This combination of DTCs must mean something!(AKA no fuel pressure sensor on BFMs?)

aTOMic · May 23, 2014

Hi I've been working on a problem over at AW and thought I'd ask for some expert help here... so if the thread is a bit disjointed, forgive me.

(Below I was lamenting the lack of advice much beyond "Run a can of techron through her") -and no offense to those who said that - she's been through five cans since this started

Either some EE who can speed through a wiring diagram like we read the comics; or my Laird Uwe who might know the correlation of these codes - they all occur together and the car stalls. She was kind enough to provide a full set just now, for my immediate use. Didn't quite stall as my 11-year old is getting good at save/clear codes! It is happening with increasing frequency, every 40 miles or so.

Please to enjoy le codes:
(sorry my email hacks up the formatting, I tried to fix it)

Code:

Thursday,22,May,2014,15:19:49:64698 VCDS Version: Release 12.12.2

Address 01: Engine        Labels: 077-910-560-BFM.LBL 
  Control Module Part Number: 4E0 910 560 A     HW: 4E0 907 560 
  Component and/or Version: 4.2L V8/5V G 0050 
  Software Coding: 0007773 
  Work Shop Code: WSC 98765 666 30770 
  VCID: 1F4D5514CD4166E682D-5124
6 Faults Found:

17981 - Left Engine Mount Solenoid Valve (N144) 
    P1573 - 004 - Open Circuit
17538 - Fuel Trim; Bank 2 (Mult) 
    P1130 - 001 - System too Lean - Intermittent
17536 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1 (Mult) 
    P1128 - 001 - System too Lean - Intermittent
16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) 
    P0103 - 008 - Signal too High
18663 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1 
    P2231 - 004 - Signal Shorted to Heater Circuit 
18666 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B2 S1 
    P2234 - 004 - Signal Shorted to Heater Circuit

Readiness: 0000 1101
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then there are usually these codes as well, not sure if caused by the stall or if they "mean something":

Code:

Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09E-927-156.lbl
  Part No SW: 4E0 910 156 E HW: 09E 927 156 A
  Component: AG6 09E 4,2L5V USA 0060
  Coding: 0000002 
  Shop #: WSC 02353 785 00200
  VCID: 24475AF8E727453EDFF-8071

1 Fault Found:

18265 - Load Signal
P1857 - 000 - Error Message from ECU - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1312 /min
RPM: 1216 /min
RPM: 1792 /min
(no units): 38.0
(no units): 54.0
Temperature: 77.0°C
T.B. Angle: 14.1°
Voltage: 13.12 V

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes   Labels: 4E0-910-517.lbl
  Part No SW: 4E0 910 517 A HW: 4E0 614 517 E
  Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H29 0420
  Coding: 0007597
  Shop #: WSC 03419 000 00000
  VCID: 214953ECF8355016B49-8074

1 Fault Found:
18265 - Load Signal
P1857 - 000 - Error Message from ECU

The first two codes are almost always there.

Anytime the 16487 MAF P0103 occurs the car stalls. It only occurs at or near idle, usually after driving at 45-55 MPH for 5-10 minutes.

Once, the car stalled without the last two, but usually they are set.

I know there is a common connector where these converge that's broken! Or at least they are related somehow.
Also that big pucklike throttle control valve makes me nervous. Can't find much info on it.
Another thought I'm entertaining is to swap the old MAF back in. Bosch doesn't send out defective ECUs right? I fixed the EGR lines and airbox since then....

Naturally, and as usual; thanks in advance for any help.

Going out to look for vacuum leaks. You can still do that with propane, right? I've got a big full tank that won't connect to my grill. Hmmmm.

Is there no fuel pressure sensor? Found the blocks where fuel pumps status is, will try to post a log ASAP
Thought I'd found it by searching Bentley but only on the V10 and another production code (=newer) engine. Mine's the BFM as are all US 2004s.

Trying to run down codes including a trail to fuel pumps and would love to log pressure, pump status, etc. for each, but I searched last night and no luck.

Also, do all these cars (4.2s) need the EGR Adaptation MP talked of in the past?

