Hot Relay and where is 'Ground in Main Harness'?

   #1  

Daytona

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Hi Guys,
Uk Audi A3 2.0 FSi Petrol 2004 AXW 8P1 Non Turbo.
Question about relay 449 in what I think is J519 power distribution box, under the steering wheel above the accelerator on UK models.
There is a White Relay(?) marked 449 (below and to the left of another marked 53) which is Hot to the touch. Does anyone have any idea what it's function in life is and why it might be getting hot?
I'm chasing down some issues that surfaced before 'Lock Down' and now we can all go outside again the hunt is on. There are a few electrical codes to deal with mostly intermittent based around the ECU so I'm heading in that direction after all the earths are checked and cleaned. Which brings us to question 2.
The Current Flow Diagram/ helpfully says earth in Main Harness but is that mean one welded earth point or multiple earths that just happen to be at different points in the main harness and end up somewhere else. Any ideas where to start opening up the Harness to find it?

I'm including the last scan for your entertainment as much as anything. The Air Bag fault is because the passenger side is switched off. That's one solved!
Thanks.

Code:
Friday,29,May,2020,13:31:02:45305
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 8.1 x64
VCDS Version: 20.4.0.1 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4508.4
Data version: 20200331 DS317.0
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: WAUZZZ8P64A064818   License Plate: 


Chassis Type: 8P (1K0)
Scan: 01 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 25 42 44 46 47 52 56

VIN: WAUZZZ8P64A064818   Mileage: 178930km-111181miles

00-Steering Angle Sensor -- Status: OK 0000
01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 1010
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: Malfunction 1010
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: Malfunction 0010
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: Malfunction 0010
15-Airbags -- Status: Malfunction 0010
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: Malfunction 0010
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: Malfunction 1010
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
47-Sound System -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: Malfunction 0010
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 06F-906-056-AXW.lbl
   Part No SW: 06F 906 056 BT    HW: Hardware No 
   Component: MED9.5.10       G00 5340  
   Revision: 00000000    Serial number: AUX7Z0C7FNK0B3
   Coding: 0000072
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 7CA1F33D6AE0687B0FA-8028

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 06F 907 807 A
   Component: NOX  0308250111 004 3608
   06F907807A  NOX  0308250111 004 3608   

5 Faults Found:
17439 - Intake Manifold Tuning Valve (N316) 
            P1031 - 001 - Setpoint Not Reached - Intermittent
18104 - Powertrain Data Bus 
            P1696 - 002 - Implausible Message from Steering Column Controller - Intermittent
17924 - Intake Manifold Valve (N156) 
            P1516 - 004 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
17951 - Angle Sensor 1 for Throttle Actuator (G187) 
            P1543 - 002 - Signal too Small
17580 - Angle Sensor 2 for Throttle Actuator (G188) Signal too Low 
            P1172 - 002 - 
Readiness: 1010 0001

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 1K0-907-379-MK60-F.lbl
   Part No: 1K0 907 379 D
   Component: ESP FRONT MK60      0102  
   Coding: 0053894
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 33331801073E67039E0-8066

3 Faults Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00778 - Steering Angle Sensor (G85) 
            003 - Mechanical Failure
01314 - Engine Control Module 
            013 - Check DTC Memory

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC        Labels: 8P0-820-043.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P0 820 043     HW: 8P0 820 043 
   Component: KlimavollautomatH11 0130  
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   VCID: 698FBA691572EDD3E4C-803C

2 Faults Found:
01592 - Air Quality Sensor (G238) 
            010 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00101010
                    Fault Priority: 3
                    Fault Frequency: 8
                    Reset counter: 149
                    Mileage: 178025 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2019.12.19
                    Time: 21:36:40

             Freeze Frame:
                    Temperature: 24.5∞C

01592 - Air Quality Sensor (G238) 
            007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100111
                    Fault Priority: 3
                    Fault Frequency: 8
                    Reset counter: 149
                    Mileage: 178025 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2019.12.19
                    Time: 21:36:00

             Freeze Frame:
                    Temperature: 24.0∞C


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect.        Labels:. 8P0-907-279-23-H.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P0 907 279 A    HW: 8P0 907 279 A*
   Component: Bordnetz-SG 1.0 H29 0501  
   Revision: 00029000    Serial number: 00000000138663
   Coding: 018C4F00A0141000000000000000000000
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   VCID: 3B2330212F6EAF43460-806E

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 8P2 955 119 C  Labels: 1TX-955-119.CLB
   Component: Wischer WWS Audi350 0180  
   Coding: 16711696
   Shop #: WSC 00000  

