Cheaters? Recalls? Discuss

   #422  

Sacha35

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How long can the rest of the world just sit buy and watch, it is time now to stop these con artist in there tracks once for all. They tried mass extinction in two world wars now they are trying the same thing but in a different form how can our governments not see this.
 
   #423  

PetrolDave

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How long can the rest of the world just sit buy and watch, it is time now to stop these con artist in there tracks once for all. They tried mass extinction in two world wars now they are trying the same thing but in a different form how can our governments not see this.
The UK Governments have traditionally been too weak to stand up to multi-national companies, this is yet anther example of that...
 
   #424  

Jack@European_Parts

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It is now huh?

"We report any irregularities to the authorities because full clarification is our top priority," Audi CEO Rupert Stadler said in a statement. "We did so without delay also in this case."
 
   #428  

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I'm sorry to transform Jack's news thread (no sarcasm, read most of the links) into the discussion thread it's supposed to be.
Now, my car is a 1.2 TDI from the EA189 series, meaning it had the emissions scandal software running on it. Over the past few years it had a few of the SW updates to make it cleaner.
Side effects being a slightly higher fuel consumption and poor reliability of the EGR and DPF system.

Now the time will inevitably come to replace the small, fun sized Polo with something different.
Diesel will become more and more obsolete in public opinion and the reliability and need for new stuff will take their toll.
Furthermore, the Polo isn't the ideal family car.

Now, if the better half has any say on it, it will probably be either a hybrid or a petrol (gas) powered car.
The problem is, she's quite the eco warrior, these new direct injection turbocharged engines running produce ever more emissions (NOx) in the search of efficiency.
I heard or read <citation needed> that a modern TSI engine will produce more NOx than its diesel powered equivalent.

So I guess the next best thing is to get something with an electric engine, either lone or in parallel with fossiel fuels.
But then these batteries... they're dirtier than dirty to make with all the nasty chemicals and huge distances that are covered by the raw materials.

So is there any way of driving a clean car in the future? I'd say, keep driving the current thing.
Producing a new one will never save the emissions of taking this one off the road...
 
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   #430  

Uwe

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I heard or read <citation needed> that a modern TSI engine will produce more NOx than its diesel powered equivalent.
I'm not sure I believe that. I do believe that TSI engines produce far more particulates than a modern TDI. The tail pipe on my TDIs is amazingly clean, while on the T(F)SIs, it's coated with soot. No, not like a pre-DPF diesel, but still... This is why there's now talk of requiring particle filters on gasoline engines.

But even if it is true, ask yourself whether it really makes any difference outside of certain densely populated urban areas. In most places, that extra bit of NOx is irrelevant, like peeing in the ocean.

So I guess the next best thing is to get something with an electric engine, either lone or in parallel with fossiel fuels.
But then these batteries... they're dirtier than dirty to make with all the nasty chemicals and huge distances that are covered by the raw materials.
I'm not convinced that li-ion batteries will be as "dirty" in the long run as some people currently make them out to be. In the US, they're not even classified as hazardous waste. Sure, lithium and cobalt mining is a dirty business, but in the long run, most of those materials can be recovered via recycling. Right now this isn't economically feasible and it's cheaper to use virgin raw materials, but if as much automotive electrification happens as some folks predict, I think that's likely to change.

Personally, I would not own a pure electric as my only car. I'm sure they're great for commuting and going shopping, but I regularly take 1700 km road trips (16 hours on the road, split over two days). I've used Tesla's trip planner to see how much time such a car would cost me. Even with a full, overnight charge at my usual stop-over, driving an S100D instead of a fuel-powered car would add 3-1/2 to 4 hours waiting around at five different charging stations. No thanks!

The current crop of Plug-in Hybrids (such as Andy's A3 e-tron or the various GTE models VW sells in Europe with the same drivetrain) seem to be a nice compromise. You can run them purely on electricity around town, and just fill them up with fuel like a normal car on the road. But the penalty you pay for this is an absurd level of complexity in the systems. I would not want to own one of these after the warranty has expired! Read the SSPs before you buy one. ;)

-Uwe-
 
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   #431  

Jack@European_Parts

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But even if it is true, ask yourself whether it really makes any difference outside of certain densely populated urban areas. In most places, that extra bit of NOx is irrelevant, like peeing in the ocean.


I don't think I agree with the irrelevancy of this to be trivialized being bifurcated like peeing in the ocean analogy, albeit, have you seen what is actually coming out of a TSI tailpipe in regard to NOx & on the road besides the observation of soot you can actually see on tailpipe tips?


image.jpg
 
   #432  

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http://www.ecomaine.org/lithiumionbatteryfire_2018/

https://nypost.com/2017/01/13/battery-causes-small-explosion-in-city-garbage-truck/


