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Thread: Testbench setup?

  1. #171
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    Guys, quick question, for the MK5 Golf 1K platform, I know its possible to make a quick/dirty bench loom to communicate via OBD to a MK5 Golf cluster using power, ground, CAN High / CAN L etc, is it possible to add an ECU to this setup without adding a CAN Gateway? Can I just add the CAN H/L from the ECU to the cluster/OBD CAN H/L and have the cluster communicate with the ECU?

  2. #172
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Indeed it is possible but sometimes you may not get the response you seek unless a proper pull up termination is implemented or a filter for traffic.

    Always best to incorporate a gateway.
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  4. #173
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    @DV52

    I am now in your debt kind sir . I am now happy sitting between 19 - 27 L which is more than perfect to get rid of the error message . Now to the next part of figuring out how to trick the post 2006 clusters to work on single wire setup :P so we don't need to swap fuel senders to make the gauge work , but this is a totally different topic. I will send over a case of beer or your choice of beverage if you PM me an adresss. Cheers

  5. #174
    Verified VCDS User DV52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjDvr View Post
    @DV52

    I am now in your debt kind sir . I am now happy sitting between 19 - 27 L which is more than perfect to get rid of the error message . Now to the next part of figuring out how to trick the post 2006 clusters to work on single wire setup :P so we don't need to swap fuel senders to make the gauge work , but this is a totally different topic. I will send over a case of beer or your choice of beverage if you PM me an adresss. Cheers
    DjDvr: Arrhhhh........... I always like it when I have someone in my debt!!! However, my price for advice that actually helps someone (it happens very rarely in my experience) is much, much higher than a "case of beer".

    Instead, and as a quid-pro-quo - I simply need your undying gratitude and I ask that you share any findings from your test-bench adventures on this forum. Both of these forms of payment are far more valuable to me than a "slab" (Aussie term for a case of beer).

    Don
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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  7. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    DjDvr: Arrhhhh........... I always like it when I have someone in my debt!!! However, my price for advice that actually helps someone (it happens very rarely in my experience) is much, much higher than a "case of beer".

    Instead, and as a quid-pro-quo - I simply need your undying gratitude and I ask that you share any findings from your test-bench adventures on this forum. Both of these forms of payment are far more valuable to me than a "slab" (Aussie term for a case of beer).

    Don
    The eternal gratitude is automatically gained for someone who helps form the kindness of his heart so you have that , the slab was an extra thank you I would send as I was trying to understand the da** logic of the fuel thing for a while now . A nice suitecase will follow for my test bench and I will detail that in great detail once I finish. For now it seems a 100 ohm variable resitance gives me for the A3 clusters 19 to 27 L playroom and a 500 ohm one only gives me FULL . 55 L no matter where I turn it , so will give it a try with a 50 ohm one as well .

    Next step for me will be understanding the difference between 2003 to ~2006 vag cars with 1 fuel sender wire and the 2006+ one with 2 sender wires and looking for a way to trick that without having to mount a new fuel sender. The "old" ones are like this:

    https://imgur.com/gFzCWU5


    where the 2006+ ones have the extra wire on position 4 as well and new cluster complain without the 4 wire so that is my next project for now but at least I have a good starting point now :P
    Last edited by Uwe; 04-24-2020 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Added Image in-line

  8. #176
    Verified VCDS User DV52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjDvr View Post
    The eternal gratitude is automatically gained for someone who helps form the kindness of his heart so you have that , the slab was an extra thank you I would send as I was trying to understand the da** logic of the fuel thing for a while now . A nice suitecase will follow for my test bench and I will detail that in great detail once I finish. For now it seems a 100 ohm variable resitance gives me for the A3 clusters 19 to 27 L playroom and a 500 ohm one only gives me FULL . 55 L no matter where I turn it , so will give it a try with a 50 ohm one as well .

