Cheaters? Recalls? Discuss

Jack@European_Parts said:

Here comes the corn cobb shoved in his ass........
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/03/news/companies/winterkorn-vw-diesel-scandal/index.html

Click to expand...

Germany could prosecute him on behalf of the US, but since he's a German citizen, he can't be extradited out of Germany.

-Uwe-

Germany is going to get this dude..........

Not illegal in the UK, it was and is still not mandotory to have the vw fix fail, the engine was never designed to have this software and as such is causing so many problems.

I did wright to Mr Willis stating that the only way VW Audi would get there hands on my car is to fit an addblue system which should have been the case from the start, even though this is not without fault it is far better than the fix fail that are trying to impose.

Click to expand...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/mot-rules-changing-week-make-12451659

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/848920/car-emissions-test-diesel-VW-pollution

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ions-the-legal-safety-and-health-implications

Guidance
Modifying your vehicle’s emissions: the legal, safety and health implications


Published 2 February 2018


The law

Under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulations 61(7) and 61A(3)) and the Road Traffic Act 1998 (Section 42) it is an offence to use on a road a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet.
The potential penalties are £1,000 for a car and £2,500 for a van, lorry or bus.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 75) it is an offence to alter a vehicle in such a way that the use of the vehicle on a road would be unlawful. A person altering the vehicle (if they knew or believed that the vehicle would be used on the road) could be found guilty of an offence under the Act.
Potential penalties are unlimited fines.

The UK has a long tradition of allowing vehicle owners relative freedom to change their vehicles to suit their specific requirements, subject to ongoing compliance with the relevant UK construction standards. These changes may be purely cosmetic, or to improve the usability of the vehicle for its owner, or to alter its performance.
There are, however, circumstances where modifications may result in legal, safety and/or health implications for the vehicle owner, its occupants, other road users, and the wider population. The key message is that even if you think you know what you’re doing, if making modifications yourself, there can still be unintended consequences. It is advisable to have any work checked by a competent professional mechanic and ensure you stay safe and within the law.
Making changes to the engine management, emissions control, exhaust or braking systems carry the highest risk of unintended consequences.
Legal implications

A person using (or causing or permitting to be used) a vehicle on the public road, which does not comply with the emissions standards it was designed to meet, is committing an offence.
All vehicle owners should be aware of the need to inform their insurers of modifications made to the vehicle, whatever form these might take, as changes to the vehicle potentially alter the risk being insured.
It is not always obvious to vehicle owners that some modifications will make the vehicle illegal to use on the road, irrespective of whether the insurer is prepared to provide cover. For example, removing a catalytic converter or diesel particulate filter will almost certainly result in a vehicle’s emissions exceeding type approval limits and make the vehicle illegal to drive on the road. Engine re-mapping may also result in non-compliant emissions.
It is the driver who is responsible for ensuring compliance.
Safety implications

A badly modified vehicle has the potential to kill its occupants and pollute the air. Making changes to the engine management system in an attempt to increase performance, coupled with the removal of all or part of the emissions control system, may lead to significantly higher levels of harmful exhaust emissions which can then find their way into the vehicle’s interior. Incorrectly fitted parts or unapproved changes to a vehicle can lead to a potentially deadly outcome for vehicle occupants.
Health implications

Emissions standards for cars have become increasingly stringent in order to protect public health and improve air quality. Measures to tackle pollutants such as nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and particulate matter have been developed by vehicle manufacturers. They involve increasingly complex engine management systems, and use of technologies such as exhaust gas recirculation, catalytic converters, diesel particulate filters and selective catalyst reduction systems.
Tampering with or removing emissions control equipment can result in substantial increases in toxic exhaust gases:

• carbon monoxide – a colourless, odourless and tasteless gas that is highly toxic and is one of the most common causes of fatal poisoning, accounting for around 25 deaths a year in the UK
• nitrogen dioxide – a nasty smelling gas which can irritate the eyes and lungs, reducing immunity to lung infections
  • its effects are estimated to be equivalent to nearly 23,500 deaths in the UK per year
  • it contributes as well to the formation of photochemical smog, with a significant impact on human health
• particulate matter – tiny pieces of solid particles and liquid droplets which when inhaled can cause serious health effects
  • particulate matter contributes to the risk of developing cardiovascular diseases and lung cancer and its effects are estimated to be equivalent to nearly 29,000 early deaths in the UK

Click to expand...

