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As we got into some discussion of faith, prayer and such related to the current political climate, I thought it appropriate to give a place for such discussions. I ask only that all comments made here be done with the utmost care. What people believe, they have the right to believe. Let us not put people down because we disagree with their position. Let us openly discuss differences, freely exchanging ideas without judgemental words that can and will offend.
Don replied to comments I made to Jack in this thread: https://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?19181-2020-US-Presidential-Election
Don, I am suprised that for a second time in these forum messages you have spoke of the "simplisity of (my) belief and (my) trust". Could you explain precisely what you mean by "the simplicity"? You see, I do not believe my belief to be simplistic. As a man of training in applied science I found myself at odds with what I was taught as a boy. So, I have read and studied philosophy, science, math and others in my search for what I should believe. I assure you that I have come to a non-simplistic conclusion that for me, God is real, He exists, and He is one in whom I can put my trust. Please accept that it is not a simplistic belief but rather an informed belief, founded through study that continues to this very day.
I do trust that the God I believe in hears his people's requests and that He measures their requests and considers them. So I trust that prayer has influence on his action and my reading and understanding of the writings in the good book support my belief.
I thought I wrote that ALL leaders need wisdom and should receive some for they certainly are not demonstrating as a group that they possess any. All elected officials and all who serve the people should posses wisdom for they must find a way to communicate with each other during times of great unrest. When passions are high, communication is extremely difficult. It is the wise leader who can find the means to speak to and work with all to bring positive results. (Of course, if we wish to be contrarian, we can argue "whose" positive results - true? On most any point we can find a reason to argue - but it is my hope that we are seeking common ground. That through this discussion we might know and understand each other better.)
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On Wisdom:
Shall we argue what wisdom is? Or better, whose "wisdom" shall we choose? Well I have stated my side: God's wisdom is what I would like to see our leaders posses. Reason? Man's wisdom has failed us time and time again. God's wisdom - treating all as if they are a member of our very own family - that is something man has (we have) failed to do - no matter what faith or non-faith we hold. We have not treated all as if they were our sister or brother. No, we have promoted the differences between us and we do not, as societies, love others. We have work to do to reach a level where we hold all to be equal.
Imperfect man is driven by greed and power to serve himself. Can we believe that those choosing public office as their career (another subject for another day) desire to use their office for the good of the people? Can we believe that man on his own will do good? In the 10,000 years of man's recorded history, where is the good man has done? Wars, brutality, hate, fighting, theft, and on and on have been the mark of man in every civilization continuous thru time. How then can we feel man has evolved to the point where man can figure a way (the way) forward? Seems to me, man just keeps going - doing what man does, surviving the day with some doing far better at the expense of many others, repeating this, generation upon generation. (Why do we have poor? Why are some denied the right to the medicine and care they need? Why are not all held equal?)
No doubt, man has evolved. Man has more knowledge then he ever had before. Man has more wealth. He has conquered many diseases. He is improving the environment in some ways. Given the evolution of man, why has man failed to solve the problem of proper discourse without all the prejudice, innuendo, and frankly mean spirited dialog? Why is it that man cannot communicate without rancor? If we are so evolved and smart, why do communication problems remain? Why do prejudices remain?
Is the Wisdom of man adequate or should we all be seeking something beyond man to help us do and become better?
How could any of us understand from God's perspective? By the very definition, God is greater. How could any lesser comprehend and understand completely the greater? Can we understand the universe and all that is there? We cannot fully grasp and understand the vastness of the universe any more than grasp and fully understand the vastness of God and His ways. We simply do not have the capacity at this time to do so.
What we can do and what we actually do is measure what we can see and understand. Through what we understand, we can begin to process how things may be. It is no different with God. We look at how God has behaved. We learn the reasons behind the behavior and we plan based upon what is known.
In the Bible there are several stories where God did change his plan and actions based on the prayer of a believer. Perhaps you would be willing to consider what this article says: https://www.faithgateway.com/keep-praying-god-changes-mind/#.XvstmucpB3g
The article does not suggest that God's "prime directive" will be changed. In fact, the article states it very clearly that the very nature of God is unchangeable. Still, decisions made and actions planned were changed and since they were in the past, why would that not be true in the present?
(Well, the Bible as a reference is only good if one believes the examples cited are true. When one rejects those as being true, then my counter-argument is meaningless, right?)