    Next step for me will be understanding the difference between 2003 to ~2006 vag cars with 1 fuel sender wire and the 2006+ one with 2 sender wires and looking for a way to trick that without having to mount a new fuel sender. The "old" ones are like this:

    https://imgur.com/gFzCWU5


    where the 2006+ ones have the extra wire on position 4 as well and new cluster complain without the 4 wire so that is my next project for now but at least I have a good starting point now :P
    DjDvr: Probably wise to set aside any more hagiography!!

    Again, I'm not familiar with these early model A3s, but your diagram above does make sense from an electrical perspective; it looks like it's a simple 2-wire transducer. Forgive me if you already know this stuff, but as we have discussed, the fuel level sensor is ostensibly a device whose electrical resistance changes with the volume of fuel in the tank. And, as we both have observed through experimentation, the sensor can be easily mimicked by the type of "potentiometer" that is often used in electronic devices.

    There are 2 x ways of applying potentiometer type devices to an electrical circuit:it can can be configured as a simple "variable resistor", or it can be incorporated into the circuit design as a "potential divider"

    Hopefully a better way of understanding these two applications is via the diagram below:



    As you can see, when a potentiometer is used as a "variable resistor" , only 2 x pins are needed. In this mode, the measuring device (be it either the physical analogue meter, or more likely a "shunt" for the analogue meter) is wired in series with the transducer and what is actually being measured is the electrical current flowing through the variable resistor. As an interesting aside, circuits that have transducers wired in this way need to accommodate zero ohms in the sensor - so they always have some form of current limiting function in-circuit.

    The other way of using a potentiometer is as a "potential divider". These devices need 3 x pins and rather than measuring electrical current, as the name implies, these circuits instead measure electrical voltage (i.e. electrical potential).

    As the wiper on the potentiometer moves, the comparative resistances of R1 and R2 changes: the meter responds to the voltage variation across one of these resistors. A characteristic of potential divider circuits is that they need what's called a "wetting current" to produce the tap-off voltage that the measuring device monitors. Generally, this current is produced by a very stable voltage supply that is connected across the two ends of the potentiometer - that's why the third pin is needed in potential divider circuits (it's connected to the +ve side of the "reference voltage" supply)!

    I suspect (hope) that this explains the difference in the 2 x wire and 3 x wire fuel level sensors in the 2003 to ~2006 vag cars

    Don
    Last edited by DV52; 04-29-2020 at 06:38 PM.
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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  10. #177
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    Totally does explain it and also kind of ends my quest of trying to find a software solution for switching between the 2 mods as I am know almost 100% sure that will not be possible due to the difference and also no way other than changing the whole sending unit when mounting a facelift cluster on the 2 wire era cars. The fuel level sender is not detachable so will play around in the test bench and see if I can find another way as from 3 to 2 wire you could just close pin 2 and 3 and get a 2 wire setup but the other way around is see no way of doing it as the sender does not have the 3rd pin. I know the fuel pump + sender swaps in no problem and just need to run the 3rd wire from pin 2 to have working fuel gauge. Thank you again DV52

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  12. #178
    Verified VCDS User VASTech A.D.'s Avatar
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    Hello everyone!
    I`m trying to get connected with a RNS300 on the bench via gateway like in the picture below. Trouble is that i`m not able to establish connection with the radio or navi, only with gateway. Is there anything else what i must add in this schematic? Any termination resistors? Anyhow if i measure resistance on infotainment bus on the car shows me no resistance between lines. If I mount gateway and radio in the car it works. so on the bench it must work asewll.
    P.S. Pin 16 on the radio is connected to Vcc aswell.

    Thank you!



  13. #179
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VASTech A.D. View Post
    If I mount gateway and radio in the car it works. so on the bench it must work asewll.
    P.S. Pin 16 on the radio is connected to Vcc aswell.
    Does the radio power up on the bench? If not, it may be looking for a CAN message from another module, like a "virtual Terminal 15".

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  14. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by VASTech A.D. View Post
    Trouble is that i`m not able to establish connection with the radio or navi, only with gateway.
    Is the RNS 300 activated in the gateway coding???

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