I had replaced the vac lines to the EGR valves, one was broken off open, but I suspect I broke it when I was leak-hunting.
FWIW, I liberally sprayed the manifold/block juncture with CRC MAF cleaner without result. Then I thought I better verify its effect , so I disconnected the vac tube from the B/W check valve and sprayed into the tube going straight into the manifold (I guess)... it took a surprisingly large amount to affect the idle. I then took off the fuel pressure regulator tube and it had virtually no effect.. I sprayed first a little then a lot into the tube and finally got a slight reaction. No DTCs triggered by all this...

One old school test I performed was manifold vacuum; it was not exactly steady at idle, but varied +/- maybe five pounds. Measured at FPR tube. Revved to ~4000 RPM but vac performed as expected, smooth and up & down.

Here's another thread. I just cannot believe all these continue to happen at the same time by chance - do there must be a connection (or a connector?, ha)

Sorry, I know this could have been more concise but I am in a big rush. Wife just reminded me she needs to be dropped off before I pick up kids; meaning I have to leave nearly an hour earlier than planned - and if she/you could see the car (it's quite disassembled - cowl's off, looking for ECU to check harness, it seems to be buried in leaves. They're dry at least.) she'd defecate a a building product!

Thanks! Love your product!
-Tom

Jack@European_Parts · May 23, 2014

Please post the full auto-scan...............

This sounds like a bad MAF or clone unacceptable part or even fuel/filter faulty or pump volume issue.

Please correct the OXS heater sensors ASAP and check fuses/wiring.

Visual inspection is important that all boots are not making half ass connections when engine load offset moves in motor mounts.

Uwe · May 23, 2014

aTOMic said:
Is there no fuel pressure sensor?

I wouldn't expect a 5V engine with conventional port injection to have one, no.

-Uwe-

dafrazi · May 23, 2014

I agree with Jack. Suspect MAF. The MAF sensor is likely under-reporting the air flow; so, the ECU isn't adding enough fuel. Then when you come to idle, the car stalls becuase it's fuel starved.

Also, it seems wierd that both pre-cat O2 sensors have the same issue. At first I thought it was just one side then noticed the other code at the end of the line. I would check the harness where the O2 sensors plug-in. I bet you have a broken or frayed wire.

dafrazi · May 23, 2014

It defintiely has a fuel pressure sensor. It should be on the back side of the engine between the heads where the fuel line comes up from the gas tank.

aTOMic · May 24, 2014

dafrazi said:
It defintiely has a fuel pressure sensor. It should be on the back side of the engine between the heads where the fuel line comes up from the gas tank.

Uh, perhaps you missed the part where Uwe said it doesn't

The reason one "wouldn't expect a 5V engine with conventional port injection to have one" is not important.

There's a sensor (or three) for virtually everything else, why not FP?

Thanks for all the replies; I am working on posting scans/logs.

Any MB numbers I should log, please suggest... I am just starting to comprehend this thing.

-Tom

Uwe · May 24, 2014

aTOMic said:
Uh, perhaps you missed the part where Uwe said it doesn't

I said I wouldn't expect it to. That's not a definitive "it doesn't". I have no first-hand experience with that particular engine.

aTOMic said:
The reason one "wouldn't expect a 5V engine with conventional port injection to have one" is not important. There's a sensor (or three) for virtually everything else, why not FP?

Because most of those older engines simply didn't care about fuel pressure; they typically ran a fixed ~4 bar of fuel pressure (relative to manifold pressure), kept there by a diaphragm-type regulator.

However, I'm thinking there might be some exceptions, specifically cars with a "returnless" fuel system.

aTOMic · May 24, 2014

My most recent post on aw contains files I hope are useful.

OR not. I'm exhauted and I hate winduhs.

Thanks again,I'll have my 12-year old help tomorrow.

Tom

aTOMic · May 25, 2014

dafrazi said:
I agree with Jack. Suspect MAF. The MAF sensor is likely under-reporting the air flow; so, the ECU isn't adding enough fuel. Then when you come to idle, the car stalls becuase it's fuel starved.

