Telematics - Automotive IoT, connected car modules face rapid growth

[Uwe]

In 2020, when your automated vehicle doesn't phone home within specified timeline, it could just shut down and wait for the mothership to send a tow truck out. Or the NSA for that matter.

That should be bullish for used (older) car prices and the tools needed to keep them running.

-Uwe-

 

[vreihen]

...not to mention third-party fuel injection/ECU kits to break the chains of captivity.....

 

[PetrolDave]

Brian thinks that by 2020, most cars produced will have GSM technology to send the data from the car back to mother ship.

Shame that won't work in many locations then - as many mobile operators, including those in the US, are planning to shut down their GSM networks before 2020 to reuse the spectrum for 4G & 5G.

This is another example of either the lack of knowledge of sufficient domains and/or the lack of "joined up thinking" that is common nowadays, in some part due to the increased complexity of the converged digital world in which we live.

 

[D-Dub]

For most people who don't already know, GSM = LTE

For people who do know, GSM <> LTE.

The actual air technology is irrelevant, be it GSM, CDMA, or LTE, the point is that vehicles already are, and it will become default for full time cellular connectivity, not just for the vehicle passengers (ie lte hotspots), but for your vehicle telematics, navigation, etc.

 

[Uwe]

The actual air technology is irrelevant, be it GSM, CDMA, or LTE, the point is that vehicles already are, and it will become default for full time cellular connectivity, not just for the vehicle passengers (ie lte hotspots), but for your vehicle telematics, navigation, etc.

Which is all fine and dandy (as far as the manufacturers are concerned anyway) as long as whatever form of cellular tech built into the car remains supported by the cellular networks. Ask people with original OnStar modules (that used AMPS) in their GM cars how well the work now. OK, no big loss when it's just OnStar, but if whatever cellular networking is built into the car were the only way to get diagnostic information from it, that would be something of a problem, no?

-Uwe-

 

[vreihen]

On a tangent to this discussion, I saw a TV commercial the other day for a new startup venture:

http://www.airbornewirelessnetwork.com/

They plan to extend the cellular network to rural locations by building a mesh-based network on commercial airliners and cargo planes, with on-board "towers" that take mobile phone calls originating on the ground just like the land-based towers that aren't available in remote locations.

With airlines always on the search for revenue streams, I don't think that they will have a hard time getting their hardware installed on the domestic fleets of aircraft once the FAA and FCC approve it. My only question is how they will deal with obtaining frequency spectrum...and if the FCC will allow ground-to-air communications via the same frequencies as licensed for the land-based system?

From my little ADS-B airplane tracker tinkering, I know that I can pick up aircraft up to 300 miles away with an antenna on the ground. I imagine that two airplanes flying at 35,000 feet can communicate even further...with only the curve of the Earth as the limiting factor. Using the desert southwest USA as an example, that whole corner of the country could be covered by planes flying out of Las Vegas and LAX. Throw on the UPS/FedEx fleets for night coverage, and it most certainly is feasible on the back of a napkin.

I have to answer a few of my own lingering questions before doing so, but I'm thinking that I may take a gamble and buy a hundred shares (currently $2.30/share) just in case the idea takes off (pun intended).

Back to vehicle telematics, I would think that this type of service would be *very* useful for low-speed/intermittent data from vehicles to their mothership, and would cover the places where that "Can you hear me now?" dude has never been to. Would Bosch or somebody be crazy enough to try and set up their own wholesale telematics network for the vehicle manufacturers? Other than skyscrapers, garages, and tunnels, it would be pretty hard to hide from an air-based "GSM" tower.....

 

[Uwe]

On a tangent to this discussion, I saw a TV commercial the other day for a new startup venture:
http://www.airbornewirelessnetwork.com/

What, they didn't call this SkyNet?

I have to answer a few of my own lingering questions before doing so, but I'm thinking that I may take a gamble and buy a hundred shares (currently $2.30/share) just in case the idea takes off (pun intended).

Hey, pump & dump schemes are restricted to the Backroom.

Back to vehicle telematics, I would think that this type of service would be *very* useful for low-speed/intermittent data from vehicles to their mothership, and would cover the places where that "Can you hear me now?" dude has never been to. Would Bosch or somebody be crazy enough to try and set up their own wholesale telematics network for the vehicle manufacturers? Other than skyscrapers, garages, and tunnels, it would be pretty hard to hide from an air-based "GSM" tower.....

-Uwe-

 

[D-Dub]

but if whatever cellular networking is built into the car were the only way to get diagnostic information from it, that would be something of a problem, no?

Of course it would be a problem, for the end user. But not the OE, who wants you to dump that old POS and buy a newer one!

Planned obsolescence!