Jack, I'm not talking about dpf delete or tunner software, all I said was get the firmware rolled back.
there is no law in the UK that states it is required to have the VW fixfail applied which is well documented, the emission levels are well within the UK requierd regulations.
The new MOT requlations coming in state that the vehicle must be fitted with a working DPF and not emit any smoke and be within the smoke test limits stated all of which the emission system did before the new software so can not see how any Uk law is or will be broken by not having the updated software applied.

As for the amount of deaths being caused by NOX I can remember a report done by the British government in the early 60 regarding NOX and the effects also regarding the file type that can and does cause cancer. But like all money making machines this got brushed under the carpet.

If the old software was deemed illegal and a cheat device, it is indeed I believe illegal to revert a car based on how I interpret your law as written aforementioned, but are you sure or are you a lawyer?

I known if you do such a thing here, you are in some deep shit if caught willfully doing it!

I'm not lawyer, but I'll give my interpretation: There's probably no legal requirement to apply the fixfail software to a car, but once it has been applied, it might indeed be illegal to roll it back.

-Uwe-

Jack@European_Parts said:

If the old software was deemed illegal and a cheat device, it is indeed I believe illegal to revert a car based on how I interpret your law as written aforementioned, but are you sure or are you a lawyer?

I known if you do such a thing here, you are in some deep shit if caught willfully doing it!

Click to expand...

Different countries and totally different laws, I wish the Uk government had taken the stance of USA government and remove all affected cars from its roads and got an emissions-cutting change to its US cars which is far more effective” than the cheaper solution for European models are offered , as far as VW are concerned they have broken no European or UK laws, the current levels of pollution being emitted from these vehicles without the cheat removed is still within the levels set out by all these European governments and why VW are denying any wrong doing as there affected vehicles are within the emission limits stated.

Despite issuing fixes for its EU models Volkswagen says it has not broken the law in Europe, although this is being challenged by class action civil lawsuits brought about not by European governments but the general public, However, Volkswagen while it accepts that software was fitted to cars in Europe to detect emission testing, it doesn't amount to a "defeat device" under EU law and as such In Europe, the legal position is more opaque. While VW has admitted to installing cheat software in almost 9m diesel cars, at the same time it maintains the technology did not violate current EU laws.

So as you can see, as far as VW are concerned they have not broken any laws within the UK, it is not mandatory or a legally required to have the so called fix applied, if cars are allowed to run without the fix and still in the original state they where sold then there can be no law against an owner putting his or her car back to stock sold as conditions, it could be stated that the so called fix is doing far more damage and putting drivers life's at risk having the fix as there cars can develop a fault causing the vehicle to suddenly reduce speed (limp mode)

I do not say I agree with this and think all affected vehicles should be removed from the European roads, but this is not about doing the right thing it about the European governments greed and making money regardless of how many life's are lost.
What I still do not understand though is if as stated by VW that they have not broken any laws within the UK why was a software fix rolled out for all its affected UK vehicles. As it stands it is not a legal requirement under the Department For Transport to have the VW fix applied.

The laws in the UK are not the EU and are as aforementioned pretty clear to me.
The UK trades on the Pound.....

I'm not lawyer, but I'll give my interpretation: There's probably no legal requirement to apply the fixfail software to a car, but once it has been applied, it might indeed be illegal to roll it back.

-Uwe-

Click to expand...

I am not a lawyer either, however, I did take this matter a step further and received a legal opinion & from actual lawyers here in the USA and which practice in UK law internationally, in addition requests to governing agencies in the UK and USA all came back with the same continuity, right?

They all say it is "illegal" & with nothing indicated to be found for vagueness or open to interpretation & which would allow someone to circumvent a law or outside the scope of the off road use etc., but again is part of the rule, right?

