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Thread: Testbench setup?

  1. #161
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    Need some help with CAN signal pairing between different generations...

    Current bench test setup:
    - 1K0 gateway (1K0907530C) from VW MK5. Obviously it has Convenience and Diagnostic CAN buses. Other ones doesn't matter now.
    - Parking aid ECU from Audi A6 C5. It has K2 line for diagnostics and Convenience CAN as shown in Elsa diagrams. A6 C5 facelift instrument cluster acts as "gateway" just like on newer cars. But because of instrument cluster is so bulky I'd like to wake up parking aid ECU with some real gateway which is many times smaller in size.

    I can connect gateway with VCDS, but parkings doesn't want to open a connection to K2.
    Parking aid ECU is ok, was tested in real A6 C5 car.
    Tried with parkings checked in installation list and unchecked. Didn't help either way.
    Wiring rechecked multiple times.

    Voltages on convenience CAN-H = (0.25V ... 0.32V changing) and CAN-L = (4.64V ... 4.75V changing) with parking ECU connected (don't have a scope for now, but analogue multimeter shows it).
    Voltages on convenience CAN-H = (2.53V) and CAN-L = (2.46V) with everything disconnected (except gateway itself).

    Isn't it possible?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Val View Post
    Isn't it possible?
    I am skeptical that it is possible. C5 Audi uses almost certainly used older CAN protocols (TP1.6) vs. Mk5 (TP2.0).

    -Uwe-
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  3. #163
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    Great thread and thanks for all the help. I've been able to log onto the RNS510 and alter the settings. Awesome input from everyone. Thanks again.
    Thanks Brett

  4. #164
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    Great thread guys. I have been tinkering with an Audi Q7 4M MIB2 (Nvidia - not newer qualcomm) bench setup. I too have struggled with the "virtual" T15 signal and the issue with this setup is you either need to have a CAN sniffer that can generate (TX) CAN messages (which I have) or have an appropriate J393 (BCM2) to generate the T15 message to wake-up the MIB2 which then wakes up the screen. The issue with the Q7 J393 is two fold. (1) Unless you get the CAN gateway from the car that the J393 was taken from, you get Component Protection activated. When CP is activated on this module it pretty much immobilisers the car - no T15 message. In a real car, you won't be able to start it. (2) All Q7s have Kessy (here in Oz anyway).. Hence, you need the key from the car and the antennas setup etc... very painful.

    With the J393 disconnected, and can get the screen to wake-up but then it goes off again using CAN messages I have captured from my car. I am wondering whether I am missing some other CAN messages or whether. I have the wiring incorrect. With the MIB2 high, you need a CAN connected screen and controller or the MIB2 will definitely reboot.

    Speaking with someone else, they have successfully got this same bench setup working with the Audi MIB2 stuff connected to a VW MQB CAN Gateway (5Q0907530M) which is also connected to the J393 from the same car (5Q0937086Q). I would obviously like to just send the appropriate CAN messages to get this working on the bench without J393 CP activated.

    For those interested, the Terminal Management characteristics on the Q7 4M are:

    Scenario:
    1. Pressing the start / stop button E408 when term. 15 is "off"
    2. The signal of the pressed button E408 is transmitted to the central control unit for convenience system J393 via discrete lines.
    3. The key test is performed by J393 (correct key in interior /immobiliser) → steps 4, 5 and 6 are performed in parallel with key test.
    4. Release message from J393 to electrical steering column lock J764 → J764 released.
    5. J393 activates term. S and term. 15 (allowing short time delay between term. S and term. 15).
    6. Irrespective of the engine starting conditions, J393 generates the term. 50 signal (discrete line and CAN signal) for approx.200ms in order to the fill the start request memory in the ECU → When term. 15 is turned on, J623 decides whether the conditions for engine starting have been met (based on brake / clutch / driving position) and switches the term. 50 relay.

    If the start/stop button is pressed while the ignition is on, J393 decides on the basis of a bus signal from J623 whether an engine start request has been generated or not. If an engine start request has been generated, term. 50 (hardware and CAN signals) is output for approx. 200 ms. If no engine start request is generated, term. 15 is switched off if the switch-off conditions have been met.

    The selector lever position is evaluated by J623 (CAN message and hardware signal starter enable, P/N signal).

    Finally, does anyone know what effects CP has on a CAN gateway? As I mentioned before, on a Q7 4M, CP on the J393 pretty much immobilisers the car. CP on the instrument cluster removes DIS info, with MIB2, you get limited audio from the speakers.