Of course as far as cellular technology, I think LTE (and variations/upgrade thereof) will be around for a good long time, at least for the foreseeable future.

And just to blow vreihens mind, I expect that vehicle to vehicle communications will be integrated with cellular communications, allowing vehicles to form a mesh network, and that they will allow for a type of store and forward proxy network for vehicles in which the primary cellular connection is/has failed.

So Uwe pulls the fuse for the cellular connection of his 2020, but his v2v communications will forward his mothership requests via Jack's vehicle as they pass by each other, while the mothership responds to vreihen's vehicle which is now in v2v range of Uwe's.

Or that smart traffic light acts as secondary gateway to/from the motherships.

Like ships in the night!

 

[PetrolDave]

For most people who don't already know, GSM = LTE

For people who do know, GSM <> LTE.

As a former Chief Engineer for a mobile telecoms company (now retired) I can state with absolute confidence that GSM most definitely <> LTE!

An old style GSM(2G) phone/module cannot connect to a WCDMA(3G), LTE(4G) or 5G network, so when a network operator turns off GSM that phone/module is no more than a useless brick.

The vast majority of 4G(LTE) modules can fallback to 3G(WCDMA) or 2G(GSM)if required to maintain connectivity - but the data rates on 2G are now see as laughably slow (14.4kbps max unless 2.5G EDGE is available when you might reach the dizzy heights of 240kbps).

As to 5G - well it's anyones guess as the standard is still not fully defined.

And what about countries that still use CDMA and its various offshoots that are not compatible with GSM, 3G or LTE?

 

[Uwe]

So Uwe pulls the fuse for the cellular connection of his 2020, but his v2v communications will forward his mothership requests via Jack's vehicle as they pass by each other, while the mothership responds to vreihen's vehicle which is now in v2v range of Uwe's.

Remind me to take good care of my 20-teens cars, 'cause I'm going to be keeping them indefinitely.

-Uwe-

 

[vreihen]

Remind me to take good care of my 20-teens cars, 'cause I'm going to be keeping them indefinitely.

Believe it or not, my Audi TT is only 7 years away from historic license plates in New Yorkistan!!!!!

 

[vreihen]

And what about countries that still use CDMA and its various offshoots that are not compatible with GSM, 3G or LTE?

<=== Raises his hand.

Here in the land of the free and the home of the fake boob, Verizon Wireless and Sprint both rolled out CDMA. Verizon has built out 4G/LTE on their network for the data services. Sprint started out rolling out WiMAX as their 4G data solution, and later had to back-pedal and install LTE when WiMAX didn't pan out with the cell phone manufacturers. I always get a chuckle out of reading Verizon/Sprint customer complaints that they went to Europe and found out that their CDMA phone was a paperweight. FWIW, AT&T and T-Mobile rolled out GSM/LTE, so their customers at least stand a chance of getting access in Europe (although their device may be locked to the original SIM card and not take one from an alternate carrier.)

Long story short, both Verizon and Sprint are moving towards VoLTE (voice over LTE) as the ultimate fix for phasing out CDMA. I know that the feature has been working for at least 2-3 iPhone generations now, branded as HD calling between compatible phones.

I've seen several industry sources saying that cellular voice access is waning in popularity, just like POTS landline phones. The millennials prefer to use data services and text to communicate, and their voice needs are nothing more than a tiny bandwidth stream over LTE and do not need to be multiplexed on CDMA channels. Some have even predicted that the next iPhone generation won't have CDMA voice hardware at all, to save paying the per-unit royalties to Qualcomm or whoever owns them.....

 

[vreihen]

What, they didn't call this SkyNet?

Want to bet that somebody hasn't trademarked SkyNet yet?

Hey, pump & dump schemes are restricted to the Backroom.

Back room? Are you running both a bar *and* a speakeasy here? Is it a nice place with happy people? I like to keep myself surrounded with positive thoughts/energy these days, and avoid establishments with an obnoxiously loud Negative Nancy yelling repeatedly that the sky is falling so clean your shorts. If I wanted to hear about the end days, I'd go to church on Sundays to make sure that I had a window seat on the rapture bus.

Apologies for the thread de-rail, Bruce.

Back to the topic at hand, to allay Uwe's fear about obsolete cellular tech leaving cars stuck with no remote telematics access, let me tell you about our friend Todd (aka: Alarm Jesus). In the past 8 years, he has been to my house *twice* to install upgraded external cellular AlarmNet radios because legacy cellular services were being phased out. It is a cost of doing business in the home alarm business, and the systems were designed to have the radio modules replaced as cellular technology evolved.