Also, it seems wierd that both pre-cat O2 sensors have the same issue. At first I thought it was just one side then noticed the other code at the end of the line. I would check the harness where the O2 sensors plug-in. I bet you have a broken or frayed wire.

Do you happen to know off the top of your head where it is? I found what I thought (hoped) was that connector (in the cowl by the ECU) but got no voltage or resistance across the terminals the manual said to test. I guess I ASS-U-MEd it was it cause one was brown and one black and they fit the description, as they say.

Yes, I realize I am coming across like a noob on Audiworld asking "Where's the battery I looked EVERYWHERE under the hood and I cannot jump-start my car!!!"; but I am crazy busy and I will try to research my own stuff , e.g. the connector location, more in the future.

dafrazi · May 25, 2014

aTOMic said:
Uh, perhaps you missed the part where Uwe said it doesn't

The reason one "wouldn't expect a 5V engine with conventional port injection to have one" is not important. There's a sensor (or three) for virtually everything else, why not FP?

Thanks for all the replies; I am working on posting scans/logs.

Any MB numbers I should log, please suggest... I am just starting to comprehend this thing.

-Tom

My bad. I read the engine code wrong and by wrong I mean I must have spaced out. No mention of a FP sensor for your engine in Bentley manual.

dafrazi · May 25, 2014

Connections should be on the fire wall. Bank one on the passenger side behind the intake hose. Bank two on the driver side behind the coolant tank. I'm guessing that you already know these.

I looked at the wiring diagram for a similar A6 4.2L, 5V engine too...looks like both banks of the pre-cat and post-cat O2 sensors are fed from the same fuse...fuse 16 for pre-cat; fuse 17 for post-cat in the A6. So, there should be a common connection somewhere. The wiring diagram calls the pre-cat connection D112 (connection 10 in the engine compartment wiring harness); the post-cat connection D113 (connection 11 in the engine compartment). I didn't see any other descriptions on the location.

I know what it's like to busy and dealing with a nagging car issue...I got 2 small kids, a wife, a house about to go on the market and a high strung S6.

aTOMic · May 25, 2014

dafrazi said:
My bad. I read the engine code wrong and by wrong I mean I must have spaced out. No mention of a FP sensor for your engine in Bentley manual.

No prob mon, I appreciate you helping on the thread!

Uwe is to be corrected at one's own peril.

So a new clue! At ~80MPH cruising on level ground, a DTC which I would not had noticed save for the fact the wife was playing with the VCDS and boom, there it was!

17884 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump
P1476 - 002 - Malfunction / Insufficient Vacuum
Now off to search for it, and maybe look around under the hood.
Never have seen this DTC.

Hope everyone is having a great holiday weekend!
-Tom

jakematic · May 25, 2014

aTOMic said:
Uwe is to be corrected at one's own peril.

I think you'll find he is a very reasonable man who will listen to all input.
Tell him he's incorrect without substantiating evidence, that's another ball of wax.

Read his succinct wording with care

Jack@European_Parts · May 25, 2014

BFM can have a regulator in the main fuel rail or in the filter back by tank based on PR codes and chassis break.

This ecu is due for a firmware update......

A complete auto-scan with PR code tag picture in trunk/service book would help to correlate data......... I crossed what I could.

There is no FP sensor......

A note:
The OXS heaters are shorted to the actual signal lines not just open or ground.

This fault is helpful:

17884 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump
P1476 - 002 - Malfunction / Insufficient Vacuum
Now off to search for it, and maybe look around under the hood.
Never have seen this DTC.

It tells you the car is running lean because of a pretty good vacuum leak "most likely". It may not be the only problem, however, is most likely.
The thing is........... the leak,.......its getting worse, and already has damaged the OXS sensors by getting them real hot inducing the short, also most likely.

Yes............
OXS heater circuits share a feed of the fuse.
Be forewarned they share current tracks for ground completing monitored resistance through the ecu itself.
When they short like this........... it can damage the ecu for a few things such as............. OXS lambda control, and wipe out the TV drivers, etc.
The fuse won't give before the internals do most of the time...... since other shared consumers are on the track.

Track the leak first and isolate, all ports and seal/gasket points.