https://yosemite.epa.gov/osw/rcra.nsf/documents/cc7d81df307086c085256611005ac8ec

Code:
    • The term ‘lithium batteries' as used in this letter applies only to those batteries or cells commonly referred to as lithium-sulfur dioxide batteries. At this time, EPA does not have sufficient information to make a blanket determination as to whether lithium batteries using other cathode materials (i.e., thionyl chloride (SOC12), polycarbon monofluoride ((CF)X), manganese dioxide (Mn0), iodine (I), silver oxide (Ag2O), silver chromate (Ag2Cr04), vanadium pentoxide (V205), iron sulfide (FeS), copper oxide (CuO), and lead bismuthate (Bi2Pb2O5)) exhibit the characteristic of reactivity. Consequently, handlers of these lithium batteries must evaluate them against the reactivity characteristic identified in S261.23 as well as the other hazardous waste characteristics to determine if the batteries should be handled as hazardous wastes.
Faxback 11033
    • Based on a careful review of the available data and information, EPA has concluded that lithium-sulfur dioxide batteries clearly exhibit the characteristic of reactivity as defined in 40 CFR 261.23. Handlers of these wastes must, therefore, comply with all applicable standards under 40 CFR Parts 262 to 266, and 124, 270, and 271. Under these standards, the land disposal of reactive waste is prohibited unless the waste is treated or otherwise rendered non-reactive. (See 264.312 and 265.312).
    • Under 40 CFR 261.23, a solid waste is considered to be reactive if a representative sample of the waste has any of the following properties:
    • (1) It is normally unstable and readily undergoes violent change without detonating.
    • (2) It reacts violently with water.
    • (3) It forms potentially explosive mixtures with water.
    • (4) When mixed with water, it generates toxic gases, vapors, or fumes in a quantity sufficient to present a danger to human health or the environment.
    • (5) It is a cyanide or sulfide bearing waste which, when exposed to pH conditions between 2 and 12.5, can generate toxic gases, ,vapors, or fumes in a quantity sufficient to present a danger to human health or the environment.
    • (6) It is capable of detonation or explosive reaction if it is subjected to a strong initiating source or if heated under confinement.
    • (7) It is readily capable of detonation or explosive decomposition or reaction at standard temperature and pressure.
    • (8) It is a forbidden explosive as defined in 49 CFR 173.53 or a Class B explosive as defined in 49 CFR 173.88.
    • The lithium in Li/So2 cells will form potentially explosive hydrogen gas when mixed with water (261.23 ( a) (3)), and Li/S02 cells are capable of violent rupture or reaction if subjected to a strong initiating source or if heated under confinement (261.23 (a) (6)). However, of primary concern is the potential, under existing management practices, for components of the batteries to generate toxic gases, vapors, or fumes in a quantity sufficient to present a danger to human health or the environment when those components are mixed with water or exposed to certain pH conditions (261.23 (a) (4) and (a) (5)).

Code:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/173.185
49 CFR 173.185 - Lithium cells and batteries.