3 Faults Found:
01800 - Light Switch (E1) 
            008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01064 - Terminal 58d; Interior Dimming 
            012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit
01314 - Engine Control Module 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 8P0-959-655-84.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P0 959 655 F    HW: 8P0 959 655 F
   Component: Airbag 8.4ED    H01 0130  
   Coding: 0011602
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 45D756D959AAE9B3204-8010

2 Faults Found:
01228 - Airbag Cut-Off Switch for Passenger Side (E224) 
            010 - Open or Short to Plus - MIL ON
01228 - Airbag Cut-Off Switch for Passenger Side (E224) 
            010 - Open or Short to Plus - MIL ON

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel        Labels: 8P0-953-549.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P0 953 549     HW: 8P0 953 549 
   Component: Lenks‰ulenmodul H09 0020  
   Coding: 0000042
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 7BA3F0216FEE6F43060-802E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 8P0-920-xxx-17-MY7.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P0 920 980 J    HW: 8P0 920 980 J
   Component: KOMBIINSTR. VDO H25 0080  
   Revision: D06         Serial number: 2247CD06001118
   Coding: 0004403
   Shop #: WSC 01019 210 136528
   VCID: 3E2539353C7CBA6B61E-806A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels:. 1K0-907-530-V1.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 530 B    HW: 1K0 907 951 
   Component: Gateway         H08 0090  
   Revision: 08          Serial number: 2400103723B0E3
   Coding: 3D0F0342070101
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 2615F155C4EC02AB09E-8072

4 Faults Found:
00470 - Company Comfort Databus in Single Wire 
            011 - Open Circuit
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01101011
                    Fault Priority: 3
                    Fault Frequency: 254
                    Reset counter: 122
                    Mileage: 178930 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2020.03.16
                    Time: 01:39:26

01314 - Engine Control Module 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100100
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 6
                    Reset counter: 162
                    Mileage: 178930 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2020.04.09
                    Time: 00:01:44

01316 - ABS Control Module 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100100
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 162
                    Mileage: 178930 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2020.04.09
                    Time: 00:01:44

01309 - Power Steering Control Module (J500) 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100100
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 162
                    Mileage: 178930 km
                    Time Indication: 0


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer        Labels: 1K0-920-xxx-25.clb
   Part No SW: 8P0 920 980 J    HW: 8P0 920 980 J
   Component: KOMBIINSTR. VDO H25 0080  
   Revision: D06         Serial number: AUX7Z0C7FNK0B3
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   VCID: 3E2539353C7CBA6B61E-806A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver        Labels: 8P0-959-801-MIN1.lbl
   Part No: 8P0 959 801 A
   Component: Tuersteuerger.  H10 0010  
   Coding: 0000048
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 392F2A2925529D5354C-806C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist        Labels: 1Kx-909-143-GEN1.clb
   Part No: 1K1 909 143 L
   Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl.6       0402  
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   VCID: 33331801073E67039E0-8066

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent - MIL ON
             Freeze Frame:
                    Mileage: 8920 km
                    Temperature: 15.0∞C
                    Voltage: 12.10 V
                    Voltage: 11.90 V


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 8P0-959-433.lbl
   Part No: 8P0 959 433 
   Component:    KSG          H02 0040  
   Coding: 008800186D288505485AC63000
   Shop #: WSC 01019 210 175693
   VCID: 79AFEA2965D25D5314C-802C

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1K0 951 605 C
   Component: LIN BACKUP HORN H05 1501

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1K0 907 719 
   Component: Neigungssensor  002 0002

   Subsystem 3 - Part No: 8P0 951 177 
   Component: Innenraumueberw.H02 0010

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System        Labels: 8Px-035-382.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P3 035 382     HW: 8P3 035 382 
   Component: AB2 SUBWOOFERBOXH23 0100  
   Revision: 00001       Serial number: 10000001043808
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   VCID: 70B9D70D36A81C1BA32-8024

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass.        Labels: 8P0-959-802-MIN1.lbl
   Part No: 8P0 959 802 A
   Component: Tuersteuerger.  H10 0010  
   Coding: 0000048
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 3A2D35252054964B5D6-806E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio        Labels: 8P0-035-1xx-56.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P0 035 186     HW: 8P0 035 186 
   Component: concert II EU   H53 0060  
   Revision:      07S    Serial number: AUZ2Z3C1397642
   Coding: 0001001
   Shop #: WSC 06435 000 00000
   VCID: 6FBBD4712B9603E3BA8-803A

