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Thread: General Corona Virus Discussion

  1. #131
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike R View Post
    I feel like it's mostly just to put up the image that he's a well intentioned individual who wants to keep the people safe no matter what. He thinks that when the election comes around he can tout that he made sure that it was absolutely safe for people to resume regular daily activity and that he wasn't "reckless" when allowing things to reopen.
    And meanwhile he's destroyed millions of peoples' livelihoods...

    ... including even people working in hospitals:
    https://www.inquirer.com/business/he...-20200421.html


    -Uwe-
    Lock-down of sick people: Quarantine
    Lock-down of healthy people: Tyranny

  2. #132
    FoRT jyoung8607's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    It's becoming obvious that continuing these restrictions are no longer about preventing an overload of the hospitals. This kinda makes me wonder what the motivation is....
    Okay, so your primary information source isn't Free Republic, and it's something/someone that uses the old "I'm just asking questions" gimmick.

    Alex Jones? Glenn Beck? Where is this coming from? What suggestions did they give about this other mysterious motivation?
    Silence gives consent.

  3. #133
    FoRT jyoung8607's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike R View Post
    Yeah, I'm registering to vote against Tom Wolf.
    What's YOUR plan?
    Silence gives consent.

  4. #134
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    I personally think they should show videos of the sick people for public view, before and during on ventilator, plasma infusion + dialysis to see the extent of WTF they really don't know for a true perspective.
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  6. #135
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyoung8607 View Post
    What suggestions did they give about this other mysterious motivation?
    How about you tell us what the motivation is for keeping most everything forcibly shut down at this point?

    Early on, it seemed valid to try to "flatten the curve" in order to keep the hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with WuFlu patients. We've more than succeeded in that goal. Hospitals everywhere except the NYC area remain nearly empty, and even in NYC, they were never over capacity.

    We now have a pretty good handle on who gets sick enough from this virus to require hospital treatment; it's primarily "senior citizens" with various underlying health problems. We should focus on trying to keep them from coming down with this. We've actually done a very poor job of that, as evidenced by the fact that roughly half of all the people who've died of or with this virus were nursing home residents.

    But the rest of the population, the younger, healthier people simply aren't at much risk, and trying to keep everyone from catching this "forever" is an impossible task that will accomplish nothing except to leave a smoking crater where our economy used to be.
    Lock-down of sick people: Quarantine
    Lock-down of healthy people: Tyranny

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  8. #136
    FoRT jyoung8607's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    How about you tell us what the motivation is for keeping most everything forcibly shut down at this point?
    As much as I come to you and your company as subject matter experts for automotive advice, I will continue to go to the WHO and CDC and other subject matter experts for how to navigate a pandemic and how much reopening we can handle without stacking dead bodies on the sidewalks outside of hospitals. I may not like their solution, but I will follow it until such time as there's a better one, and no such thing is on offer in this thread.

    The reopening plan offered by Pennsylvania is at least a start upon which further discussion can be based. You want to propose scaling the numbers up or down, do so. Complaining about "tyranny" isn't a plan, and it isn't even tyranny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    Early on, it seemed valid to try to "flatten the curve" in order to keep the hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with WuFlu patients. We've more than succeeded in that goal. Hospitals everywhere except the NYC area remain nearly empty, and even in NYC, they were never over capacity.
    Because and only because the difficult but necessary measures were taken by state and local leadership, over the strident objections of the very same people now prancing around in crowds unmasked in front of capitols and hospitals holding signs with curiously well-coordinated slogans sourced from curiously well-coordinated "local" "grassroots" protest organizations.

    Now the difficult but necessary steps are being taken to reopen things in a careful and controlled fashion. All this will be done bearing in mind the well-understood facts about how it spreads, that it can be spread by asymptomatic carriers, the latency period, and that hospital admissions are a dramatically lagging factor in measuring the spread, and by the time hospitals are even half-full, it means you're screwed in another two or three weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    We now have a pretty good handle on who gets sick enough from this virus to require hospital treatment; it's primarily "senior citizens" with various underlying health problems. We should focus on trying to keep them from coming down with this. We've actually done a very poor job of that, as evidenced by the fact that roughly half of all the people who've died of or with this virus were nursing home residents.