§ 173.185 Lithium cells and batteries.
As used in this section, lithium cell(s) or battery(ies) includes both lithium metal and lithium ion chemistries. Equipment means the device or apparatus for which the lithium cells or batteries will provide electrical power for its operation. Consignment means one or more packages of hazardous materials accepted by an operatorfrom one shipper at one time and at one address, receipted for in one lot and moving to one consignee at one destination address.
(a)Classification.
(1) Each lithium cell or battery must be of the type proven to meet the criteria in part III, sub-section 38.3 of the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria (IBR; see § 171.7 of this subchapter). Lithium cells and batteries are subject to these tests regardless of whether the cells used to construct the battery are of atested type.
(i) Cells and batteries manufactured according to a type meeting the requirements of sub-section 38.3 of the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Revision 3, Amendment 1 or any subsequent revision and amendment applicable at the date of the type testing may continue to be transported, unless otherwise provided in this subchapter.
(ii) Cell and battery types only meeting the requirements of the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Revision 3, are no longer valid. However, cells and batteries manufactured in conformity with such types before July 2003 may continue to be transported if all other applicable requirements are fulfilled.
(2) Each person who manufactures lithium cells or batteries must create a record of satisfactory completion of the testing required by this paragraph prior to offering the lithium cell or battery for transport and must:
(i) Maintain this record for as long as that design is offered for transportation and for one year thereafter; and
(ii) Make this record available to an authorized representative of the Federal, state or local government upon request.
(3) Except for cells or batteries meeting the requirements of paragraph (c) of this section, each lithium cell or battery must:
(i) Incorporate a safety venting device or be designed to preclude a violent rupture under conditions normally incident to transport;
(ii) Be equipped with means of preventing external short circuits; and
(iii) Be equipped with an means of preventing dangerous reverse current flow (e.g., diodes or fuses) if a battery contains cells, or a series of cells that are connected in parallel.
(b)Packaging.
(1) Each package offered for transportation containing lithium cells or batteries, including lithium cells or batteries packed with, or contained in, equipment, must meet all applicable requirements of subpart B of this part.
(2) Lithium cells or batteries, including lithium cells or batteries packed with, or contained in, equipment, must be packaged in a manner to prevent:
(i) Short circuits;
(ii) Movement within the outer package; and
(iii) Accidental activation of the equipment.
(3) For packages containing lithium cells or batteries offered for transportation:
(i) The lithium cells or batteries must be placed in non-metallic inner packagings that completely enclose the cells or batteries, and separate the cells or batteries from contact with equipment, other devices, or conductive materials (e.g., metal) in the packaging.
(ii) The inner packagings containing lithium cells or batteries must be placed in one of the followingpackagings meeting the requirements of part 178, subparts L and M, of this subchapter at the Packing Group II level:
(A) Metal (4A, 4B, 4N), wooden (4C1, 4C2, 4D, 4F), fiberboard (4G), or solid plastic (4H1, 4H2) box;
(B) Metal (1A2, 1B2, 1N2), plywood (1D), fiber (1G), or plastic (1H2) drum;
(C) Metal (3A2, 3B2) or plastic (3H2) jerrican.
(iii) When packed with equipment, lithium cells or batteries must:
(A) Be placed in inner packagings that completely enclose the cell or battery, then placed in an outer packaging. The completed package for the cells or batteries must meet the Packing Group II performance requirements as specified in paragraph (b)(3)(ii) of this section; or
(B) Be placed in inner packagings that completely enclose the cell or battery, then placed with equipment in a package that meets the Packing Group II performance requirements as specified inparagraph (b)(3)(ii) of this section.
(4) When lithium cells or batteries are contained in equipment:
(i) The outer packaging, when used, must be constructed of suitable material of adequate strength and design in relation to the capacity and intended use of the packaging, unless the lithium cells or batteries are afforded equivalent protection by the equipment in which they are contained;
(ii) Equipment must be secured against movement within the outer packaging and be packed so as to prevent accidental operation during transport; and
(iii) Any spare lithium cells or batteries packed with the equipment must be packaged in accordance with paragraph (b)(3) of this section.
(5) Lithium batteries that weigh 12 kg (26.5 pounds) or more and have a strong, impact-resistant outer casing and assemblies of such batteries, may be packed in strong outer packagings; in protective enclosures (for example, in fully enclosed or wooden slatted crates); or on pallets or other handling devices, instead of packages meeting the UN performance packaging requirements in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) and (b)(3)(iii) of this section. Batteries or battery assemblies must be secured to prevent inadvertentmovement, and the terminals may not support the weight of other superimposed elements. Batteries or battery assemblies packaged in accordance with this paragraph are not permitted for transportation bypassenger-carrying aircraft, and may be transported by cargo aircraft only if approved by the Associate Administrator.
(6) Except for transportation by aircraft, the following rigid large packagings are authorized for a single battery, including for a battery contained in equipment, meeting provisions in paragraphs (b)(1) and (2) of this section and the requirements of part 178, subparts P and Q, of this subchapter at the Packing Group II level:
(i) Metal (50A, 50B, 50N);
(ii) Rigid plastic (50H);
(iii) Wooden (50C, 50D, 50F);
(iv) Rigid fiberboard (50G).
(c)Exceptions for smaller cells or batteries. Other than as specifically stated below, a packagecontaining lithium cells or batteries, or lithium cells or batteries packed with, or contained in, equipment, that meets the conditions of this paragraph is excepted from the requirements in subparts C through H ofpart 172 of this subchapter and the UN performance packaging requirements in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) and (iii) of this section under the following conditions and limitations.
