2005 mk4 jetta tdi 5-spd 09A Transmission issue

Locoelectrician said:

Well versed in taking realtime recordings on locos, and when I did it, just used common sense and assumed that's what I was doing. It saved somewhere but when he tried to open it, what he saw is what he posted in post 1. If the answer is hidden somewhere in that log or somewhere else on that laptop, let us know and we will get it to you post haste.

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The button labeling can be confusing. If you got just a snapshot like you show in post 1, as you say, then you pressed the 'Add to Log' button in the bottom center. That just stores an instantaneous snapshot of what you're seeing. Instead, use the 'Log' button in the bottom right, and hit Start before you start your test drive. That makes VCDS continuously store samples, several times a second. There will also be a 'Marker' button you can hit at the moment you experience the problem. That makes it easier to find the right time in the logs later. You have a separate driver and VCDS operator, right?

Jason

Used the log button, pressed start before it failed and stop after. After that it got confusing but I saved it and he most likely didn't post what he should have. That was not the screen we were on though. We were in advanced measuring I believe and had options on the right we could tick and they would show up in real time on the left. One of the ones we had up was what Dana just talked about where it shows 1110010 or whatever for the solenoid conditions.

Locoelectrician said:

Used the log button, pressed start before it failed and stop after. After that it got confusing but I saved it and he most likely didn't post what he should have. That was not the screen we were on though. We were in advanced measuring I believe and had options on the right we could tick and they would show up in real time on the left.

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Advanced measuring is fine. The result should be a file sitting in C:\Ross-Tech\VCDS\Logs, in text / CSV format.

Did you try to change the name? If so, if you happened to take off the "Logs\" prefix that's there by default, it might be sitting in C:\Ross-Tech\VCDS instead.

Jason

busy day, anyway

My thoughts on this:

You have 09A with 150K on it, add 25% if driven is super hot climate. Additionally, someone tried to fix this thing b4 (clean fluid + split case) or maybe it was rebuilt (hard to guess without looking). In any case, the best way to go about it is to get a reman unit with long warranty. I guess this is out of the question due to cost.

So, you want to try to fix it.

The main thing for you is to determine if the problem is with Valve Body or the actual transmission. If this is transmission then you will be wasting your time and money replacing the valve body / solenoids. Luckily, CLEAN, NOT BURNED / CONTAMINATED ATF is a sign of transmission that is not slipping. Also you do not have ATF temperature code which usually shows up in transmissions with slipping clutches because the temperature skyrockets when they do slip. Of course to be on a safe side you would need to drive this thing with a pressure gauge connected to the pressure test ports but that is a lot of work and I usually never did that as when the customer decides to rebuild the trans you can test them with air pressure when the valve body is off.

So, lets assume it is the valve body.

Like I told you before, it is very important to know which gear is giving you the problem. You count 1, 2, 3, etc, when the car starts moving BUT be aware that many transmissions start from 2nd gear. So, in your case that would be the 5th gear that is slipping. I told you to drive with VCDS to see witch gear is it. By the book the current gear will show in MVB 01 Field 04 and MVB 03 Field 03. VCDS calls them Driving Mode (?. for some reason. I do not have anything with 09A but I have 09G picture scan and it has the Current Gear in the same positions. It shows 0 in park which, I think is incorrect. So, it looks like you were right. Maybe the Ross-Tech ppl should look into that.

You can also go by solenoid state (I'm not sure on this):

004,4,Condition of,Solenoid Valves
; 1xxxxxxx - Solenoid Valve 4 (N91)
; x1xxxxxx - Solenoid Shift Lock
; xx1xxxxx - Solenoid Valve 9 (N282)
; xxx1xxxx - Solenoid Valve 8 (N281)
; xxxx1xxx - Solenoid Valve 3 (N90)
; xxxxx1xx - Solenoid Valve 5 (N92)
; xxxxxx1x - Solenoid Valve 2 (N89)
; xxxxxxx1 - Solenoid Valve 1 (N88)

So, we are only interested in the state tf the last 3 N92, N89, N88 and based on the table gear 3 should be 0 1 0 and gear 4 should be 1 0 0.