Certainly, when we make guesses as to what may be the reason behind things, we are exercising faith. Science requires us to have faith that the pursuit of truth through science is an answer. Likewise, belief in God requires faith that the promises made in the scriptures are real and will come to pass. Prayer serves the purpose of honoring the deity - of giving praise to the One in Christianity - Judaism - and by Muslims to Allah. But it also demonstrates the faith one has in the beliefs held. Given that prayer changed outcomes, faithful prayer can indeed change God's actions.
The problem of your analogy is the presumption that God is controlling and makes each of us do as he pleases. Consider this: if your parents made you do all things their way, how would you have developed into the "you" you are? Would you have loved and honored them or would you have resented their control? I contend that God is no different than our parents in this regard. He wishes for his children, as we are called in the Bible, to be that which He intends, just as loving parents do. He does not force His intention upon us. He does not control the choices we will make. He simply knows which I going to make before I make them and if any control is applied, it is that He sends people into our lives to help us consider our choices.
Your question is a vexing question: Is God not all knowing and all powerful? Is He not able to make things the way He wants them?
God gave man free will. What is that? God accepts that some will reject Him and His ways and that is ok by Him. It is not what He wants but He does not control all things of man and in this world as some may suggest. No, He put man on this earth to be His agents and He gave them a brain with which to decide - "Will I do things God's way, or will I do things my way."
Free Will. God knows who will choose Him and He knows who will reject Him. It is His desire for all to know Him and believe in Him. He does not force His way on any. However, He does surround each of us with people who He uses to influence our directions and opinions. God's control in human matters comes through other humans. Rarely are there records of God taking action directly himself.
People blame God for natural disasters and all sorts of things. I contend that those that do so do not understand the nature of the God in which I believe. God is not acting on the physical conditions of this world. Man was given the responsibility to maintain and manage that which God had created. Why would a God who loves his creation do things that kill, maim and destroy? I think natural phenomena just happens: volcanoes erupt; big storms brew and blow; disease happens. Some attribute these to the persona of the Devil.. to evil personified. I'm not one to do so... a discussion for another day.
No, I believe God uses people to respond to the problems that exist. He influences opinions and thought through other people. Is it so hard to accept that God's actions might be modified through the prayer of those who are in the situation? Might it be that a God who does consider what His people desire to do in working a problem, is seen greater because He is willing to have a relationship and hear what is being said? Would it not be easier to accept a God who hears and listens? By the way, there is no guarantee that God will respond as I ask in my prayers. He may choose to continue with the plans He has ordained. That is His right as my God! I accept that He is the authority and that His plan has always been to work "all things for His good purpose." (Romans 8:28)
Indeed, there are times recorded in the Old Testament when God did wield his power and forced a conclusion. We cannot walk away from that knowledge. It is ever present that the God I believe in could do such again. It is my hope and prayer that He would not choose that path. But should He decide on a path I do not like as being the only means to a proper and right end, I would willingly accept that conclusion even at the cost of my own life.
-------------
Consider this:
The founders of this nation wrote this:
Did they mean that the pool of goo from which many believe we have evolved, created us? Or are they just simple minded ones who did not understand that man had evolved to a level where deity is not needed for understanding? (do check the backgrounds of the men who were called upon to write the Declaration. Some were simple men, not highly educated, not necessarily of high moral character. Others were the Creme de la Creme... highly educated and very capable people, pillars of society. It was quite the mixed bag.)
They acknowledged their belief that they had been created and when they used the capital letter "C", they acknowledged God as their creator. And what did that Creator do in their mind? "Created all men equal, endowed them with certain unalienable Rights: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." They acknowledged these rights came from the God who created.
With those opening words, the nation of the United States began... It took years to organize this thing we call the United States of America. But it all started by invoking what God had provided and set as the plan for the persons living here - they had rights, they were equals. Oh that the wisdom shown by these men would infect those we have called to serve us today.
I will pray for that Don, each and every day.
Don replied to comments I made to Jack in this thread: https://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?19181-2020-US-Presidential-Election
Bruce: I really do envy you your faith, particularly the simplicity of your beliefs and your trust that prayer will in someway be beneficial in reminding your God to grant wisdom to whoever wins the election. I have exactly the same desire (regardless of the fact that I'm not a US citizen) that whoever leads your country will be wise - but for me, this outcome has nothing to do with prayer and it certainly isn't a matter that an omnipotent deity will control - except, I guess if you believe in the inevitable fate of destiny (i.e. Kismet).