(1)Size limits.
(i) The Watt-hour (Wh) rating may not exceed 20 Wh for a lithium ion cell or 100 Wh for a lithium ion battery. After December 31, 2015, each lithium ion battery subject to this provision must be marked with the Watt-hour rating on the outside case.
(ii) The lithium content may not exceed 1 g for a lithium metal cell or 2 g for a lithium metal battery.
(iii) Except when lithium metal cells or batteries are packed with or contained in equipment in quantities not exceeding 5 kg net weight, the outer package that contains lithium metal cells or batteries must be marked: “PRIMARY LITHIUM BATTERIES - FORBIDDEN FOR TRANSPORT ABOARD PASSENGERAIRCRAFT” or “LITHIUM METAL BATTERIES - FORBIDDEN FOR TRANSPORT ABOARD PASSENGERAIRCRAFT”, or labeled with a “CARGO AIRCRAFT ONLY” label specified in § 172.448 of this subchapter.
(iv) For transportation by highway or rail only, the lithium content of the cell and battery may be increased to 5 g for a lithium metal cell or 25 g for a lithium metal battery and 60 Wh for a lithium ion cell or 300 Wh for a lithium ion battery provided the outer package is marked: “LITHIUM BATTERIES - FORBIDDEN FOR TRANSPORT ABOARD AIRCRAFT AND VESSEL.”
(v) The marking specified in paragraphs (c)(1)(iii) and (iv) of this section must have a background of contrasting color, and the letters in the marking must be:
(A) At least 6 mm (0.25 inch) in height on packages having a gross weight of 30 kg (66 pounds) or less, except that smaller font may be used as necessary when package dimensions so require.
(B) At least 12 mm (0.5 inch) in height on packages having a gross weight of more than 30 kg (66 pounds).
(vi) Except when lithium cells or batteries are packed with, or contained in, equipment, each packagemust not exceed 30 kg (66 pounds) gross weight.
(2)Packaging. Each package must be rigid unless the cell or battery is contained in equipment and is afforded equivalent protection by the equipment in which it is contained. Except when lithium cells or batteries are contained in equipment, each package of lithium cells or batteries, or the completed packagewhen packed with equipment must be capable of withstanding a 1.2 meter drop test, in any orientation, without damage to the cells or batteries contained in the package, without shifting of the contents that would allow battery-to-battery (or cell-to-cell) contact, and without release of the contents of the package.
(3)Hazard communication. Each package must display the lithium battery mark except when a packagecontains button cell batteries installed in equipment (including circuit boards), or no more than four lithium cells or two lithium batteries contained in equipment, where there are not more than two packages in the consignment.
(i) The mark must indicate the UN number, `UN3090' for lithium metal cells or batteries or `UN 3480' for lithium ion cells or batteries. Where the lithium cells or batteries are contained in, or packed with, equipment, the UN number `UN3091' or `UN 3481' as appropriate must be indicated. Where a packagecontains lithium cells or batteries assigned to different UN numbers, all applicable UN numbers must be indicated on one or more marks. The package must be of such size that there is adequate space to affix the mark on one side without the mark being folded.
er30mr17.034.gif
(A) The mark must be in the form of a rectangle with hatched edging. The mark must be not less than 120 mm (4.7 inches) wide by 110 mm (4.3 inches) high and the minimum width of the hatching must be 5 mm (0.2 inches) except markings of 105 mm (4.1 inches) wide by 74 mm (2.9 inches) high may be used on a package containing lithium batteries when the package is too small for the larger mark; (B) The symbols and letters must be black on white or suitable contrasting background and the hatching must be red; (C) The “*” must be replaced by the appropriate UN number(s) and the “**” must be replaced by a telephone number for additional information; and (D) Where dimensions are not specified, all features shall be in approximate proportion to those shown. (ii) For transportation by highway, rail or vessel, the provisions in 49 CFR 173.185(c)(3) (revised as of October 1, 2016) for marking packages, including the exceptions from marking, may continue to be used until December 31, 2018. For transportation by aircraft, the provisions for the lithium battery handlingmarking in 49 CFR 173.185(c)(3)(ii) (revised as of October 1, 2016) may continue to be used until December 31, 2018. (4)Air transportation. (i) For transportation by aircraft, lithium cells and batteries may not exceed the limits in the following table. The limits on the maximum number of batteries and maximum net quantity of batteries in the following table may not be combined in the same package:
ContentsLithium metal cells and/or batteries with a lithium content not more than 0.3 gLithium metal cells with a lithium content more than 0.3 g but not more than 1gLithium metal batteries with a lithium content more than 0.3 g but not more than 2 gLithium ion cells and/or batteries with a Watt-hour rating not more than 2.7 WhLithium ion cells with a Watt-hour rating more than 2.7 Wh but not more than 20 WhLithium ion batteries with a Watt-hour rating more than 2.7 Wh but not more than 100 Wh
Maximum number of cells/batteries per packageNo Limit8 cells2 batteriesNo Limit8 cells2 batteries.
Maximum net quantity (mass) per package2.5 kgn/an/a2.5 kgn/an/a.