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  6. #165
    Verified VCDS User DV52's Avatar
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    spyder: G'day cobber!! I had pretty much the same problem on my MQB platform test-bench (but for different reasons). My first test-bench incarnation had a "forced" T15 solution whereby I used a single-pole, single-through hand switch to create the T15 bus voltage from the test-bench power supply- the problem that I created though was some weird incompatibility with some BCM (called J519 in the WD) functions depending on the position of the simulated ignition switch on my test bench. In frustration, I eventually wired an old single contact telephone relay that I found in my junk box to the BCM pin that controlled the Terminal 15 voltage supply relay (it's called J329 on the MQB WD) like this:



    Works like a charm on my test bench (but I only have 1 x BCM)

    I also have multiple CP errors on the test bench because I sourced the CAN Gateway, the Instrument module and the BCM from different cars. Since my test bench is mainly used for educational purpose (mine and a phalanx of local forum members), CP errors aren't an issue - albeit you are correct that CP on the hex17 module does impact the FIS (but not for Output tests -03)

    Don

    PS: isn't it comforting that DIN 72552 designation for switched voltage is half that of the designation for fixed "hard" voltage? I assume that if there was such a thing as a switched-earth that it would have the designation T15.5!!
    Last edited by DV52; 09-16-2019 at 08:55 AM.
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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  8. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderboyant View Post
    Great thread guys. I have been tinkering with an Audi Q7 4M MIB2 (Nvidia - not newer qualcomm) bench setup. I too have struggled with the "virtual" T15 signal and the issue with this setup is you either need to have a CAN sniffer that can generate (TX) CAN messages (which I have) or have an appropriate J393 (BCM2) to generate the T15 message to wake-up the MIB2 which then wakes up the screen. The issue with the Q7 J393 is two fold. (1) Unless you get the CAN gateway from the car that the J393 was taken from, you get Component Protection activated. When CP is activated on this module it pretty much immobilisers the car - no T15 message. In a real car, you won't be able to start it. (2) All Q7s have Kessy (here in Oz anyway).. Hence, you need the key from the car and the antennas setup etc... very painful.

    With the J393 disconnected, and can get the screen to wake-up but then it goes off again using CAN messages I have captured from my car. I am wondering whether I am missing some other CAN messages or whether. I have the wiring incorrect. With the MIB2 high, you need a CAN connected screen and controller or the MIB2 will definitely reboot.

    Speaking with someone else, they have successfully got this same bench setup working with the Audi MIB2 stuff connected to a VW MQB CAN Gateway (5Q0907530M) which is also connected to the J393 from the same car (5Q0937086Q). I would obviously like to just send the appropriate CAN messages to get this working on the bench without J393 CP activated.
    I finished putting together a bench setup over the weekend and was able to power it up by pressing "MENU" on E380. No T15 message was required on Infotainment CAN - nothing is connected to those pins for the time being. MIB CAN is connected as normal to J794/E380.

    J685 - 8W1919605
    J794 - 8W5035880D
    E380 - 8W0919614T

    I do see a couple differences with my setup:
    - J794 is a MHI2Q unit (Qualcomm)
    - CP is not active on J794

    Haven't had a chance to capture live CAN data from my B9 so leaving it all disconnected from power for now. Hoping I can write some code to emulate the missing heartbeat from J533 to prevent J794 from eventually timing out and triggering CP.

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  10. #167
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    Hey, bringing this up a bit as I have also started playing around with a test bench.
    I am running a PQ35 A3 BCM + Can Gateway specifically for cluster wakeup but I hit a snag with 2 things:

    1. What do you guys use as a coil to read the key ?
    2. Since the 2005+ clusters need 2 wires for fuel how do you guys get rid of the low fuel warning ? I can remove all bulb warnings with a simple led setup but cannot get rid of the low fuel warning error.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Cheers,

  11. #168
    Verified VCDS User DV52's Avatar
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    Dj: Hi and great to read that you are cultivating an interest in a test-bench. They certainly are an excellent device for furthering one's knowledge. However, I agree that they can be frustrating and cantankerous (especially in the early stages of development).

    So- with the caveat that my test-bench has an MQB base (rather than your 8P platform) - I have managed to simulate the petrol-tank function on my test-bench (but ironically for quite the opposite reason - I actually wanted to generate the low-fuel warning error albeit under controlled conditions). See the graduated dial that I've attached to the instrument panel in the upper part of my picture below:



    Of course, my solution for the petrol tank simulation won't work in your test-bench. However, whilst I don't have access to the WD for the 8P - I have been able to develop the following "2 x wire" set-up for the fuel gauge from a mk5 Golf (which has a similar build platform)



    In many ways, the mk5/8P set-up appears to be very similar to my MQB arrangement. As you can see, and as a very general statement - the sender part is analogous to a simple variable resistor. So you should be able to use one of these with the wiper pin (the center tag on the picture below) connected to the gauge pin on the module. Note: I'm not sure of the "wetting" current for these senders - so it's probably wise not to use a mini version of these variable resistors.



