Is the dealer lying to me?

Uwe · Apr 9, 2015

The trailing letters are different versions or revisions.

I don't do the parts catalog thing very well myself, but an R where there should be an S or an AA makes me all the more inclined to think "software bug" or "software incompatibility".

You're 100% confident that the wiring to sensor module is free of any issues, right?

-Uwe-

GaryM · Apr 10, 2015

The tech I spoke to when I picked the car up said he did a thorough check on the relevant wiring and it was all good, so short of pulling connectors and doing my own checks (which I'm slightly reluctant to do while it's still in the process of being looked at under warranty) then I can only really go on what I've been told.

I'm going to put a request out on one of the SEAT forums for an 09 controller scan from other members cars of the same generation to try and find out if any come back as having the same BCM (or indeed the same fault codes) as mine.

In the meantime, my car is now booked back into the dealers again on Monday.

dubTECH · Apr 10, 2015

Gary,

I've just taken a quick read through your problem, forgive me if I've missed something. You seem to be getting the same fault everytime you get the car back, but had anyone provided you with the GFF printout of the diagnostic procedure they followed? Don't let them bluff you off because by law you are allowed to see it. I have had customers remove their cars from VAG dealers and bring them to me, with the GFF printouts to find they haven't completed them. As for the wiring checks..... Resistance checks are a MUST in this case, not continuity as it proves nothing.
You know the sensor is good as it's been replaced, so either your BCM is faulty or the wiring. In a worst case a spare BCM could be coded and tested to see if it clears.(after a wiring check of course!

)

GaryM · Apr 11, 2015

dubTECH said:
Gary,

I've just taken a quick read through your problem, forgive me if I've missed something. You seem to be getting the same fault everytime you get the car back, but had anyone provided you with the GFF printout of the diagnostic procedure they followed? Don't let them bluff you off because by law you are allowed to see it. I have had customers remove their cars from VAG dealers and bring them to me, with the GFF printouts to find they haven't completed them. As for the wiring checks..... Resistance checks are a MUST in this case, not continuity as it proves nothing.
You know the sensor is good as it's been replaced, so either your BCM is faulty or the wiring. In a worst case a spare BCM could be coded and tested to see if it clears.(after a wiring check of course!)

No, I don't have any printouts of the actual GFF procedure. The resistance check is a very good question. I will ask the tech when I speak to him on Monday morning. The sensor has been replaced twice so I'm now 99% certain the cause of the problem lies elsewhere.

dubTECH · Apr 11, 2015

Lol at dealer techs, I was one for 12 years with vw and seat, trust me when I tell you half of them haven't a clue when it comes to manual electrical diagnostics, if the computer tells them there is a fault with said item, then it must mean it's broken. Never mind the fact that reading the actual the fault description is half way to providing accurate diagnosis.

Ask the dealer for the GFF and if you wish email it to me.

GaryM · Apr 11, 2015

Thanks dubTECH. I will try and get a GFF printout from the dealer. Am I correct in assuming that the tech simply just selects to print this out from within the VAS ODIS software?

Do you happen to have online access to any of the VAG systems? I would like to try and find out if BCM 5K0-937-087-R is listed for my particular car based on my VIN. The only cross-referencing I have been able to do is offline based on the year of my car (not using the VIN) and I definitely can't find the "R" version of the BCM listed for my car. A VIN based search would provide a more reliable and definitive answer.

If you do have access and are willing to help me out I can PM you my full VIN.

dubTECH · Apr 11, 2015

I will do as much as I can to help, I have contacts in lots of places that can supply me the info. But please bear in mind etka will only provide the latest revision part number. But I can check and see what your original part number was replaced with.

GaryM · Apr 11, 2015

dubTECH said:
I will do as much as I can to help, I have contacts in lots of places that can supply me the info. But please bear in mind etka will only provide the latest revision part number. But I can check and see what your original part number was replaced with.

The information I managed to source based on my model and year of car (i.e. not a VIN based search) was from an up-to-date version of ETKA. The results are shown below. These are all the BCM's listed for my year of car and as you can see, none of these are the "R" version. If any of the part numbers are clicked into, it will show any supersession part numbers but the "R" version isn't listed under any of those either so it's all a bit of a mystery.