(ii) When packages required to bear the lithium battery mark in paragraph (c)(3)(i) are placed in anoverpack, the lithium battery mark must either be clearly visible through the overpack, or the handling mark must also be affixed on the outside of the overpack, and the overpack must be marked with the word “OVERPACK.” (iii) Each shipment with packages required to bear the handling marking must include an indication on the air waybill of compliance with this paragraph (c)(4) (or the applicable ICAO Packing Instruction), when an air waybill is used. (iv) For lithium batteries packed with, or contained in, equipment, the number of batteries in eachpackage is limited to the minimum number required to power the piece of equipment, plus two spares, and the total net quantity (mass) of the lithium cells or batteries in the completed package must not exceed 5 kg. (v) Each person who prepares a package for transport containing lithium cells or batteries, including cells or batteries packed with, or contained in, equipment in accordance with the conditions and limitations in this paragraph, must receive adequate instruction on these conditions and limitations, commensurate with their responsibilities. (vi) A package that exceeds the number or quantity (mass) limits in the table shown in (c)(4) is subject to all applicable requirements of this subchapter, except that a package containing no more than 2.5 kg lithium metal cells or batteries or 10 kg lithium ion cells or batteries is not subject to the UN performance packaging requirements in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) of this section when the package displays both the lithium battery handling marking and the Class 9 label. This paragraph does not apply to batteries or cells packed with or contained in equipment. (d)Lithium cells or batteries shipped for disposal or recycling. A lithium cell or battery, including a lithium cell or battery contained in equipment, that is transported by motor vehicle to a permitted storage facility or disposal site, or for purposes of recycling, is excepted from the testing and record keeping requirements of paragraph (a) and the specification packaging requirements of paragraph (b)(3) of this section, when packed in a strong outer packaging conforming to the requirements of §§ 173.24 and 173.24a. A lithium cell or battery that meets the size, packaging, and hazard communication conditions in paragraph (c)(1)-(3) of this section is excepted from subparts C through H of part 172 of this subchapter. (e)Low production runs and prototypes. Low production runs (i.e., annual production runs consisting of not more than 100 lithium cells or batteries), or prototype lithium cells or batteries, including equipment transported for purposes of testing, are excepted from the testing and record keeping requirements ofparagraph (a) of this section, provided: (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(4) of this section, each cell or battery is individually packed in a non-metallic inner packaging, inside an outer packaging, and is surrounded by cushioning material that is non-combustible and non-conductive or contained in equipment. Equipment must be constructed orpackaged in a manner as to prevent accidental operation during transport; (2) Appropriate measures shall be taken to minimize the effects of vibration and shocks and preventmovement of the cells or batteries within the package that may lead to damage and a dangerous condition during transport. Cushioning material that is non-combustible and non-conductive may be used to meet this requirement; (3) The lithium cells or batteries are packed in inner packagings or contained in equipment. The inner packaging or equipment is placed in one of the following outer packagings that meet the requirements of part 178, subparts L and M, of this subchapter at the Packing Group I level. Cells and batteries, including equipment of different sizes, shapes or masses must be placed into an outer packaging of a tested design type listed in this section provided the total gross mass of the package does not exceed the gross mass for which the design type has been tested. A cell or battery with a net mass of more than 30 kg is limited to one cell or battery per outer packaging; (i) Metal (4A, 4B, 4N), wooden (4C1, 4C2, 4D, 4F), or solid plastic (4H2) box; (ii) Metal (1A2, 1B2, 1N2), plywood (1D), or plastic (1H2) drum. (4) Lithium batteries, including lithium batteries contained in equipment, that weigh 12 kg (26.5 pounds) or more and have a strong, impact-resistant outer casing or assemblies of such batteries, may be packed in strong outer packagings, in protective enclosures (for example, in fully enclosed or wooden slatted crates), or on pallets or other handling devices, instead of packages meeting the UN performancepackaging requirements in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) and (iii) of this section. The battery or battery assembly must be secured to prevent inadvertent movement, and the terminals may not support the weight of other superimposed elements; (5) Irrespective of the limit specified in column (9B) of the § 172.101 Hazardous Materials Table, the battery or battery assembly prepared for transport in accordance with this paragraph may have a mass exceeding 35 kg gross weight when transported by cargo aircraft; (6) Batteries or battery assemblies packaged in accordance with this paragraph are not permitted for transportation by passenger-carrying aircraft, and may be transported by cargo aircraft only if approved by the Associate Administrator prior to transportation; and (7) Shipping papers must include the following notation “Transport in accordance with § 173.185(e).” (f)Damaged, defective, or recalled cells or batteries. Lithium cells or batteries, that have been damaged or identified by the manufacturer as being defective for safety reasons, that have the potential of producing a dangerous evolution of heat, fire, or short circuit (e.g., those being returned to the manufacturer for safety reasons) may be transported by highway, rail or vessel only, and must be packagedas follows: (1) Each cell or battery must be placed in individual, non-metallic inner packaging that completely encloses the cell or battery; (2) The inner packaging must be surrounded by cushioning material that is non-combustible, non-conductive, and absorbent; and (3) Each inner packaging must be individually placed in one of the following packagings meeting the applicable requirements of part 178, subparts L, M, P and Q of this subchapter at the Packing Group I level: (i) Metal (4A, 4B, 4N), wooden (4C1, 4C2, 4D, 4F), or solid plastic (4H2) box; (ii) Metal (1A2, 1B2, 1N2), plywood (1D), or plastic (1H2) drum; or (iii) For a single battery or for a single battery contained in equipment, the following rigid large packagings are authorized: (A) Metal (50A, 50B, 50N); (B) Rigid plastic (50H); (C) Plywood (50D); and (4) The outer package must be marked with an indication that the package contains a “Damaged/defective lithium ion battery” and/or “Damaged/defective lithium metal battery” as appropriate. The marking required by this paragraph (f)(4) must be in characters at least 12 mm (0.47 inches) high. (g)Approval. A lithium cell or battery that does not conform to the provisions of this subchapter may be transported only under conditions approved by the Associate Administrator. [ 80 FR 72924, Nov. 23, 2015, as amended at 82 FR 15881, Mar. 30, 2017]
 