Don, I am suprised that for a second time in these forum messages you have spoke of the "simplisity of (my) belief and (my) trust". Could you explain precisely what you mean by "the simplicity"? You see, I do not believe my belief to be simplistic. As a man of training in applied science I found myself at odds with what I was taught as a boy. So, I have read and studied philosophy, science, math and others in my search for what I should believe. I assure you that I have come to a non-simplistic conclusion that for me, God is real, He exists, and He is one in whom I can put my trust. Please accept that it is not a simplistic belief but rather an informed belief, founded through study that continues to this very day.
I do trust that the God I believe in hears his people's requests and that He measures their requests and considers them. So I trust that prayer has influence on his action and my reading and understanding of the writings in the good book support my belief.
I thought I wrote that ALL leaders need wisdom and should receive some for they certainly are not demonstrating as a group that they possess any. All elected officials and all who serve the people should posses wisdom for they must find a way to communicate with each other during times of great unrest. When passions are high, communication is extremely difficult. It is the wise leader who can find the means to speak to and work with all to bring positive results. (Of course, if we wish to be contrarian, we can argue "whose" positive results - true? On most any point we can find a reason to argue - but it is my hope that we are seeking common ground. That through this discussion we might know and understand each other better.)
-------------
On Wisdom:
Shall we argue what wisdom is? Or better, whose "wisdom" shall we choose? Well I have stated my side: God's wisdom is what I would like to see our leaders posses. Reason? Man's wisdom has failed us time and time again. God's wisdom - treating all as if they are a member of our very own family - that is something man has (we have) failed to do - no matter what faith or non-faith we hold. We have not treated all as if they were our sister or brother. No, we have promoted the differences between us and we do not, as societies, love others. We have work to do to reach a level where we hold all to be equal.
Imperfect man is driven by greed and power to serve himself. Can we believe that those choosing public office as their career (another subject for another day) desire to use their office for the good of the people? Can we believe that man on his own will do good? In the 10,000 years of man's recorded history, where is the good man has done? Wars, brutality, hate, fighting, theft, and on and on have been the mark of man in every civilization continuous thru time. How then can we feel man has evolved to the point where man can figure a way (the way) forward? Seems to me, man just keeps going - doing what man does, surviving the day with some doing far better at the expense of many others, repeating this, generation upon generation. (Why do we have poor? Why are some denied the right to the medicine and care they need? Why are not all held equal?)
No doubt, man has evolved. Man has more knowledge then he ever had before. Man has more wealth. He has conquered many diseases. He is improving the environment in some ways. Given the evolution of man, why has man failed to solve the problem of proper discourse without all the prejudice, innuendo, and frankly mean spirited dialog? Why is it that man cannot communicate without rancor? If we are so evolved and smart, why do communication problems remain? Why do prejudices remain?
Is the Wisdom of man adequate or should we all be seeking something beyond man to help us do and become better?
But then I have never understood the concept of prayer from a God's perspective. I view God's relationship with humans akin to the relationship between humans and ants; even if this all powerful being listened to the pleas of the ants that she created (it's possible I guess) - prayer should not be necessary since God would have the same motivation to grant POTUS wisdom because of the wider needs of the rest of the ants!! The concept of prayer introduces the notion that it's beneficial to honor the deity and that the deity can be pursued in some way to act differently; it kind-of suggests that the deity's prime-directive can be changed, or said another way - it suggests that the ants know better than the deity!! Being a non-beilever can be so complex!!
Anyhow, I don't mean to question your beliefs - they are YOUR beliefs and they make sense to you in the same way that mine make sense to me!!
How could any of us understand from God's perspective? By the very definition, God is greater. How could any lesser comprehend and understand completely the greater? Can we understand the universe and all that is there? We cannot fully grasp and understand the vastness of the universe any more than grasp and fully understand the vastness of God and His ways. We simply do not have the capacity at this time to do so.
What we can do and what we actually do is measure what we can see and understand. Through what we understand, we can begin to process how things may be. It is no different with God. We look at how God has behaved. We learn the reasons behind the behavior and we plan based upon what is known.