I will of course flag this to the dealer but I would like to get my own independent VIN based search done if possible. Shall I PM you my VIN?

dubTECH · Apr 11, 2015

Yeah fire it through to me, I'm on holidays in France snowboarding at the mo but when I get home I'll see what I can get sorted.

GaryM · Apr 11, 2015

dubTECH said:
Yeah fire it through to me, I'm on holidays in France snowboarding at the mo but when I get home I'll see what I can get sorted.

Apologies for disturbing your après ski

I've now sent you a PM. No hurry but it would certainly be good if I was able to get this information from someone other than the dealer so I can clear up any confusion about what BCM my car is supposed to have.

I also did a search on PartsBase.org for part number 5K0937087R and it comes back as being fitted to both VW and SEAT cars. Looking under SEAT, it only shows that particular BCM as being fitted to the Alhambra (2011-2013) and not any other SEAT models :confused:

GaryM · Apr 13, 2015

The car is now back at the dealers again for a 5th time. The picture below is a record of the serial number and other details of the second replacement G273 interior monitoring sensor module that was fitted, for reference, in case it gets changed again...

I can now understand what dubTECH is saying about VAG techs. Having spoken to the tech again this morning they are clearly constrained by the diagnostic GFF procedures and tools they are told to follow / use. It is the machine that apparently also does any wiring checks as part of the procedure so I can only really deduce from this that it is probably unlikely that a Digital Multi-Meter goes anywhere near the car to manually check wires for continuity/voltage/resistance. The tech said that there were no software version updates showing for my BCM (which also confirms that the other dealer was lying when they said they had performed software updates on the BCM). He did say however that there are sometimes other software versions available that don't normally show up but which they can download and install if they are given access to them and authorisation by SEAT to use them. He is going to be speaking to the techs at SEAT so maybe they will come up with some options / solutions. I guess we shall see in due course.

I have requested the GFF printouts this time so hopefully I will at least get to see exactly what is/was done.

dubTECH · Apr 15, 2015

Gary,

I passed on the details to a friend, so I'm waiting to see what he comes back with.

The "techs" are not constrained to the use of ODIS, it is merely a tool with a test plan for idiots who do not understand vehicle systems and diagnostic procedures. They can use manual tools and over ride the values if they so wish.

GaryM · Apr 15, 2015

Thanks dubTECH.

No word from the dealer yet so I'm not sure if that is good news in that they are spending the time fault finding and trying different things out (new BCM, software updates etc.), or bad news in that they've just been standing around for days scratching their heads. I guess I'll ring them tomorrow and find out what the progress is.

To add insult to injury, on the way to the dealers on Monday morning the car in front tried to kill me by firing a high velocity stone at my windscreen which left a big conical chip right in the centre of the drivers view which is just my luck at the moment. So that's something else I am going to have to sort out when I get the car back :rolleyes:

GaryM · Apr 16, 2015

Well it appears to have been the latter (head scratching) and it looks like my car will be getting a new BCM. The dealer told me today that despite the tech having been in discussion with the techs at SEAT HQ, they haven't yet managed to resolve the fault and so have now ordered a new BCM on the assumption that my current one may be faulty in some way. Based on my previous posts it will be interesting to see what the model and software version is. At 450 GBP, all I can say is that I'm glad it's not me who's going to be paying for it.

Jef · Apr 17, 2015

dubTECH said:
The "techs" are not constrained to the use of ODIS, it is merely a tool with a test plan for idiots who do not understand vehicle systems and diagnostic procedures. They can use manual tools and over ride the values if they so wish.

When I was at the dealer and misGFF was the ruling queen of bad diagnostics, we had to do what it said the first time around. But when the car would return with the same issue, then we were allowed repair the vehicle. I replaced a few ECMs that I know were good. Flip side, I had a few good test ECMs. Thank you misGFF for those gifts.

GaryM · Apr 17, 2015

The dealer phoned today to let me know their parts delivery which included my new BCM didn't arrive today as expected so it will be next week until there is any further progress.