Cars which are used for public highways in the USA or UK must all meet specific criteria & in order to be operated lawfully or maintain an exemption, right?

Rolling back a software which was illegal & again at time of import or introduced into commerce, "by default", was or becomes illegal and because it never comported with the law or when it was initially certified to comply & based on a falsity use of willful pervasive deception, right?

That is what Fraud is, isn't it?

Jack@European_Parts said:

Rolling back a software which was illegal & again at time of import or introduced into commerce, "by default", was or becomes illegal and because it never comported with the law or when it was initially certified to comply & based on a falsity use of willful pervasive deception, right?

Click to expand...

That doesn't sit well with the fact that it is at the owners discretion in the UK whether or not to have the "fix" applied, there is no legal compulsion to have the "fix" applied.

Given that is the case then what is the difference between not having the "fix" applied, and reverting back to the pre-"fix" state if the "fix" causes unreliability? In both cases the emissions remain at a value considerably higher than those disclosed by VAG, but given that the UK Government have said they will not recertify cars which have not had the "fix" applied into a higher emissions bracket there is no penalty of increased taxation from not having the "fix" applied.

There are certainly many VAG owners in the UK declining the offer of the "fix".

Sacha35 said:

Different countries and totally different laws, I wish the Uk government had taken the stance of USA government and remove all affected cars from its roads

Click to expand...

The USA did no such thing. VW offered certain incentives to owners of these cars, either a buy-back at well over market value (which many owners did take advantage of, hence the pictures of huge lots full of these cars) or a cash settlement and extended warranty in return for letting them "fix" the cars, but nobody is under any legal obligation to do either of these things.

I have two TDIs (a 2013 Passat and a 2015 Touareg), both bought new before the Dieselgate thing came to light. Neither of them has been "fixed". I may take advantage of the buyback on the Passat before it expires on September 1 of this year, but the Touareg is staying as is.

-Uwe-

PetrolDave said:

That doesn't sit well with the fact that it is at the owners discretion in the UK whether or not to have the "fix" applied, there is no legal compulsion to have the "fix" applied.

Given that is the case then what is the difference between not having the "fix" applied, and reverting back to the pre-"fix" state if the "fix" causes unreliability?

Click to expand...

Are the owners who get their cars "fixed" in the UK compensated like they are in the US, either with cash or an extended warranty? If so, then reverting the car to a pre-fix state would be fraud, no?

-Uwe-

Yup and contract breach right?

Jack@European_Parts said:

Yup and contract breach right?

Click to expand...

I doubt that would be the case, when the recall was introduced no incentives were given this only came to light last year (so no two years warranty given for affected parts only caused by the fix and the service book has to be kept upto date for this warranty to apply) as well as this, owners of vehicles have had the so called fix applied without their authorisation and without there knowledge, in some cases the fix has been applied to vehicles when the owner have specified not to have the fix applied and as such had the servicing garaged singed a disclaimer saying that they will not apply the fix, but has been done against the will wishes and is fully documented, because VW say it can not be rolled back as the servicing garages do not have access to the old software, the owners are now stuck with a broken vehicle and work carried out illegally and against there wishes.

You must remember VW can not be trusteed even now they are still rolling out the lies, I can remember getting my recall it was written on official UK Department For Transport headed paper which implied at the time that this was a legal requirement to have the fix applied the Department For Transport was not informed of this ongoing and VW was ordered to stop using the Department For Transport for this recall, many thousands of owners got caught out by this deceitfulness.

There may be a case from now and late 2017 when an incentive was given against defected parts caused by the fix being applied but I would still hesitate that any legal case would or could be brought about to an individual before this date as there was no incentive or legal requirement and in some cases work carried out against owners wishes.

You state the USA did no such thing, but by the courts ordering that affected vehicles must be brought into compliance or buy-back they have in effect the removal of such affected vehicles from its roads which has cased the stock pile which may have been brought about by addition, California, and a number of other states which chose to adopt California’s rules, apply emissions standards which are more ambitious than federal standards.

