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Thread: How to emergency Regen while sitting

  1. #101
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Yay!............. actually since this thread started......... I was emailed 6 times with stories of gratitude.....2 of them shops because they got paid to do it WELL!

    So the argument is now that 82 + documented.

    This also shows me that this forum is taking off beyond the stars and is being queried by even non VCDS users soon to be verified users!

    Bye bye Whoretex

    Note:
    The cleaner which works the best so far to date on the cheap......... is heavy duty grille and oven/fryer cleaner at Sam's Club.

    http://www.samsclub.com/sams/oven-fr...prod9260461.ip

    Most importantly read this! MSDS!

    http://www.samsclub.com/sams/images/...ner-safety.pdf


    Pure substance/mixture
    :
    Mixture
    Chemical Name
    CAS-No.
    Concentration (%)
    sodium hydroxide
    1310-73-2
    5 - 10
    2-(2-butoxyethoxy)ethanol
    112-34-5
    1 - 5
    sodium isononanoate
    84501-72-4
    1 - 5
    SECTION 4. FIRST AID MEASURES
    In case of eye contact
    :
    Rinse immediately with plenty of water, also under the eyelids, for at least 15 minutes. Remove contact lenses, if present and easy to do. Continue rinsing. Get medical attention immediately.
    In case of skin contact
    :
    Wash off immediately with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. Use a mild soap if available. Wash clothing before reuse. Thoroughly clean shoes before reuse. Get medical attention immediately.
    If swallowed
    :
    Rinse mouth with water. Do NOT induce vomiting. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. Get medical attention immediately.
    If inhaled
    :
    Remove to fresh air. Treat symptomatically. Get medical attention if symptoms occur.
    Protection of first-aiders
    :
    If potential for exposure exists refer to Section 8 for specific personal protective equipment.
    Notes to physician
    :
    Treat symptomatically.
    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 03-10-2015 at 10:11 AM.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by roth View Post
    I was reading this whole thread for a while and have a few points to make. Seems to me that there is a lot of folklore in the subject. Don't want to step on any toes but there are some things I'd like to point out.

    Read slowly!

    DPFs are designed to filter out DPs (soot) from the diesel exhaust. They are designed as NOT "see trough" filters like catalytic converters are BUT have the small channels closed off so the exhaust gas (small molecules) CAN pass trough but DPs (big particles) cannot.


    Now how big are we talking about. Well, the modern DPF will filter out particles of 1 micron (1 millionth of a meter) and bigger with about 95% and higher efficiency! To compare, dust mite is about 300 microns, human hair is 20-180 microns, red blood cell 6-10 microns. You get the idea, what we are talking about here???


    So, any idea of cleaning it by flushing it, especially in the direction of the exhaust, no, I'm not buying it . Yes it is possible to clean the DPF by blasting the DPs by highly compressed air in the direction opposite to the direction of exhaust, baking the DPF in high temperature (around 800 C) overnight and finally, again blasting the remaining ash with highly compressed air and that is how this is really done professionally. Additionally, on 2.0T diesel the DPF is combined with oxidation catalyst. So, to clean it properly you would have to cut the DPF part out first.


    Now, on the so called DPF regeneration.

    As you drive and the DPF is filtering the soot out of the exhaust, the design of the exhaust (catalyst and DPF close to exhaust manifold) is doing the regeneration by itself, without any input from ECM. Simply put the CAT and DPF get hot enough (around 600 C) for long enough for this process to take place. This is called passive regeneration.

    If the the above scenario does not happen, the ECM is taking active role and starting so called active regeneration. In which it will try to increase the temperature of the DPF by injecting extra fuel, delaying injection, adding extra air and so on. This usually takes care of the problem, provided that the car is driven long enough.

    If this is not the case and the soot level continues to increase, the ECM will turn the DPF warning lamp ON after the soot level crosses the threshold value (about 24 grams). This is to let the driver know to preform so called regeneration drive on which the driver can read in his / her OWNERS MANUAL.

    If the driver fails to do so and the soot level continues to increase, the glow plug and check engine indicator will light up as well, as soon as the soot level reaches 40 grams. This is to let the driver know that the active regeneration is turned off and only service regeneration is now possible. This is done by following a special procedure with VCDS or other capable tool.

    If the driver fails to do so and the soot level reaches 45 grams the regeneration is turned off and DPF needs to be replaced with new or reconditioned one.

    Additionally, as a safety measure, the ECM will also start an active regeneration automatically if during the last 466 to 621 miles (750 to 1000 km) of travel no successful regeneration has taken place, regardless of soot level.

    ECM uses bunch of sensors (temperature, pressure, air flow, O2 content) and internal map to determine the soot level. Therefore, you have soot level calculated and measured in MVBs. This information is used (along with the sensor data) to start, conduct and finish active regeneration.