I took the opportunity to ask for the part number of the newly ordered BCM and was told it was 5K0937087AC (Z19). So the new BCM is a different part number to the 5K0937087R currently in my car. I'm not at home at the moment so I can't easily do a cross-reference of that number in the parts catalogue but a quick Google seems to suggest that it's a "PQ35 H+" BCM whereas my current one is a "PQ35 H". Logic suggests that a suffix of "+" means a newer revision BCM.

If the fault was down to buggy software in the 5K0937087R then hopefully that will be eliminated with different hardware which I'm sure will also have different software (hopefully without other bugs in). Fingers and toes are all crossed.

I guess I'll find out if we're still at square one when it's been fitted next week.

GaryM · Apr 18, 2015

OK, so I've now done some comprehensive digging around in the parts catalogue and found that the 5K0937087AC (Z19) BCM is a supersession of 5K0937087S (Z0J) which is the 6th one down in the table I put in post #48 (model PR-8SK). I would like to think/hope that the dealer has ordered a new BCM based on my VIN so on that assumption it suggests that my car should have had a 5K0937087S BCM from the factory and not a 5K0937087R. It makes you wonder sometimes if they just stick on what they can find in the parts bin at the time.

I am still none the wiser as to why there are so many different versions of the 5K0937087 BCM and whether the different suffix letters denote a physical hardware difference or just different software / default configuration.

Uwe · Apr 18, 2015

GaryM said:
I am still none the wiser as to why there are so many different versions of the 5K0937087 BCM and whether the different suffix letters denote a physical hardware difference or just different software / default configuration.

The part number it's stocked and sold by is the Software part number. In the case of the BCM in your scans, it's identical to the hardware part number, but that's certainly not always the case with control modules.

Be sure to post up a scan of your car when you get it back, regardless whether the problem is fixed or not.

-Uwe-

GaryM · Apr 22, 2015

I finally got my car back again today after a week and a half at the dealers and the interior monitoring sensor appears to be working as expected. Movement inside the car now sets off the alarm and there are no fault codes being returned from a scan. I will give it a couple of days before I'll be able to say for certain that the problem has definitely been cured after 5 attempts to do so.

It turns out that they didn't end up fitting the replacement BCM after having ordering one but instead ordered and fitted another G273 sensor module. What they actually did was a bit vague because the tech who did the work wasn't there when I turned up to collect the car but the service advisor said they had found that the replacement G273 fitted last time was actually faulty. It's a little worrying because it previously already had two replacement G273 modules and the third new one now fitted has a serial number that is only 4 digits away from the previous one so it must be from the same batch (see picture of the latest one below). I just hope there isn't some kind of inherent design fault with these modules that mean it will just end up going faulty again. I guess only time will tell but for now it seems that the old saying of 3rd time lucky may be end up having some truth to it.

Below is a scan that I did as soon as I got the car home showing that a 5K0937087R BCM is still fitted and that it still has the same 0064 software version. There is no sign of any harness repair yellow wiring to the G273 module either so it does look like just replacing that module with a non-faulty one appears to have resolved the issue (fingers crossed).

Code:

Wednesday,22,April,2015,17:57:42:55895
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 14.10.2.0 (x64)
Data version: 20150311
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: VSSZZZ1PZCRXXXXXX   License Plate: 
Mileage: 29690km-18448mi   Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 1P (7N0)
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 10 15 16 17 19 25 2E 37 42 44 46 52 55 56 62
          72

VIN: VSSZZZ1PZCRXXXXXX   Mileage: 29690km-18448miles

01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
02-Auto Trans -- Status: OK 0000
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: OK 0000
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
10-Park/Steer Assist -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
2E-Media Player 3 -- Status: OK 0000
37-Navigation -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: OK 0000
55-Headlight Range -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: OK 0000
62-Door, Rear Left -- Status: OK 0000
72-Door, Rear Right -- Status: OK 0000
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine (CEG)       Labels: 03L-906-022-CBA.clb
   Part No SW: 03L 906 022 TP    HW: 03L 906 022 GP
   Component: R4 2,0L EDC G000AG  5763  
   Revision: 13H14---    Serial number:               
   Coding: 0000078
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   VCID: 0603B34371FD7A11543-8053