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   #433  

Uwe

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Jack, all the BS in your post above is based on the potential for reactivity rather than toxicity, and even then, it's mostly about primary (non-rechargeable) lithium batteries, not li-ion rechargeable cells, which contain no metallic lithium and aren't reactive enough to be considered hazardous once they're fully discharged.
 
   #434  

iichel

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My reference to toxicity or 'being dirty' isn't solely based on the hazardous properties of the chemicals but also mining and shipping the resources halfway across the globe.
But I guess having such a debate is nice as well. :cool:
 
   #435  

Jack@European_Parts

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Jack, all the BS in your post above is based on the potential for reactivity rather than toxicity, and even then, it's mostly about primary (non-rechargeable) lithium batteries, not li-ion rechargeable cells, which contain no metallic lithium and aren't reactive enough to be considered hazardous once they're fully discharged.

I see it a bit differently......here is why.

They may not be reactive in normal circumstances to create fire as you state but during disposal is classified as a hazardous waste under reactive.

Yes they are dirty because they can't be tossed in a typical trash compactor and indeed are reactive in that case for release of GHG's if given a routine circumstance that would arise out of improper disposal.

http://content.oppictures.com/Master_Images/Master_PDF_Files/tex84plcetbl_sds.pdf

2. Hazards IdentificationClassification of the substance or mixture.Preparation Hazards and Classification: The product is a Lithium ion cell or battery and is therefore classifiedas an article and is not hazardous when used according to the recommendations of the manufacturer. The hazardis associated with the contents of the cell or battery. Under recommended use conditions, the electrode materialsand liquid electrolyte are non-reactive provided that the cell or battery integrity remains and the seals remain intact.The potential for exposure should not exist unless the cell or battery leaks, is exposed to high temperatures or ismechanically, electrically or physically abused/damaged. If the cell or battery is compromised and starts to leak,based upon the battery ingredients, the contents are classified as Hazardous.Hazard SummaryPhysical hazards: Not classified for physical hazards.Health hazards: Not classified for health hazards.Environmental hazards: Not classified for hazards to the environment.Specific hazards: Exposure to contents of an open or damaged cell or battery: contact with this material willcause burns to the skin, eyes and mucous membranes. May cause sensitization by skin contact.Main Symptoms: Symptoms include itching, burning, redness and tearing.Hazardous Materials Information Label (HMIS)Health: 0Flammability: 1Physical Hazard: 0NFPA Hazard RatingsHealth: 0Flammability: 1Reactivity: 0Unique Hazard:

5. Fire Fighting MeasuresSuitable extinguishing mediaCold water and dry powder in large amount are applicable.Use metal fire extinction powder or dry sand if only few cells are involved.Special hazards arising from the chemicalMay form hydrofluoric acid if electrolyte comes into contact with water.In case of fire, the formation of the following flue gases cannot be excluded:Hydrogen fluoride (HF), Carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.Protective equipment and precautions for firefightersWear self-contained breathing apparatus and protective suit.Additional informationIf possible, remove cell(s) from fire fighting area. If heated above 125°C, cell(s) can explode/vent. Cell is not flammable but internal organic material will burn if the cell is incinerated.