    All this information can be red and, with a informed use of label file, evaluated in relevant MVBs with VCDS. So, you know what is really going on with your DPF system.

    So, now, after you red this, what do you think is going on with your car?

    Can you start proper diagnose 1st, maybe, by posting the relevant values from the relevant MVBs (DPF related)?

    Maybe, then we can learn something together and your car gets fixed in the process.

    BR, Andy
    I want to follow up on understanding how this is working. the graphic shows captured soot down to 0.1 micron ( 10**-7m).

    compare this with reverse osmosis filters, which filter down to 0.0001 micron ( 10**-10m)

    water by itself (pure molecule) is 2.75 Angstrom, (2.75 x 10**-10m)

    so there is plenty of room in the DPF to pass a solution of water and dissolved stuff.

    We know that the regeneration process converts the soot into component parts which can pass through the filter. the ash does not in normal operation.

    In normal operation, there is certainly water vapor and some liquid water present, which pass through the DPF. the properties of the soot and ash do not let it bind with the water present.

    using chemical agents with water or other solvents to break up and dissolve or suspend particles is a different story.

    in a liquid suspension, it may be that plenty of the ash is dissolved so that it can pass as part of the liquid suspension. Back flush would probably get more.



    There are only two things I would worry about some. first is being careful so that the oven cleaner does not harm the coatings on the DPF, cats, or sensors. (limiting exposure time and thorough rinse are probably a good practice)

    second thing would be to make sure to avoid physical damage to the DPF itself. keep in mind the VW TSB on cracked DPFs causing blockage of EGR filter, soot past the DPF, and the need to replace the DPF and EGR.

    OK a third thing is how to be careful and proper disposal of the gunk collected.


    http://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/image...ning%20Kit.pdf describes another version of this process.
    Last edited by mikeme; 03-10-2015 at 04:42 PM.

  4. #103
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    I want to follow up on understanding how this is working. the graphic shows captured soot down to 0.1 micron ( 10**-7m).

    compare this with reverse osmosis filters, which filter down to 0.0001 micron ( 10**-10m)

    water by itself (pure molecule) is 2.75 Angstrom, (2.75 x 10**-10m)

    so there is plenty of room in the DPF to pass a solution of water and dissolved stuff.

    We know that the regeneration process converts the soot into component parts which can pass through the filter. the ash does not in normal operation.

    In normal operation, there is certainly water vapor and some liquid water present, which pass through the DPF. the properties of the soot and ash do not let it bind with the water present.

    using chemical agents with water or other solvents to break up and dissolve or suspend particles is a different story.

    in a liquid suspension, it may be that plenty of the ash is dissolved so that it can pass as part of the liquid suspension. Back flush would probably get more.



    There are only two things I would worry about some. first is being careful so that the oven cleaner does not harm the coatings on the DPF, cats, or sensors. (limiting exposure time and thorough rinse are probably a good practice)

    second thing would be to make sure to avoid physical damage to the DPF itself. keep in mind the VW TSB on cracked DPFs causing blockage of EGR filter, soot past the DPF, and the need to replace the DPF and EGR.

    OK a third thing is how to be careful and proper disposal of the gunk collected.


    http://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/image...ning%20Kit.pdf describes another version of this process.


    You should know what something is before you use it........Post an MSDS sheet!

    I have also experimented with citric acid in a product called SAFER stuff from Finger Lakes by Castel.

    It is an environmentally friendly emulsifying floor soap.
    I spray this directly into a dirty intake mixed with distilled water..........while car is running gas and diesel.
    I get great results for decarburization......


    http://www.castlepackspower.com/inde...es+Safer+Stuff

    MSDS
    http://www.castlepackspower.com/Imag..._Stuff_RTU.pdf

    Key Ingredient = Sodium Hydroxide for success!
    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 03-10-2015 at 04:58 PM.

  5. #104
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    Its possible to force a DPF regeneration I did that once by an Passat b6 and an AUDI A6
    Passat was 30% and A6 was 55% for the A6 was 3 attemps needed to got from 55% to less then 10%
    If the DPF is 69g then replacement is needed.
    And a forced DPF regeneration takes about 20-40min.