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 02E-927-770.lbl
   Part No SW: 02E 300 057 N    HW: 02E 927 770 AL
   Component: GSG DSG AG6     512 3101  
   Revision: 05551213    Serial number: 00001111122064
   Coding: 0000020
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   VCID: 2447C9CBE701A8012A7-8071

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels: 1K0-907-379-60EC1F.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 BJ    HW: 1K0 907 379 BJ
   Component: ESP MK60EC1   H31 0121  
   Revision: 00H31001    
   Coding: 163B6012092600FD680C06E4901A0082350800
   Shop #: WSC 04941 000 00000
   VCID: 7BF5D2B7FA3F37F93BD-802E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC (J255)       Labels: 5K0-907-044.clb
   Part No SW: 5P0 907 044 S    HW: 5P0 907 044 S
   Component: Climatronic   H18 0804  
   Revision: 00001001    
   Coding: 0000000002
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Climatronic A01010
   ROD: EV_ClimaAutoBasis_SE35.rod
   VCID: 408F655BDB5994212EF-8015

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels: 1K0-937-08x-09.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 937 087 R    HW: 5K0 937 087 R
   Component: BCM PQ35 H    021 0064  
   Revision: BE021001    
   Coding: 46180A3E8025B0C042080080950089C442550008727D8560008040000040
   Shop #: WSC 54559 001 1048576
   VCID: 4487694BC74188010A7-8011

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1P0 955 119 D
   Component: Wischer 24111  26  0611 
   Coding: 00DB90

   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 1P0 955 559 A    HW: 1P0 955 559 A  Labels: 1P0-955-559.CLB
   Component: REGENLICHTSEN  H04 0003 
   Coding: 02542E

   Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1P0 951 171 A
   Component: Innenraumuebe  010 4974 
   Coding: 000000

   Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1K0 951 605 C
   Component: LIN BACKUP HO  H05 1501 
   Coding: 000000

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 10: Park/Steer Assist (J446)       Labels: 3C8-919-475.clb
   Part No SW: 5P0 919 475 C    HW: 8P0 919 475 N
   Component: PARKHILFE 8K  H08 0008  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: 12561133903563
   Coding: 100104
   Shop #: WSC 04941 000 00000
   VCID: 3B7512B7BABFF7F97BD-806E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 5N0-959-655.lbl
   Part No SW: 5N0 959 655 R    HW: 5N0 959 655 R
   Component: J234__A0E VW10 HI   1918  
   Revision: 23016000    Serial number: 003K0PPTCX2K  
   Coding: 0012357
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   VCID: 4C97416B2F114041C27-8019

   Subsystem 1 - Serial number: 6332MTS610773401 

   Subsystem 2 - Serial number: 6342MTS643573401 

   Subsystem 3 - Serial number: 6351HTS66QJC0AKR 

   Subsystem 4 - Serial number: 6361HTS6UVFA0AKJ 

   Subsystem 5 - Serial number: 00000000000000000

   Subsystem 6 - Serial number: 00000000000000000

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel (J527)       Labels: 5K0-953-569.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 953 521 AT    HW: 5K0 953 569 B
   Component: LENKS.MODUL   014 0140  
   Revision: FF010040    Serial number: 20111207200300
   Coding: 189A140002
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_SMLSNGVOLWSXS A01004
   ROD: EV_SMLSNGVOLWS.rod
   VCID: 7EF3DBA3E12D22D11C3-802B

   Multi Function Steering Wheel Control Module: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 1P0 959 538 B    HW: 1P0 959 538 B  Labels: 3C8-959-537.CLB
   Component: E221__MFL-TAP  H02 0102 
   Coding: E30000

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments (J285)       Labels: 5K0-920-xxx-17.clb
   Part No SW: 1P0 920 950 K    HW: 1P0 920 950 K
   Component: KOMBI         H05 0607  
   Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 410F01
   Shop #: WSC 131071 1023 2097151
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09 A04114
   ROD: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09_SE25.rod
   VCID: 3561048F949B21898D9-8060