In the Bible there are several stories where God did change his plan and actions based on the prayer of a believer. Perhaps you would be willing to consider what this article says: https://www.faithgateway.com/keep-praying-god-changes-mind/#.XvstmucpB3g
The article does not suggest that God's "prime directive" will be changed. In fact, the article states it very clearly that the very nature of God is unchangeable. Still, decisions made and actions planned were changed and since they were in the past, why would that not be true in the present?
(Well, the Bible as a reference is only good if one believes the examples cited are true. When one rejects those as being true, then my counter-argument is meaningless, right?)
Certainly, when we make guesses as to what may be the reason behind things, we are exercising faith. Science requires us to have faith that the pursuit of truth through science is an answer. Likewise, belief in God requires faith that the promises made in the scriptures are real and will come to pass. Prayer serves the purpose of honoring the deity - of giving praise to the One in Christianity - Judaism - and by Muslims to Allah. But it also demonstrates the faith one has in the beliefs held. Given that prayer changed outcomes, faithful prayer can indeed change God's actions.
The problem of your analogy is the presumption that God is controlling and makes each of us do as he pleases. Consider this: if your parents made you do all things their way, how would you have developed into the "you" you are? Would you have loved and honored them or would you have resented their control? I contend that God is no different than our parents in this regard. He wishes for his children, as we are called in the Bible, to be that which He intends, just as loving parents do. He does not force His intention upon us. He does not control the choices we will make. He simply knows which I going to make before I make them and if any control is applied, it is that He sends people into our lives to help us consider our choices.
Your question is a vexing question: Is God not all knowing and all powerful? Is He not able to make things the way He wants them?
God gave man free will. What is that? God accepts that some will reject Him and His ways and that is ok by Him. It is not what He wants but He does not control all things of man and in this world as some may suggest. No, He put man on this earth to be His agents and He gave them a brain with which to decide - "Will I do things God's way, or will I do things my way."
Free Will. God knows who will choose Him and He knows who will reject Him. It is His desire for all to know Him and believe in Him. He does not force His way on any. However, He does surround each of us with people who He uses to influence our directions and opinions. God's control in human matters comes through other humans. Rarely are there records of God taking action directly himself.
People blame God for natural disasters and all sorts of things. I contend that those that do so do not understand the nature of the God in which I believe. God is not acting on the physical conditions of this world. Man was given the responsibility to maintain and manage that which God had created. Why would a God who loves his creation do things that kill, maim and destroy? I think natural phenomena just happens: volcanoes erupt; big storms brew and blow; disease happens. Some attribute these to the persona of the Devil.. to evil personified. I'm not one to do so... a discussion for another day.
No, I believe God uses people to respond to the problems that exist. He influences opinions and thought through other people. Is it so hard to accept that God's actions might be modified through the prayer of those who are in the situation? Might it be that a God who does consider what His people desire to do in working a problem, is seen greater because He is willing to have a relationship and hear what is being said? Would it not be easier to accept a God who hears and listens? By the way, there is no guarantee that God will respond as I ask in my prayers. He may choose to continue with the plans He has ordained. That is His right as my God! I accept that He is the authority and that His plan has always been to work "all things for His good purpose." (Romans 8:28)
Indeed, there are times recorded in the Old Testament when God did wield his power and forced a conclusion. We cannot walk away from that knowledge. It is ever present that the God I believe in could do such again. It is my hope and prayer that He would not choose that path. But should He decide on a path I do not like as being the only means to a proper and right end, I would willingly accept that conclusion even at the cost of my own life.
-------------
Consider this:
The founders of this nation wrote this:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Did they mean that the pool of goo from which many believe we have evolved, created us? Or are they just simple minded ones who did not understand that man had evolved to a level where deity is not needed for understanding? (do check the backgrounds of the men who were called upon to write the Declaration. Some were simple men, not highly educated, not necessarily of high moral character. Others were the Creme de la Creme... highly educated and very capable people, pillars of society. It was quite the mixed bag.)
They acknowledged their belief that they had been created and when they used the capital letter "C", they acknowledged God as their creator. And what did that Creator do in their mind? "Created all men equal, endowed them with certain unalienable Rights: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." They acknowledged these rights came from the God who created.
With those opening words, the nation of the United States began... It took years to organize this thing we call the United States of America. But it all started by invoking what God had provided and set as the plan for the persons living here - they had rights, they were equals. Oh that the wisdom shown by these men would infect those we have called to serve us today.
I will pray for that Don, each and every day.