2 Faults Found:
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285) 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100100
                    Fault Priority: 5
                    Fault Frequency: 2
                    Reset counter: 161
                    Time Indication: 15

             Freeze Frame:
                    Bin. Bits:       10

01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533) 
            004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100100
                    Fault Priority: 5
                    Fault Frequency: 2
                    Reset counter: 161
                    Time Indication: 15


End----(Elapsed Time: 00:59, VBatt start/end: 11.7V/11.7V. VIgn 11.8V)-----
 
   #2  

DrPeter

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Hello,

There is a White Relay(?) marked 449 (below and to the left of another marked 53) which is Hot to the touch. Does anyone have any idea what it's function in life is and why it might be getting hot?

The relay identifications on the J519 controller are marked/imprinted for example: KL15, KL75, HORN, SHZG,etc... Also the Official Factory Repair Information should detail the relay's locations and their functions.

Any relay can get hot if there is enough electrical load passing through it. If the components that the relay serves are operating at an increased load/resistance, then the relay can really get hot and start to fail.

The other thing that can happen to relays is the increased amount of internal resistance on the two contacts will increase. Over time the contacts 'burn' a bit and loose the contact efficiency, the resistance builds and increases the heat generated and this can the actually accelerate the relays failure. Cheap relays that use inferior contact materials will generally fail sooner then quality (OEM? maybe?? lol) relays.

Relays for the most part are inexpensive enough to justify replacement when they are suspected of failure. OEM can be overpriced, but many of these relays have been updated and will hopefully last longer... ?

The Current Flow Diagram/ helpfully says earth in Main Harness but is that mean one welded earth point or multiple earths that just happen to be at different points in the main harness and end up somewhere else. Any ideas where to start opening up the Harness to find it?

Locations of junctions, sonic welds and other connections within the harness on older vehicles with the limited information the manufacture gives us is difficult to say. Many times as a dealer tech, you are almost always better off running an 'overlay harness' to bypass a suspected connection/weld concern. We used to do that many times at the Audi and Volkswagen dealers I worked at, even with brand new vehicles!


Hope this helps,

drpeter
 
   #3  

Daytona

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Thanks drPeter. Sorry for the tardy reply, I completely missed it!
I have established that this is the relay for interior lighting and that seems to be the only thing that stops working when the relay is pulled. Swapped for a new Audi Relay and does exactly the same thing. Strange thing is that it stars to heat up as soon as the key goes into the ignition before turning it on. It's carrying a lot more current than it wants to I suspect. I found the switch-arm for the glove box light had broken at some point in the past causing the light to stay on and melt the fitting before the bulb blew. That may have shorted wiring somewhere else if it got too hot. With the Relay pulled it throws a terminal 30 fault error.
My user name is in honour of my much loved Triumph motor bike that went up in flames after wiring work at the dealers so I'm not comfortable with anything being electrical being hot if I don't know why.
Content to leave the relay out for the moment until my ABS issues are sorted.
Thank you very much for your explanation and suggestions re the earth issues. Makes obvious sense once it's pointed out. I must be getting old!! Cheers Graham
 
   #4  

DrPeter

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Thanks drPeter. Sorry for the tardy reply, I completely missed it!
I have established that this is the relay for interior lighting and that seems to be the only thing that stops working when the relay is pulled. Swapped for a new Audi Relay and does exactly the same thing. Strange thing is that it stars to heat up as soon as the key goes into the ignition before turning it on. It's carrying a lot more current than it wants to I suspect. I found the switch-arm for the glove box light had broken at some point in the past causing the light to stay on and melt the fitting before the bulb blew. That may have shorted wiring somewhere else if it got too hot. With the Relay pulled it throws a terminal 30 fault error.
My user name is in honour of my much loved Triumph motor bike that went up in flames after wiring work at the dealers so I'm not comfortable with anything being electrical being hot if I don't know why.
Content to leave the relay out for the moment until my ABS issues are sorted.
Thank you very much for your explanation and suggestions re the earth issues. Makes obvious sense once it's pointed out. I must be getting old!! Cheers Graham

Hi, no worries on the delay, glad you were able to post a follow up post here.

There are small 'clamp-on' style Amp-meters you can get now a days that would be useful in tracking down any suspect Amp-draw. They also can help you see the amount of current that is flowing to help determine if it is excessive. Many relays can typically carry 20, 30 or even 40 Amps.

Let us know how it goes,

drpeter
 
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