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway (J533)       Labels: 7N0-907-530-V2.clb
   Part No SW: 7N0 907 530 M    HW: 1K0 907 951 
   Component: J533  Gateway H42 1623  
   Revision:   H42       Serial number: 281111F1000312
   Coding: 350203
   Shop #: WSC 04941 000 00000
   VCID: 3A7B17B3B585CEF160B-806F

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer (J334)       Labels: 5K0-920-xxx-25.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 953 234     HW: 5K0 953 234 
   Component: IMMO          H05 0607  
   Serial number:               
   Coding: 000000
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09 A03009
   ROD: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09_SE25.rod
   VCID: 6ADBE7F38DA5BE71D0B-803F

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 2E: Media Player 3 (J650)       Labels: 5N0-035-342.lbl
   Part No SW: 5N0 035 342 E    HW: 5N0 035 342 E
   Component: SG EXT.PLAYER H13 0240  
   Revision: A1001003    Serial number: 7661443894    
   Coding: 010000
   Shop #: WSC 04941 000 00000
   VCID: 2959D8FF40237569191-807C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 37: Navigation (J794)       Labels: 1K0-035-27x-37.clb
   Part No SW: 5P0 035 191 G    HW: 5P0 035 191 G
   Component: RNS315-EU   H35 0263  
   Serial number: SEZAZ2L9157843
   Coding: 040004010402000000000002
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_RNS315EUV2UDS A01004
   ROD: EV_RNS315EUV2UDS.rod
   VCID: 2F6D36E776C71B59C75-807A

   Data medium: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3AA 919 866 
   Component: EUR_W_0038  0038 

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver (J386)       Labels: 3C0-959-70X-GEN4.clb
   Part No SW: 3C8 959 701     HW: 3C0 959 793 C
   Component: TUER-SG FT    002 0508  
   Revision: 12110009    Serial number: 0003506013
   Coding: 0012B0
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_TSGFPQ35BRFVW46X A04001
   ROD: EV_TSGFPQ35BRFVW46X.rod
   VCID: 6DD1ECEFBC4BA949B59-8038

   Slave Driver: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 3C0 959 704 E    HW: 3C0 959 794 E
   Component: J389__TSG-HR  007 1501 
   Serial number: 00000006219061      
   Coding: 000290

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist        Labels: 1Kx-909-14x-44.clb
   Part No: 1K0 909 144 N
   Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl. 142    3301  
   Revision: 00H22000    
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   VCID: 3561048F5C9B21898D9-8060

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass. (J387)       Labels: 3C0-959-70X-GEN4.clb
   Part No SW: 3C8 959 702     HW: 3C0 959 792 C
   Component: TUER-SG BT    002 0508  
   Revision: 14110009    Serial number: 0003506882
   Coding: 0012B0
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_TSGBPQ35BRFVW46X A04001
   ROD: EV_TSGBPQ35BRFVW46X.rod
   VCID: 6ED3EBE3B14D52518C3-803B

   Slave Passenger: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 3C0 959 703 E    HW: 3C0 959 795 E
   Component: J388__TSG-HL  007 1501 
   Serial number: 00000006236000      
   Coding: 000290

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 55: Headlight Range        Labels: 5M0-907-357-V2.lbl
   Part No SW: 5M0 907 357 C    HW: 5M0 907 357 C
   Component: AFS-Steuergeraet    0148  
   Revision: 00H04000    Serial number:               
   Coding: 2557189
   Shop #: WSC 06402 785 00200
   VCID: 3467398B57E13881BA7-8061

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 7L6 941 329 C
   Component: AFS-Lst.-Modul l    0004  
   Coding: 00000039

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 7L6 941 329 C
   Component: AFS-Lst.-Modul r    0004  
   Coding: 00000039

No fault code found.

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 02:41)--------------------------

This is the first clear scan I've ever had without needing to clear any stored fault codes myself first.

Unfortunately I realised after I'd driven away from the dealer that I'd forgotten to ask for the GFF printouts I'd requested the tech to do. So I don't know what procedures the tech actually carried out which would have been useful to see.

Is the dealer lying to me?

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