There are plenty of cheap GSM/GPRS radio modules available to the general public that demonstrate it is possible to make a small piggy-back card for the cellular protocol du jour. This one is $11.99, consumer quantity one price:

https://www.amazon.com/Diymall-Sim800l-Antenna-Automatic-Microsim/dp/B00QN1X5TS/

If the auto manufacturers were smart (and not like GM with NonStar), they will engineer for making these upgrades so simple that even a dealer tech could install them. Remember the old USB cellular data radios for notebook PC's? Their price is in line with an ELM 327 bluetooth gizmo, and really isn't going to break the bank to buy/install an upgrade if the vehicle needs to be diagnosed. I'm not saying that USB is the answer because it too will be gone in a few years, but it isn't like every center console will still have an old iPhone30-pin connector if they plan ahead. Make it consumer-replaceable. (Remember that seeing opportunity thing above?) Of course, nobody has ever accused automakers of being smart...well, except maybe Tesla because the owner has a whole building full of actual rocket scientists at his disposal.....

 

[Uwe]

If the auto manufacturers were smart

When it comes to this stuff, they are not. They have no incentive to be. In fact, they have plenty of incentive NOT to be.

-Uwe-

 

[PetrolDave]

If the auto manufacturers were smart (and not like GM with NonStar), they will engineer for making these upgrades so simple that even a dealer tech could install them.

For most of the past 10+ years I've been helping Audi owners do retrofits that Audi say are impossible (VCDS has been key to this effort) - read as they don't supply a retrofit kit, but the retrofit can be done using Audi parts bought from an Audi dealer - and that "logic" applies across the whole of VAG and I suspect the majority of the auto industry.

Why don't they want to allow owners or dealers to do upgrades? Two reasons are obvious:
1) They want to make the owner buy a new vehicle
2) They are worried about liability issues arising from an incorrectly carried out upgrade.

 

[vreihen]

^^^ Living proof that what some perceive as a threat is another person's opportunity waiting to happen.....

 

[Jack@European_Parts]

For most of the past 10+ years I've been helping Audi owners do retrofits that Audi say are impossible (VCDS has been key to this effort) - read as they don't supply a retrofit kit, but the retrofit can be done using Audi parts bought from an Audi dealer - and that "logic" applies across the whole of VAG and I suspect the majority of the auto industry.

Why don't they want to allow owners or dealers to do upgrades? Two reasons are obvious:
1) They want to make the owner buy a new vehicle
2) They are worried about liability issues arising from an incorrectly carried out upgrade.

Nope......... it's a business model.

To obtain the full profit point, further by blocking the aftermarket from having gadgets to compete or an alternate source to go to for service other than an OEM franchise.

It's called a monopoly..........

Why do you think cars come more and more loaded with toys and even with just a package criteria and not for specific options?

It's not just to save on assembly line costs.......

Know what's pretty funny request we get often?

To disable or disconnect antennas including GPS, because people don't want to be located or monitored & for the request of a shielded storage box.
Some people are so worried about getting a cell phone ticket unjustly by police officers "which lie" and say they saw them on their cell phone they lock it up or give it up entirely.

 

[D-Dub]

A quote regarding AI, not so much related to telematics, but more related to automation conversation;

Plus, computer scientists have demonstrated repeatedly that AI is no better than its datasets, and the datasets that humans produce are full of errors and biases. Whatever AI we produce will be as flawed and confused as humans are.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/07/zuckerberg-and-musk-are-both-wrong-about-ai/

And another interesting semi-related ars article regarding vehicle OTA updates @ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...020-but-only-for-a-new-infotainment-platform/

 

[vreihen]

Interesting remote diagnostics story that I forgot to share. When I left the hospital for the first time last fall, they installed a pacemaker/defibrillator/butt-scratcher in my chest. Part of the package is a 3G/4G cellular gizmo that I need to keep on my night stand, so that it can poll the device status nightly and transmit any anomalies up to the mothership for followup.

Back in mid-May, I received an unexpected phone call from my cardiologist's office. One of the sensors in the device had detected a slight increase of fluid buildup in my chest. The doctor told me over the phone to take an extra diuretic (anti-water) pill for a few days, to see if it cured the problem. Sure enough, the error condition cleared itself in a few days.

The moral to this story is that remote telematics possibly saved me from another hospital stay, saved me from losing 4 hours of work and two hours of driving to see the doctor, and also saved me the insurance co-pay because the doctor didn't charge me for the non-visit! As much as I hate the privacy tradeoff, I have personally seen a benefit from having remote fault alerts before the problem got any worse.....

 

[Bruce]

Telematics security efforts are uncoordinated, lack standardization

http://www.searchautoparts.com/afte...Ck02TDc8PlGiEnxTSeKdR3YSrhIujg&_hsmi=54846146

More about the security of Telematics and Diagnostic Data over the air.