    Before you start, the engine must be warming up and water temp min 50
    As many power guzzlers ON (light, heated seats, front and rear window heating, Climatronic, etc
    Can be done in address 01 ECU engine

    Info from site: gerritspeeks
    o [Select]
    o [01 - Engine]
    o [Coding-II - 11]
    o make regeneration possible by entering 21295
    o [Do It!]
    o [Meas. Blocks - 08]
    o select simultaneously and group 070 and group 075.
    o [Go!]

    o measuring value block 070.1: regeneration status (xxxxxxx1 = normal regeneration active xxxxxx1x = forced regeneration active)
    o measuring value block 070.3: Regeneration counter
    o measured value block 075.1: exhaust gas temperature upstream of the turbo-
    o measuring value block 075.2: exhaust gas temperature before particulate filter
    o measuring value block 075.3: particle filter load
    o measuring value block 075.4: exhaust gas temperature after the particulate filter

    • Start to drive and continue holding the measuring blocks into the holes (2nd person is highly recommended)
    o car speed between 30-60 km / h
    o speed between 1500-2500 rpm (4th or 5th gear, automatic transmission in Tiptronic)
    o exhaust gas temperature before the turbocharger (MvB 075.1) above 700 C
    o regeneration takes about 15-20-40 minutes; Stay as long ride until the particle filter load (MvB 075.3) is as low as possible (close to 0%); please note: the outlet can be very hot. If regeneration fails then there are problems or conditions while driving, or with the hardware of the car.

    • [Done, Go Back]
    • [Close Controller, Go Back - 06]

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  7. #105
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    Measuring block values, and limits for soot load vary with engine and specific application ( car and location)

    Glad this came back up,

    was thinking and doing a little more research.

    lessons from this thread (and follow-on thoughts and research) for consideration (my opinion, of course):

    do not ignore error lights. sensor malfunctions which the ECU lets you know about through these lights can prevent DPF regeneration and lead to too accumulation of too much soot. (which then by itself will prevent DPF regeneration initiation by the ECU)

    if error lights from sensor or other failure are then repaired, the excess soot has to be dealt with.

    Resetting DPF values (as if you replaced the DPF) can allow a regeneration, bypassing previous calculated soot levels, resetting ash values. (if measured soot level is still over the limit, regen will not happen.) (if calculated soot load was just a little bit over the limit, a regen after reset might be ok, if you are lucky and avoid the damage VW engineers are concerned with from regen with too much soot.)

    cleaning the soot and ash from an otherwise working DPF can be done by vendors with appropriate equipment. If the DPF is cracked, it will need to be replaced, with the EGR filter.

    chemical cleaning of soot and perhaps ash can also be used to reduce risk of damage from regen with excess soot.

    chemical cleaning has its own hazards, from caustic agents, disposal challenges, and risk to internal coatings and catalysts from the caustic agents (sodium hydroxide solutions are used to dissolve and process aluminum oxides, which coat the DPF.)

    Replacement DPFs are available, but expensive. doubly so for the North American 2009 model TDI, which includes two cats with the DPF in a single part.

    DPF warning lamp can stay lit by the ECU for a while even after restoral of normal DPF regeneration cycles. If all is well, it will clear itself after a couple cycles.

    Exhaust flap failure will prevent proper EGR regulation and regeneration of NOX cat, and will turn on engine MIL, but will not stop DPF regeneration.

  8. #106
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    If you are okay/comfortable with the fact that such a chemical is used for cleaning with the utilities you cook/eat.
    Than I say go for it...........do it yourself and save the huge coins........

    People can be conscientious if they want to be.

    The concentration levels of ( Sodium Hydroxide ) in oven cleaner and the levels used in the process of removing such levels of aluminum oxides are considerably different when in comparison to a foundry, the temp, PSI etc.

    Further.... such a processes you reference requires the aid of electrolysis.

    The last I checked........ we are not hooking up the tit clamps to a DC battery and preforming shock pleasure therapy on the DPF/ourselves during the process for this procedure.

    It's how it is used and finding the acceptable values.

    Considering I have not been unsuccessful with one cleaning........ I'd say it's right on.
    I have not been unsuccessful doing it in the car yet either..........Huge labor advantage!


    Note:
    I have found that using a citrus acid type cleaner also remediates and shows just as good results for removing the soot and ash.

    There is no reason that the DPF should cost what it fetches in the first place...... nor CATS.

    What should happen is manufactures should make the parts like this more affordable and stop raping people.

    The items actually cost .15 % of what they retail it for!

    For what AFT cleaning services cost........+ freight......... might as well buy a replacement AFT new DPF.
    In EU........ they already tooled up and a quick search in Google or eBay over there nets such results.

    If not the result is the demand for removing such devices driven by the BLACK market it now creates.

    Keep in mind OP or readers I am not pointing to buy anything........ but the things needed to clean this mess up in the local hardware store or grocery cleaning isle...........
    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 03-31-2015 at 11:02 AM.
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

  9. #107
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    http://www.sellyourcatsdirect.com/dpf-systems/#tdi

    will pay $85 for the opportunity to scrap and recycle a VW TDI DPF. (and I assume they are doing so anticipating greater return from reclaimed substance, such as platinum, and other metals and ceramic contents)

    if the base cost for original materials was $100, your .15% ratio would have a retail price of $60,000 (so your fraction may be a bit off)

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  11. #108
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Apparently you have never shipped or bought containers of CATS or DPFS.....
    Are you aware of the subsidies that lower the price new from foreign trading partners and rebates that are to be had?