Now make the jump to light speed here..........

https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/hydrofluoricacid/basics/facts.asp

[h=1]Facts About Hydrogen Fluoride (Hydrofluoric Acid)[/h]

[h=2]What hydrogen fluoride is[/h]
  • Hydrogen fluoride is a chemical compound that contains fluorine. It can exist as a colorless gas or as a fuming liquid, or it can be dissolved in water.
  • When hydrogen fluoride is dissolved in water, it may be called hydrofluoric acid.
  • Hydrogen fluoride can be released when other fluoride-containing compounds such as ammonium fluoride are combined with water.
[h=2]Where hydrogen fluoride is found and how it is used[/h]
  • Hydrogen fluoride is used to make refrigerants, herbicides, pharmaceuticals, high-octane gasoline, aluminum, plastics, electrical components, and fluorescent light bulbs. Sixty percent of the hydrogen fluoride used in manufacturing is for processes to make refrigerants.
  • Hydrogen fluoride is also used for etching glass and metal.
[h=2]How you could be exposed to hydrogen fluoride[/h]
  • In a natural disaster, you could be exposed to high levels of hydrogen fluoride when storage facilities or containers are damaged and the chemical is released. This release could occur at an industrial site or even a retail location.
  • You could be exposed to hydrogen fluoride if it is used as a chemical terrorism agent.
  • If you work in an occupation that uses hydrogen fluoride, you may be exposed to this chemical in the workplace.
  • You may be exposed to hydrogen fluoride as part of a hobby.
[h=2]How hydrogen fluoride works[/h]
  • Hydrogen fluoride goes easily and quickly through the skin and into the tissues in the body. There it damages the cells and causes them to not work properly.
  • The seriousness of poisoning caused by hydrogen fluoride depends on the amount, route, and length of time of exposure, as well as the age and preexisting medical condition of the person exposed.
  • Breathing hydrogen fluoride can damage lung tissue and cause swelling and fluid accumulation in the lungs (pulmonary edema).
  • Skin contact with hydrogen fluoride may cause severe burns that develop after several hours and form skin ulcers.
[h=2]Immediate signs and symptoms of exposure to hydrogen fluoride[/h]
  • Swallowing only a small amount of highly concentrated hydrogen fluoride will affect major internal organs and may be fatal.
  • Hydrogen fluoride gas, even at low levels, can irritate the eyes, nose, and respiratory tract. Breathing in hydrogen fluoride at high levels or in combination with skin contact can cause death from an irregular heartbeat or from fluid buildup in the lungs.
  • Even small splashes of high-concentration hydrogen fluoride products on the skin can be fatal. Skin contact with hydrogen fluoride may not cause immediate pain or visible skin damage(signs of exposure).
  • Often, patients exposed to low concentrations of hydrogen fluoride on the skin do not show effects or experience pain immediately. And, severe pain at the exposure site may be the only symptom for several hours. Visible damage may not appear until 12 to 24 hours after the exposure.
  • Depending on the concentration of the chemical and the length of time of exposure, skin contact with hydrogen fluoride may cause severe pain at the point of contact; a rash; and deep, slow-healing burns. Severe pain can occur even if no burns can be seen.
  • Showing these signs and symptoms does not necessarily mean that a person has been exposed to hydrogen fluoride. Other chemicals also can cause these effects.
  • Exposure to hydrogen fluoride can result in severe electrolyte problems.
[h=2]Long-term health effects of acute exposure to hydrogen fluoride[/h]
  • People who survive after being severely injured by breathing in hydrogen fluoride may suffer lingering chronic lung disease.
  • Skin damage caused by concentrated hydrogen fluoride may take a long time to heal and may result in severe scarring.
  • Fingertip injuries from hydrogen fluoride may result in persistent pain, bone loss, and injury to the nail bed.
  • Eye exposure to hydrogen fluoride may cause prolonged or permanent visual defects, blindness, or total destruction of the eye.
  • Swallowing hydrogen fluoride can damage the esophagus and stomach. The damage may progress for several weeks, resulting in gradual and lingering narrowing of the esophagus.
[h=2]How you can protect yourself, and what to do if you are exposed to hydrogen fluoride[/h]
  • First, if the hydrogen fluoride was released into the air, get fresh air by leaving the area where the chemical was released.
    • If the hydrogen fluoride release was outside, move away from the area where the chemical was released.
    • If the hydrogen fluoride release occurred indoors, get out of the building.
  • If you are near a release of fluorine or hydrogen fluoride, emergency coordinators may tell you either to evacuate the area or “shelter in place” inside a building to avoid being exposed to the chemical. For more information on evacuation during a chemical emergency, see “Facts About Evacuation.” For more information on sheltering in place during a chemical emergency, see “Facts About Sheltering in Place.”
  • If you think you may have been exposed to hydrogen fluoride, you should remove your clothing, rapidly wash your entire body with water, and get medical care as quickly as possible.
  • Removing your clothing
    • Quickly take off clothing that may have hydrogen fluoride on it. Any clothing that has to be pulled over the head should be cut off the body.
    • If you are helping other people remove their clothing, try to avoid touching any contaminated areas, and remove the clothing as quickly as possible.
  • Washing yourself
    • As quickly as possible, wash any hydrogen fluoride from your skin with large amounts of water.
    • If your eyes are burning or your vision is blurred, rinse your eyes with plain water.
    • If you wear contacts, remove them after washing your hands and put them with the contaminated clothing. Do not put the contacts back in your eyes (even if they are not disposable contacts). If you wear eyeglasses, wash them with soap and water. You can put your eyeglasses back on after you wash them.
  • Disposing of your clothes
    • After you have washed yourself, place your clothing inside a plastic bag. Avoid touching contaminated areas of the clothing. If you can’t avoid touching contaminated areas, or you aren’t sure which areas are contaminated, put the clothing in the bag using tongs, tool handles, sticks, or similar objects. Anything that touches contaminated clothing should also be placed in the bag.
    • Seal the bag, and then seal that bag inside another plastic bag. Disposing of your clothing in this way will help protect you and other people from any chemicals that might be on your clothes.
    • When local or state health department or emergency personnel arrive, tell them what you did with your clothes. The health department or emergency personnel will arrange for further disposal. Do not handle the plastic bags yourself.
  • For more information about cleaning your body and disposing of your clothes after a chemical release, see “Chemical Agents: Facts About Personal Cleaning and Disposal of Contaminated Clothing.”
  • If someone has swallowed hydrogen fluoride, do not induce vomiting. Do not give the person activated charcoal.
  • Seek medical attention immediately. Dial 911 and explain what has happened.
  • If you are sure the person has swallowed hydrogen fluoride, do not attempt CPR unless you are able to take appropriate measures to protect yourself from exposure to hydrogen fluoride. Performing CPR on someone who has swallowed hydrogen fluoride could expose you to the chemical.
[h=2]How hydrogen fluoride poisoning is treated[/h]Exposed people should seek medical treatment as soon as possible. Your doctor may recommend or use products to help neutralize the effects of poisoning. Calcium gluconate (a calcium sugar) containing gels, solutions, and medications are used to treat hydrogen fluoride poisoning.
 