You can also, put the car in Tiptronic gate (that's the one with + / -) sign and shift manually (current gear will show on the cluster). You can go 1, 2, 3 hold it there for a while, build up the speed and shift to 4, if it slips immediately shift to 5 to see if this one is OK, if it does not then you were incorrect and it is the 5th gear slipping.

If you want to check solenoid resistance it is 9-24 ohm (on the TCM plug) for N88 / N89 / N92 (these are the only one responsible for gear changes). This does not prove the solenoid is good 100% but if you get 100 Kohm, you know you got a bad one. I think it is easier to check it on the plug. Look 4 it in manual.

Let me know what you find.

BR, Andy

jyoung8607 said:

Advanced measuring is fine. The result should be a file sitting in C:\Ross-Tech\VCDS\Logs, in text / CSV format.

Did you try to change the name? If so, if you happened to take off the "Logs\" prefix that's there by default, it might be sitting in C:\Ross-Tech\VCDS instead.

Jason

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There was one other log file that for some reason would not open and I tried to view it in a .txt format but it didn't seem to do very much. Here is the link to the log that was the "odd" one.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r65xlbb1c0pqz7u/LOG-02-02E-038-048-058-072-081.CSV?dl=0 not sure if this is even the right thing or not but it is the last log file of the three that were made last night. Also I apologize if im not posting alot in this thread, I don't know alot about cars that much so im staying in the background and learning alot. I thank you all for your input on this and your help that you are willing to give.

It's 4th for sure, unless its a 6 speed. From a dead stop it happens from 3rd to 4th. once it settles it shifts to 5th. I'm pretty sure I had driving mode ticked in the log I took and will have my son dig up the file(s) and post them if needed. Have tried to duplicate the problem in manual mode, but as stated, last night was the first time in 6 months it would do it more than once and I was too busy trying to decipher data from vcds to try manual at the time. "if" we could get it to fail in manual, i don't understand what you are saying. You say shift up to 3 and hold it, build up the speed and shift to 4, if it slips immediately shift to 5 to see if this one is OK, if it does not then you were incorrect and it is the 5th gear slipping. How is 5th gear slipping if I shifted to 5 and it held? Anyways, thats not whats happening so it's irrelevant unless we can make it fail in manual.

Also it DID have a transmission temperature implausible code stored in it at one time. Cleared it last night and it did not return. Assumed the code meant faulty sensor reading by the way it was worded.

obamachicken said:

There was one other log file that for some reason would not open and I tried to view it in a .txt format but it didn't seem to do very much. Here is the link to the log that was the "odd" one.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r65xlbb1c0pqz7u/LOG-02-02E-038-048-058-072-081.CSV?dl=0 not sure if this is even the right thing or not but it is the last log file of the three that were made last night. Also I apologize if im not posting alot in this thread, I don't know alot about cars that much so im staying in the background and learning alot. I thank you all for your input on this and your help that you are willing to give.

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Hrm, that's the right sort of file in the right format, it has headers, but no samples. Strange. Is it possible you double-clicked Start or something? The Start button becomes the Stop button, I think, when logging is running.

Jason

Locoelectrician said:

Also it DID have a transmission temperature implausible code stored in it at one time. Cleared it last night and it did not return. Assumed the code meant faulty sensor reading by the way it was worded.

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Always save that stuff. It's okay to clear it and do more diagnostics, but save it to a log first. Posting it here gives us more context for what's going on.

Jason

jyoung8607 said:

Always save that stuff. It's okay to clear it and do more diagnostics, but save it to a log first. Posting it here gives us more context for what's going on.

Jason

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Here is the transmission part of my first autoscan that was done on my car. This was done in January as listed in the scan


Not sure if you wanted this or not.

I clicked start before he started driving and stop a few seconds after it failed. When it was done there seemed to be too many "are you sure you want to close this" options but like I said, a lot was going on at the time.