    I am more interested with your Electrolysis experiences with Sodium Hydroxide you compared.

    Why scrap a unit that can be cleaned?

    And the going rate for large foreign VW scrap is above 150 USD so your link stinks.........
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
    Certified Master Trained NY/BAR/BAD 7076062/ASE/SAE/NASTF Legal Factory Authorized/Licensed GeKo/FaZit # 403738
    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

  12. #109
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    Jack, I was just poking a little fun at your 0.15% cost figure. Used an available low end scrap value to illustrate your exaggeration.

    http://fsxrecycling.com/

    has info on DPF cleaning services, cleaning equipment, and recycling services.

    It does not look like they use solvents, as you discuss.

    I take you at your word that you have helped all these customers of yours, but cannot help but suspect that use of caustic or acidic agents for this purpose has a risk of damage to the components, to other automotive surfaces, and presents safe disposal challenges. I say this not to say anything bad about you or your advice, but to inform the casual reader of my thoughts. (of course, you probably pay close attention to these things so as not to damage your customers' cars or turn your shop into a toxic waste site)

    It may be that some of the valuable metals may be removed in the process of chemical cleaning. If so, a minor amount would not likely keep the system from working, but could be recovered for reuse or for proper disposal.

    I don't suppose you have saved the DPF cleaning residue, or had it tested for structural or precious metal content, have you? Doing so might be reassuring that the cleaning process is not harming the emissions equipment, and may be easier than trying to instrument the repaired car for actual emissions of NOX, Particulate and sulfur dioxide. (DPF ash probably has some metal residue from engine wear, but the concern would be displacing coatings or parts of the oxidation cat or DPF)

    Now don't get me wrong, I think even cleaning which ends up restoring operation but reducing effectiveness of the system is more responsible than removing emissions equipment.


    The best course, however, I think you might agree, is to keep sensors operating to prevent accumulation of excess soot in the first place.

    For further discussion or consideration, a TDI mechanic active on another site freely states he has never seen a customer who needed cleaning of DPF soot except by regeneration on the car, nor one which needed action due to accumulated ash in the DPF.

  13. #110
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed this thread because I think time will tell on how many it helps.

    I agree with part of what you are saying and I know you were poking fun......that doesn't bother me.
    You will note I have not tried to sell or point to link for such things as scrap values or indorsed particulate cleaning vendors.
    I also didn't make reference to a process as a case to be concerned, with lacking the description of what a foundry uses that process for either.
    Apples to oranges wouldn't you agree?

    As for my waste removal.
    I have all my remediated hazardous waste material disposed of with by a proper authority and hold a manifest.
    Most shops don't do this and I do.
    I would also like to state that I don't actively engage in soliciting or selling such a service as routine or even volume oil changes.
    My place is clean.........was even inspected by the EPA. Comment was......
    ( " This is one of the cleanest shops in and out I have been to and its cold in here " 98 degree day )

    Now I am glad you brought this up about if any of the rare metals were in the remediated material.
    Answer is YES!
    I did have it tested by a friend that works in the industry and two others.
    Amounts removed were nil and none amounted to a concern for the device to not lite off or hit vehicle requirements.

    I had it done to see what was ash verse soot when wanting to know more about sumps for oil qualities being blown by.
    This is another thing I have been personally interested in investigating for many years, to see what does..... what!
    No in advance........ I will not be supplying any of these figures either because it is work in progress.

    I will say this.....We ran the gas machine to compare two new cars that ran with no check engine currently running within specs.
    The unit which was just cleaned showed better #s and in 5 thousand miles we compared again...... before the oil change.
    They were pretty close and still the one that was cleaned was slightly better.


    You are also correct that most units can be regen and or forced to regen.......I believe this myself.
    If cars are driven correct and oil is changed at correct time and proper height sump levels....things seems fine.
    I have seen some ring issues.......
    The situations I were brought or advised of......... were most often a pissed off customer who had a DPF and exhaust in trunk already removed.
    They yanked their car from the dealer after being given a 5-7K estimate to replace it saying it was plugged and mandatory.

    2 cars I recall were transported from as far as CA to me.
    So two people paid a transporter for just about 1K just to get me the car.
    Both cars were cleaned and reassembled for under 1500. One of which is a active court case............
    Both of them needed faulty PSI sensors. The same one! and both needed their firmware updated.
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

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