   #436  

Uwe

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I see it a bit differently......here is why.

They may not be reactive in normal circumstances to create fire as you state but during disposal is classified as a hazardous waste under reactive.

Yes they are dirty because they can't be tossed in a typical trash compactor and indeed are reactive in that case for release of GHG's if given a routine circumstance that would arise out of improper disposal.

http://content.oppictures.com/Master_Images/Master_PDF_Files/tex84plcetbl_sds.pdf

Since you think it's appropriate to cite battery manufacturers, I'll do so too:
http://www.rdbatteries.com/upload/62/Panasonic Lithium Ion MSDS.pdf

DISPOSAL
All Panasonic Lithium ion batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the normal municipal waste stream.
 
   #437  

Jack@European_Parts

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https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/171.2

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/172.704






https://www.icao.int/safety/DangerousGoods/Documents/SAFO16001.pdf

A SAFO contains important safety information and may include recommended action. SAFO content should be especiallyvaluable to air carriers in meeting their statutory duty to provide service with the highest possible degree of safety in the publicinterest. Besides the specific action recommended in a SAFO, an alternative action may be as effective in addressing the safetyissue named in the SAFO.Subject: Risks of Fire or Explosion when Transporting Lithium Ion or Lithium Metal Batteries as Cargoon Passenger and Cargo AircraftPurpose: This SAFO serves to alert Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 121, 125,129 and 135 operators of the potential risk for a catastrophic hull loss due to significant identified dangersassociated with the transport of lithium batteries as cargo on either passenger or cargo aircraft.Additionally, this SAFO contains information and recommendations, the Federal Aviation Administration(FAA) strongly recommends, for operators to consider when developing risk mitigation measures beforetransporting lithium ion or lithium metal batteries as cargo on passenger and cargo aircraft.NOTE: This SAFO only addresses lithium batteries not contained in or packed with equipmentwhen offered for cargo and is not intended to cover the provisions concerning passengers andcrew.Background: Due to recent findings of the FAA, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO),and the FAA William J. Hughes Technical Center (FAA Tech Center), both Boeing and Airbus aircraftmanufacturers have issued communications to advise operators of the dangers associated withtransporting lithium batteries as cargo on passenger and cargo aircraft. Lithium batteries are currentlyclassified as Class 9 hazardous materials in Title 49 CFR, Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) andthe ICAO Technical Instructions. The term "lithium batteries" as used in this SAFO include the following:• Lithium Ion Batteries. (UN3480). These are rechargeable lithium batteries, similar to thosefound in cameras, cell phones, laptop computers, and radio-controlled toys. Lithium polymerbatteries are types of lithium ion batteries.• Lithium Metal Batteries. (UN3090). These cannot be recharged and are designed to be discardedonce their initial charge is used up.This SAFO recognizes that both ICAO and Title 49 CFR prohibit the carriage of lithium metal batteries(UN3090) as cargo on passenger aircraft. However, this prohibition does not mitigate the risks associatedwith the carriage of lithium ion batteries (UN3480) as cargo on passenger aircraft, nor mitigate the risksassociated with carrying either lithium ion batteries (UN3480) or lithium metal batteries (UN3090) aboardcargo aircraft.NOTE: For clarity, UN3480 and UN3090 do not include lithium batteries contained in or packedwith equipment.Title 49 CFR §173.185 contains conditional exceptions for Class 9 lithium battery cargo shipments,which include most lithium batteries and devices transported by air. “Conditional exceptions” means thatbatteries and cells meeting specific criteria AND which have passed testing in accordance with the UnitedSAFOSafety Alert for OperatorsU.S. Departmentof TransportationFederal AviationAdministrationSAFO 16001DATE: 1/19/16Flight Standards ServiceWashington, DCDistributed by: AFS-200 AFS-200Nations (UN) Manual of Tests and Criteria may be shipped with relief from some marking, labeling,documentation and packaging requirements. Conditional exceptions are provided for certain small lithiumbatteries under specific conditions. However, these small batteries are still classified as a hazardousmaterial. Operators may not be aware they are accepting and transporting lithium batteries meeting theseconditional exceptions unless they have implemented procedures through their own policies or variationsto require customers to identify these shipments when offered for transportation.Aircraft manufacturers Airbus and Boeing, as well as the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) andICAO, have recently published material on the risks associated with the carriage of lithium batteries.These references include the following:• Airbus operators can reference Airbus In-Service Information publication, ISI 00.00.00182, datedJuly 24, 2015;• Boeing operators can reference Boeing Multi Operator message, MOM-MOM-15-0469-01B,dated July 17, 2015;• EASA Safety Information Bulletin – Operations – SIB No.: 2015-19; 05 October 2015; Transportof Lithium Batteries as Cargo by Air.• ICAO Electronic Bulletin, EB 2015/48; AN 11/2.1; 15 September 2015.Discussion: FAA testing has shown that a single lithium battery (cell), whether metal or ion, in thermalrunaway will spread to the neighboring batteries in the package and to adjacent packages. Thermalrunaway is initiated by an internal short within the battery that may be caused by a manufacturingcontaminant, battery damage during handling or from heat produced in the environment, such as by anadjacent fire.In 2015, FAA Tech Center testing showed that the ignition of the unburned flammable gases associatedwith a lithium battery fire could lead to a catastrophic explosion. The current design of the Halon 1301firesuppression system (concentration 5%) in a Class C cargo compartment in passenger airplanes isincapable of preventing such an explosion. In addition, tests also revealed that the ignition of a mixture offlammable gases could produce an over pressure, dislodging pressure relief panels, and thereby allowingleakage from the associated cargo compartment. This could lead to the spread of smoke and gases fromthe fire into occupied areas of the airplane. The number of cells necessary to produce this condition issmall and can occur with just a few packages. Operators are encouraged to refer to SAFO 10017 forfurther information with the understanding that the recommendations contained in that SAFO may beamended with information sourced from continuing research.A summary of the flammable gas testing and findings can be found at: (Note: this link contains videopresentations and may require a lengthy download.) http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/ppt/systems/Sept_18_2015_Battery_Public_Meeting.pptx. A continually updated listing of research performed by the FAATech Center on lithium ion batteries can be found at, http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/systems/LithiumBatteries.Recommended Action: Before operators engage in the transport of lithium ion batteries as cargo onpassenger aircraft, or lithium ion or lithium metal batteries on cargo aircraft, be aware that ICAO andmajor airframe manufacturers (Boeing and Airbus) have recommended that operators perform safety riskassessments in order to establish whether, or how, they can manage the risk associated with the transportof these batteries. The FAA strongly supports these recommendations. The FAA encourages thoseoperators who have previously performed a risk assessment to reevaluate their assessment in light of thefurther evidence gained through the recent testing of lithium batteries. Operators that have implemented aformal Safety Management System (SMS) should accomplish a Safety Risk Assessment (SRA), inaccordance with the Safety Risk Management process in its SMS.Distributed by: AFS-200 AFS-200The FAA also is working with operators to ascertain what actions they take in response to the ICAOrecommendations and manufacturer publications to eliminate or reduce the risk. When considering riskmitigation strategies the FAA recommends cargo and passenger operators who wish to carry lithium ionbatteries as cargo, review and consider the following:• All lithium batteries per 49 CFR §171.2(e), 175.3, and 175.30(a) must comply with appropriatepackaging and shipping requirements for dangerous goods;• High density packages of lithium batteries and cells increases risk;• Training of personnel who handle lithium batteries per 14 CFR §121.1001(a), 121.1003(a), and• 49 CFR §172.704 must include information on the dangers associated with any lithium battery; theproper labeling; the proper loading; the proper rejection criteria for damaged shipments; andemergency response procedures in the event of a heat/smoke/fire event involving lithium batteries.When transporting lithium ion batteries, operators should consider (not limited to) the following:• The types, quantities and the frequency of carriage of lithium batteries (including state of chargeof the battery, if known);• Evaluation of the fire protection features of each model of aircraft they operate;• The operator’s specific lithium battery acceptance requirements for packaging, state of charge, andany other limitations placed upon the shipper;• The history of the shipper’s compliance with dangerous goods transport regulations;• The means of loading and limitations on lithium battery shipments within the cargo compartmentof cargo aircraft or lithium ion batteries within the cargo compartment of passenger aircraft, e.g.,bulk loaded, containers, covered pallets;• The containment characteristics of Unit Load Devices (ULD);• The specific hazards and safety risks associated with each battery and cell type to be carried aloneor in combination;• The chemical composition of the batteries and cells;• Location of batteries in the cargo compartment, including:o Proximity to other batteries, ando Proximity to other dangerous goods• Notification procedures for the flightcrew:o Location of the batteries in the cargo compartment;o Accessibility of the batteries to the crew;o Quantity of items being shipped;o The capability of the crew to fight an in-flight lithium battery fire.Related Information:• SAFO 10017, Risks in Transporting Lithium Batteries in Cargo by Aircraft. 10/8/10.http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/media/safo10017.pdf.• SAFO 15010, Carriage of Spare Lithium Batteries in Carry-on and Checked Baggage. 10/8/15.https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...o/all_safos/media/2015/SAFO15010.pdf.Contact: Questions or comments regarding this SAFO should be directed to the FAA Air TransportationDivision, AFS-200, at (202) 267-8166. Questions or comments concerning 49 CFR Hazardous MaterialRegulations should be directed to the FAA Office of Hazardous Materials Safety, ADG-200, at (202) 267-9432.
 
   #438  

Jack@European_Parts

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Since you think it's appropriate to cite battery manufacturers, I'll do so too:

:) That's 5 years old like my attention span..........

It was a generality as to whether it was or could create a hazard and car batteries if being made from these materials would be far larger than a laptop.

Delicious gases at the next hybrid fire.........

I mean seriously would you roast marshmallows or make smores at that fire?

Smores-in-the-oven.jpg
 
   #439  
   #440  

Jack@European_Parts

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Ontario woman’s SUV fills with smoke, Audi blames kids’ winter boots

https://globalnews.ca/news/4036975/audi-smoke-in-suv-ontario/

Where there is smoke in Audi's there is fire and usually water?

Ever consider that some Audi's and of course other car makers now that are getting old, have battery packs ummmmm on the floor area for the telematics and when gets wet from boots or its own water ingress issues by excellent design, that the battery could react and cause the car to burn to ground?

Address 75: Telematics Labels: None
Part No SW: 8E0 035 616 B HW: 8E0 035 616 B
Component: Telematik USA1 1616
Coding: 0005033

1 Fault Found:
01531 - Emergency Battery
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - FLAME ON!

s-l500.jpg
 
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