This is well worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds81qxg9p-I&feature=youtu.be

Uwe said:

Are the owners who get their cars "fixed" in the UK compensated like they are in the US, either with cash or an extended warranty?

Click to expand...

Neither cash nor extended warranty is offered in the UK.

The only offer is a "confidence building programme" which is a promise to consider whether to part pay for solving subsequent engine problems - but this appears to be nothing more than a public relations exercise with VAG claiming that early EGR failures are not related to the "fix" working the EGR harder and not actually offering any assistance with replacement & diagnosis costs.

So there is no compensation in reality and hence no fraud will be committed by the owner in reverting back to the pre-"fix" state.

The US has a negotiated a MUCH better deal from VAG than the UK has.......

"This is big business"

Click to expand...

"It's the law"

Click to expand...

Yep watched Dirty money hard Nox well worth watch for the interested, I know this is all about greed, money and corruption but what I still do not understand is the British government has not challenged this wrong doing, nor has is asked or got emission figures for the supposed fix showing the amount of reduction in emissions.

If you think this is bad on the British government for not challenging VW for the lies and corruption then put yourself in the domain of the British public whom are having to pay large sums of tax because the UK does not meet the emission standers set out by the European union.

To put this in simple text, VW (Germany) sold cars to the UK that are very polluting and try and cover this up (fraud of the highest count), VW get no fines or any penalty's from the UK government , then the European union (Germany) fine the British government for not meeting strict emission laws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otDlbto3-Y8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zKoFJ6P40

Sacha35 said:

Yep watched Dirty money hard Nox well worth watch for the interested, I know this is all about greed, money and corruption but what I still do not understand is the British government has not challenged this wrong doing, nor has is asked or got emission figures for the supposed fix showing the amount of reduction in emissions.

If you think this is bad on the British government for not challenging VW for the lies and corruption then put yourself in the domain of the British public whom are having to pay large sums of tax because the UK does not meet the emission standers set out by the European union.

To put this in simple text, VW (Germany) sold cars to the UK that are very polluting and try and cover this up (fraud of the highest count), VW get no fines or any penalty's from the UK government , then the European union (Germany) fine the British government for not meeting strict emission laws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otDlbto3-Y8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zKoFJ6P40

Click to expand...

It would appear from scuttlbutt that now Dodge and Ford are accused of the same thing as dieselgate.

Some of it is IMO they just hate diesels and want them gone.

Larimore.

Larry Manton said:

It would appear from scuttlbutt that now Dodge and Ford are accused of the same thing as dieselgate.

Some of it is IMO they just hate diesels and want them gone.

Larimore.

Click to expand...

Should have been gone in the sixties when Ford UK proved to the UK gov and the world that diesel is a carcinogenic substance which included exhaust fumes, so successive governments from around the glob have endorsed this cancer-causing substance all for greed and profit as they now have pharmacy on there side to make money from drugs and treatment.

I don't think it is a matter of hate for diesels but more of a way to promote a new bread in electric vehicles, think of the profit margins with just petrol & diesel being band in the UK from 2040, not just in new car sales but a complete infrastructure that can be completely monitored and switch on or off, meaning if someone does not want you to travel they can stop it.

Its not about making the planet greener or environmentally friendly, they could have done that back in the 70s with an American heated fuel injection design that proved it was easy to obtain 100 miles per gallon but that was bought of by petroleum company's. if anything it will be a lot less greener and environmentally friendly for us all taking the amount of industry involved in making an EV and good help anyone whom has a problem as if the battery's are anything like that used at McLaren, you can not put them out when a fire starts even when submerged underwater they keep burning.

Yes it will move the pollution to different areas, but it will not be less, and what they have not thought of is the impact it will have on our roads with the extra weight not to mention the rubber pollution due to the extra weight, not forgetting being stuck in traffic jams in mid winter with heating and lights on, how many broken down EV at the side of the road all waiting to be towed by guess what an EV truck that can only do three every hour because it needs charging.

Happy days ahead for our younger generation.

How long you think that deal will last?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...id-to-receive-rare-safe-passage-deal-from-u-s