    BUT - the crucial bit is selecting the resistance value. I'm not sure what this might be for your hex17 module - but for my test-bench, I settled on 200 ohms. This value doesn't give me full gauge sweep - but it does allow me to hover comfortably at the ON/OFF point for the low-fuel warning error with my graduated scale set at around 50%

    Don
    Last edited by DV52; 03-28-2020 at 08:02 PM. Reason: changed description of where to connect wiper pin on variable resistor Changed WD too
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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  13. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    Dj: Hi and great to read that you are cultivating an interest in a test-bench. They certainly are an excellent device for furthering one's knowledge. However, I agree that they can be frustrating and cantankerous (especially in the early stages of development).

    So- with the caveat that my test-bench has an MQB base (rather than your 8P platform) - I have managed to simulate the petrol-tank function on my test-bench (but ironically for quite the opposite reason - I actually wanted to generate the low-fuel warning error albeit under controlled conditions). See the graduated dial that I've attached to the instrument panel in the upper part of my picture below:



    Of course, my solution for the petrol tank simulation won't work in your test-bench. However, whilst I don't have access to the WD for the 8P - I have been able to develop the following "2 x wire" set-up for the fuel gauge from a mk5 Golf (which has a similar build platform)



    In many ways, the mk5/8P set-up appears to be very similar to my MQB arrangement. As you can see, and as a very general statement - the sender part is analogous to a simple variable resistor. So you should be able to use one of these with the wiper pin (the center tag on the picture below) connected to earth, Note: I'm not sure of the "wetting" current for these senders - so it's probably wise not to use a mini version of these variable resistors.



    BUT - the crucial bit is selecting the resistance value. I'm not sure what this might be for your hex17 module - but for my test-bench, I settled on 200 ohms. This value doesn't give me full gauge sweep - but it does allow me to hover comfortably at the ON/OFF point for the low-fuel warning error with my graduated scale set at around 50%

    Don

    Thank you for the quick reply. Is the MQB also reliant on a 2 wire setup ? So 2 wires giving a resistance value that is then grounded ?
    I can certainly give that a try, I have 2 resistors for now that I can try with and earth those what I don't know is if it expects resistance on both wires to the dash or only on 1 what switch did you use for example ?

    Also what did you use for the coil to read the key ? Just a dismaneteled contact switch?

    Cheers,

  14. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjDvr View Post
    Thank you for the quick reply. Is the MQB also reliant on a 2 wire setup ? So 2 wires giving a resistance value that is then grounded ?
    For MQB, all 3 x wires in the sender are wire back to the hex17 module - and I assume the sender is earthed via an internal return path.


    Quote Originally Posted by DjDvr View Post
    I can certainly give that a try, I have 2 resistors for now that I can try with and earth those what I don't know is if it expects resistance on both wires to the dash or only on 1 what switch did you use for example ?
    I've changed my mk5 WD!
    On a closer inspection of my WD for the mk5, it seems that the wiper for the variable resistor should connect to the gauge pin on the hex17 module. Then connect one of the outer pins on the variable resistor to earth and the other pin on the variable resistor to the non-gauge pin on the module.

    Again - I'm just guessing, but extrapolating my amateur understanding of the WD - I assume that the module needs to always see a fixed value resistance between the non-gauge pin and earth. I suspect that this is how the wetting current on the sender is generated and this is how a fault in the sender is detected (I think there must be a fixed supply voltage for the sender on the non-gauge pin).



    Again guessing - I assume that the measurement part of the function is ostensibly the tapped-off voltage through the wiper at the gauge pin (I think)

    I didn't use any "switch" - none is needed, just a single variable resistor

    Quote Originally Posted by DjDvr View Post
    Also what did you use for the coil to read the key ? Just a dismantled contact switch?
    OK - this bit gets more complex and this is why I didn't address this matter in my first reply. At least for MQB, there was no actual need to read the key data on my test-bench to waken-up the other modules. What was required was to replicate the physical impact of the key operation as it affected the electrics. So yes, "just a dismantled contact switch - but wired into the hex44 module - which apparently generates the module wake-up message on the CAN bus. See the components on the lower part of my test-bench picture (note: I've "externalize" the C-switch in the ignition key because there is no actual physical key to close the "C" switch on key insertion- you might want to do the same)
    Last edited by DV52; 03-29-2020 at 07:22 PM.
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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