually edit the maps and eeprom, but that quickly becomes an enormous job of searching through the hexadecimal coding and trying to figure out what signals go to what and getting things changed on the canbus side to make sure no CELs or errors show up. Which then quickly induces flashbacks and gagging while thinking about pouring over code in the C+ programming classes I had to take as an engineering student. It's still an option, and doable with some of the Arduino and canhack programs available, just not ideal.
My next thought was to find a way to convince the transmission control unit (TCU) that it was still hooked up and get the motor to run without actually having the auto transmission, but this also becomes complicated because of the canbus communication and as the engine MAPs are all set up to run for the auto I'm not sure this would work correctly without throwing CEL all the time.
The third thought that I've come to is to use two of the R5 ECUs from a manual R5 touareg in place of the master/slave V10 ECU setup as the V10 is practically two R5 motors sandwiched together. With the V10 one ECU controls the right bank, one the left, including turbos, injectors, EGR valves (this may only be on the master), etc. While I know this is a crude representation of how it works, I think it would be a very close starting point to begin trying to mesh them together. They both use the J623 engine control module, the V10 has an additional one labeled a J624, however based on what I've been able to read about them they are the exact same unit and part number. On the first install into the vehicle one gets labeled the master and one the slave based solely on the location of where they are plugged into the vehicle's wiring loom. Once in place they cannot be swapped for each other. There are a few issues that I would still want to work out before going forward with any further planning/testing of this which is why I'm here. You guys have a much more in depth knowledge of the ECU and canbus system through the VCDS interface that I'd like to use to do most of this ridiculousness if possible.
First, I'd like to know how the ECUs get 'coded' as master and slave. Is this something that is in the software, or is it somehow managed by the canbus determined by the order of the ECUs in the car based on the wiring? If the second option is the case, using the R5 ECUs should work the same way. Maybe? Can this be coded/recoded via VCDS? If I were able to use the R5 ECUs from the manual transmission Touareg, the maps would be much more appropriate and things would likely run much more smoothly.
Second, I've been searching for the past week at least for a pinout of the ECU connectors in the R5 vs the V10 to no avail. I'm likely going to have to get a Bentley or Elsawin to compare the two, any recommendations between the two of them? I would want to make sure each pin was getting the same input and appropriate signal to make sure things work like they should from the factory. This may get tricky if the slave/2nd R5 ECU would want to try to control some of the general engine functions like the alternator, A/C, oil pressure, etc, or they might be able to speak to each other via canbus and not freak out about it. Definitely a big unknown.
Third, immobilizer. I'd likely have to have/get an immobilizer delete tune on the ECUs to run them in tandem since they would come from two different cars, but would it be possible to leave one of them active and recode the keys to that particular main/master ECU to allow the immobilizer to still function? Or would it just be easier to turn off the immobilizer function from both of them?
Fourth, the rest of the car. By using software in the ECUs that works with manual gearbox cars and keeping the same convenience and body control units, the rest of the car should still function as normal. I think. The abs would need speed signals and brake pedal sensor information, however that would be coming from the canbus. And as long as the ECU was getting the appropriate speed signal from the gearbox the cruise function and traction control should be functional since that's likely split by the transfer case and the ABS system anyways.
Fifth, mechanical stuff. I'm less worried about mating a manual gearbox up to the engine than I am of all of the above electrical stuff. I think either modifying the bellhousing of the 08d manual gearbox to mate to the V10 in place of the 09d auto box or making an adapter plate to make sure the transmission input shaft and flywheel are properly spaced would be the route to take. I know the 09d Aisin auto box is a workhorse and pretty darned tough, I just want to be able to shift my own gears. The driveshafts may have to be altered as well because of slightly different mounting positions and lengths of the transmissions. The good thing is from what I can tell from the mechanical drawings the transfer cases seem to mount up the same way at the rear of the gearbox. Then you've got all the little stuff that can likely be sourced from a wrecked R5 or one of the US Cayenne's with a manual transmission like the shifter, the pedals, clutch slave cylinder, etc. Modifying the Touareg ECU cluster to reflect a manual transmission and potentially notice the gear you're in instead of the P/R/N/D that's in the upper right corner would be tricky too. I think the R5s in ROW only got the red LED MFD instead of the multicolor one in the V10s, but I wonder if there's a way thought VCDS to recode the MFD to manual like in the earlier A4 swaps?
There's also the concern that the R5 only puts out about 400NM and I've seen up to about 475NM tuned, while the V10 hits 750NM. While I can't find any definite torque limits on the parts of the 08d on any of the VW ssp documents I've been able to find online, that's definitely quite a difference and there's no telling how long, if at all, that manual transmission would last behind the V10 beast. It would for sure need a custom clutch and I don't know if a flywheel is available from another VW (Amarok maybe?) that would be the correct size for the V10 bellhousing. The 6 speed Amarok transmission would be a good fit as well, except based on the ssp 464 the max transmissible torque is 400NM. I can't seem to find max torque limit of the 08d on the ssp 299 or 302 for the touareg. It would be a trial and error and any sort of break would result in a gearbox teardown and build up if possible with stronger parts. Not sure if the main shaft or the gears would be the weak link.
So I come to the VCDS experts to ask if any of this is possible via VCDS and or even plausible in action. Either way I've been looking around for a V10 from a wrecked car that I'd be able to grab the ECUs and wiring harness from as well to build up in the garage on a test bench outside of the car to make it work there first before trying it in a truck. Much easier as far as switching parts and not having to drop the motor for each redo. This would definitely make swapping gearboxes and options easier as well. Plus, if there needs to be a spacer/adapter machined I'd have to take the motor/gearbox combo to a race machine shop anyways for the drawings and specs to be the most accurate.
Thanks for reading! I look forward to comments and hopefully a discussion
-Ryan