Locoelectrician said:

i don't understand what you are saying. You say shift up to 3 and hold it, build up the speed and shift to 4, if it slips immediately shift to 5 to see if this one is OK, if it does not then you were incorrect and it is the 5th gear slipping. How is 5th gear slipping if I shifted to 5 and it held? Anyways, thats not whats happening so it's irrelevant unless we can make it fail in manual.

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That is exactly what I mean sir and it is relevant, you skip over 4th to see if you have 5th, which you do. Which we find out you do in 46th post . That transmission temperature implausible code is important too. It means clutch is slipping and heating transmission fluid. The only thing that is interesting is why don't you have 4th gear incorrect ratio code.

In any case, I think you have a problem with K3 clutch. Than again the same clutch is used in gear 3 and 5. So, logic would no. However the combination of pressures in gear 3 and 5 might prevent the pressure from leaking from K3 clutch. This might happen in the valve body or directly in the clutch itself. Easy way to test is to hook up pressure gauge to K3 test port. The key thing, I think, is the presence of gear 5 as the only that changes electrically is energizing N88 solenoid as N92 stays energized in 4th and 5th. As this happens, the K4 clutch engages and you have gear 5. So your problem would be possibly K3 area, then valve body, then solenoids.

Regards, Andy

Thats not what I was saying in the 46th post. My son seems to think it goes back to 3rd but it seemed to me like 4th was delayed (he drives the car daily, not me so maybe he will chime in and explain better). If he let off the throttle and the rpm came back down, it seemed to go to 4th... AND THEN shift normally to 5th so 4th wasn't "skipped". A lot was going on and it was my first time witnessing the issue so we will take the car out again and "IF" it acts up again, I'll be watching closer and perhaps I'll drive while he mans the laptop. So are you also saying that transmission temp implausible could simply mean the temp went higher than the system expected, or can read, rather than a failed sensor? If thats what you mean, it makes sense to me. If the max temp the sensor is ever meant to see is "X" and it goes beyond "X" it would show a fault. Knowing what "X" is could prove helpful.

After reviewing the video some more and judging my past experiences with this tranny issue. I can safely say that the car does shift into 4th gear after the RPM's flare up. As you can see in this video that I posted on page 1 you can see that when it is at the peak of the 3rd gear before it shifts into 4th that the RPM's spike and when they drop down the car shifts into a lower gear and the RPM's stay at around 1,700 rpm. keep in mind that while it is doing this I am traveling between 40-45 mph before it shifts from 3rd and causes this whole issue. If the car was to shift back into third after the RPM's spiked up then it would go straight to 2,500 RPM but instead it stays below 2,000rmp which means that it is in 4th (or maybe even 5th) later today me and my father are going to do some more testing and we are going to replicate this situation again with hopefully logs to show it. We will be doing this around 6 or so and we will do little tests before hand to make sure we know how to properly log and record the info from vcds.

He is saying that temp increased because of a worn clutch or stuck open/closed noid that caused the slip.
Slipping creates surplus friction......hence more heat.

A note:

When temps are seen higher by the trans ECU.......It will attempt to shift a lower gear to handle the load and bring temps down. ( Towing/hill climb map )
If the temp sensor is sporadic.......say jumping up for a millisecond and then back down......you can get a confusion shift...... where it tries to shift down but then sees it should shift up causing havoc.

This was a very popular issue I documented many years ago in the 096/01M.

All with no DTC's!

I have seen it in the 09A and 09Garbage boxes toooooooooo.

Oh and most importantly......VCDS logs are what spotted it!

Ok, so we are planning to drive it tonight and try/test anything within our abilities. Any special requests of things we should do? What and where in VCDS we should watch? Help us help you help us.

Would also love to read that documentation as what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. Especially if we are seeing temp errors yet the fluid looks good.

Please log TEMP!

With the respective noids in question and RPM to cross.

Those were all logged in the log we already captured, but apparently we did something wrong. We will take a few "practice" logs first tonight.

Is "Condition of solenoids" sufficient? IE, the 11101000 ?

You may want to reference the repair manual/SSP or paid support at RT for that information.