Have a great Holiday!

aTOMic · May 26, 2014

Jack@European_Parts said:
BFM can have a regulator in the main fuel rail or in the filter back by tank based on PR codes and chassis break.
There IS one on the fuel rail. Excuse my ignorance, but I was checking all the vac lines I could reach while the car was running, and the FPR was getting ~20mm/Hg or whatever the standard vacuum measure on a Mity-Vac is, but I was surprised there was no change in the idle when I d/c'd the FPR. I then pulled 20 mm(again,? on the units) and it held fine, and no change in idle quality.
This ecu is due for a firmware update......
That's another mystery... the MMI software is unbelievably old, as in many AW veterans said they had never seen such an old version. The consensus - for MMI at least - was to not try to update (pics to follow)
A complete auto-scan with PR code tag picture in trunk/service book would help to correlate data......... I crossed what I could.
I'll see if I can get it posted soon, sorry...
There is no FP sensor......
Strange. But true.
A note:
The OXS heaters are shorted to the actual signal lines not just open or ground.
That's... good?
This fault is helpful:

17884 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump
P1476 - 002 - Malfunction / Insufficient Vacuum
Now off to search for it, and maybe look around under the hood.
Never have seen this DTC.

It tells you the car is running lean because of a pretty good vacuum leak "most likely". It may not be the only problem, however, is most likely.
The thing is........... the leak,.......its getting worse, and already has damaged the OXS sensors by getting them real hot inducing the short, also most likely.
I'm afraid I may have cooked them; but it's been several days/80 miles since I did that... I had no idea that lean idle made worse by my 'sperimentin' could damage the car...
Yes............
OXS heater circuits share a feed of the fuse.
Be forewarned they share current tracks for ground completing monitored resistance through the ecu itself.
When they short like this........... it can damage the ecu for a few things such as............. OXS lambda control, and wipe out the TV drivers, etc.Greattttttttt...
The fuse won't give before the internals do most of the time...... since other shared consumers are on the track.

Track the leak first and isolate, all ports and seal/gasket points.
Should I use propane? I tried that CRC MAF cleaner but it hardly altered the idle, and I sprayed a lot right into the nipple in the front of the manifold behind the black/white check valve to gauge its volatility. Yes I'll save you the typing, I work outdoors with a shop fan ten feet away (it's in the 90s here) blasting me - so vapors building up = not possible.
Have a great Holiday!

Thanks, you too!
-Tom

Jack@European_Parts · May 26, 2014

Well the car has adapted around the leaks most likely at idle to keep alive....

Clear the DTC memory........ then try and do crimp offs and sprays to isolate the leak at idle.

See if that helps.

aTOMic · May 27, 2014

You did notice my bold comments inserted in your quote, right?

What should I use that's volatile enough to effect the idle through a tiny leak but won't hurt the rubber parts? Propane? I have ether (diesel start fluid spray) that MAF cleaner didn't make a difference, is why I ask. Brake cleaner?

thanks again Jack,
Tom

Jack@European_Parts · May 27, 2014

Sorry man forgot to post the pic.

This is what I like

jakematic · May 28, 2014

Cross posting these for Tom as he's having some computer challenges and he's an old compadre from AW.

So far all I can report re the health of the new MAF is in measuring block 002 at 5000 RPM my wife think the highest she saw was 280. Probably 80% throttle.

I've got all these logs I dunno how to post. Or if they would even be helpful.

The evap one @ 80 MPH was the insufficient vacuum. Just level ground, nothing remarkable

Code:

Sunday,25,May,2014,14:57:20:64698
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


Mileage: 189730   Repair Order: at 80 mph to Clksvill



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 01: Engine       Labels: 077-910-560-BFM.LBL
Control Module Part Number: 4E0 910 560 A    HW: 4E0 907 560 
  Component and/or Version: 4.2L V8/5V      G   0050
           Software Coding: 0007773
            Work Shop Code: WSC 98765 666 30770
                      VCID: 1F4D5514CE4166E682D-804A
2 Faults Found:

17981 - Left Engine Mount Solenoid Valve (N144) 
            P1573 - 004 - Open Circuit
17884 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump 
            P1476 - 002 - Malfunction / Insufficient Vacuum

Readiness: 0110 1101

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
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Address 01: DTCs cleared
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Address 01: DTCs cleared

Code:

Thursday,22,May,2014,15:06:36:64698 VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0 Data version: 20140212

Mileage: 189565 Repair Order: SJV OK

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (4E0 910 560 A)

15:06:15 Group 002: General 640 /min Engine Speed (G28) 20.3 % Engine Load 4.10 ms Injection Timing 7.56 g/s Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)

15:06:15 Group 032: Lambda Control (Mixture Adaptation) 1.9 % Adaptation (Idle) Bank 1 Sensor 1 6.3 % Adaptation (Partial) Bank 1 Sensor 1 1.9 % Adaptation (Idle) Bank 2 Sensor 1 6.3 % Adaptation (Partial) Bank 2 Sensor 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (4E0 910 560 A)

15:07:00 Group 002: General 680 /min Engine Speed (G28) 20.3 % Engine Load 4.10 ms Injection Timing 7.31 g/s Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)

15:07:00 Group 033: Lambda Control 7.0 % Lambda Control Bank 1 Sensor 1 1.580 V Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 1 0.8 % Lambda Control Bank 2 Sensor 1 1.560 V Sensor Voltage Bank 2 Sensor 1

15:07:00 Group 034: Lambda Control (Aging Check: Bank 1 Sensor 1) 640 /min Engine Speed (G28) 445.0°C Catalytic Converter Bank 1 Temp. 0.353 Dynamic Factor Bank 1 Sensor 1 Test OFF Result Lambda Aging

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (4E0 910 560 A)

15:07:23 Group 002: General 640 /min Engine Speed (G28) 19.5 % Engine Load 3.69 ms Injection Timing 6.08 g/s Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)

15:07:23 Group 033: Lambda Control -0.8 % Lambda Control Bank 1 Sensor 1 1.520 V Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 1 -7.8 % Lambda Control Bank 2 Sensor 1 1.520 V Sensor Voltage Bank 2 Sensor 1

15:07:23 Group 034: Lambda Control (Aging Check: Bank 1 Sensor 1) 680 /min Engine Speed (G28) 440.0°C Catalytic Converter Bank 1 Temp. 0.353 Dynamic Factor Bank 1 Sensor 1 Test OFF Result Lambda Aging

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (4E0 910 560 A)

15:07:34 Group 002: General 680 /min Engine Speed (G28) 18.8 % Engine Load 3.28 ms Injection Timing 5.42 g/s Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)

15:07:34 Group 034: Lambda Control (Aging Check: Bank 1 Sensor 1) 640 /min Engine Speed (G28) 440.0°C Catalytic Converter Bank 1 Temp. 0.353 Dynamic Factor Bank 1 Sensor 1 Test OFF Result Lambda Aging

15:07:34 Group 035: Lambda Control (Aging Check: Bank 2 Sensor 1) 680 /min Engine Speed (G28) 440.0°C Catalytic Converter Bank 2 Temp. 0.353 Dynamic Factor Bank 2 Sensor 1 Test OFF Result Lambda Aging

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (4E0 910 560 A)

15:07:44 Group 002: General 640 /min Engine Speed (G28) 19.5 % Engine Load 3.28 ms Injection Timing 5.31 g/s Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)

15:07:44 Group 036: Lambda Control (Sensor Readiness - After Catalyst) 0.695 V Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2 B1-S2 OK Result Lambda Availability 0.635 V Sensor Voltage Bank 2 Sensor 2 B2-S2 OK Result Lambda Availability

15:07:44 Group 037: Lambda Control (Delta Lambda Bank 1) 19.5 % Engine Load 0.695 V Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2 -0.004 Delta Lambda Bank 1 Sensor 2 B1-S1 OK Result Delta Lambda B1

Jack@European_Parts · May 28, 2014

Have you verified fuel volume yet?

Have you tried to run with MAF unplugged?

This combination of DTCs must mean something!(AKA no fuel pressure sensor on BFMs?)

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