    But the rest of the population, the younger, healthier people simply aren't at much risk, and trying to keep everyone from catching this "forever" is an impossible task that will accomplish nothing except to leave a smoking crater where our economy used to be.
    Primarily is a long way from exclusively, as more than a few healthcare workers crushed with guilt after they brought it home to their spouses or children, even infants could tell you, a few of whom have died, but let's accept that for the moment. Naturally there will have to be a risk/reward tradeoff somewhere. You can't close the nation to save one life. But let's make it easier.

    Can we agree that the total death toll of 3,000 (rounded up) of the September 11th attacks was a truly grave and serious event worthy of a national response to prevent it from happening again? Because right now, in the USA alone, we're putting up that number every 36 hours. Maybe we should try to develop some sort of strategy to stretch it out to only a September 11th attack once a week or so?
    Last edited by jyoung8607; 04-26-2020 at 06:46 PM.
    Silence gives consent.

  9. #137
    Ross-Tech Employee Mike R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyoung8607 View Post
    What's YOUR plan?
    Didn't say I had one, but sooner or later this prevention is going to be worse than just letting things run their course for communities as a whole. You can't shut an entire city down for the whole year which is very possible what would have to happen under his current reopening strategy.

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  11. #138
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyoung8607 View Post
    As much as I come to you and your company as subject matter experts for automotive advice, I will continue to go to the WHO and CDC and other subject matter experts for how to navigate a pandemic and how much reopening we can handle without stacking dead bodies on the sidewalks outside of hospitals. I may not like their solution, but I will follow it until such time as there's a better one, and no such thing is on offer in this thread.

    The reopening plan offered by Pennsylvania is at least a start upon which further discussion can be based. You want to propose scaling the numbers up or down, do so. Complaining about "tyranny" isn't a plan, and it isn't even tyranny.
    You have more faith in those agencies than I do. I lost mine over the last 6 years seeing how they (specifically the WHO and the CDC, but also the FDA and various state health agencies) have utterly mis-handled tobacco harm reduction, and I'm being quite reserved in my wording here.

    There are a half dozen states and an entire first world country that did not impose draconian lock-downs. Can you show us the dead bodies stacked outside their hospitals? Can you even show us a significantly higher transmission or fatality rate in those places?

    The problem with PA's plan is that it sets benchmarks that likely aren't achievable in sort of reasonable time-frame, nor is achieving them necessary in order to prevent overloading the hospitals.

    But if you'd like a different plan, here's one.

    Quote Originally Posted by jyoung8607 View Post
    All this will be done bearing in mind the well-understood facts about how it spreads, that it can be spread by asymptomatic carriers, the latency period, and that hospital admissions are a dramatically lagging factor in measuring the spread, and by the time hospitals are even half-full, it means you're screwed in another two or three weeks.
    Except the transmission rate had already rolled over before the lock-downs were imposed. In other words, voluntary measures were sufficient. I understand that this was not yet apparent at the time that the lock-downs were imposed, but it is now. Unfortunately, those who imposed them are now unwilling to admit they were wrong; that this level of restriction on people's lives simply wasn't necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by jyoung8607 View Post
    Primarily is a long way from exclusively, as more than a few healthcare workers crushed with guilt after they brought it home to their spouses or children, even infants could tell you, a few of whom have died, but let's accept that for the moment. Naturally there will have to be a risk/reward tradeoff somewhere. You can't close the nation to save one life. But let's make it easier.
    Of course it's not exclusively, but the number of deaths under age 45 are for all intents and purposes negligible, and those over the age of 75 out-number all the rest.

    Oh and thank you for pointing out one of the main vectors of community transmission: Health care workers. This should have been obvious since the nursing home in Kirkland, but somehow we did nothing about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jyoung8607 View Post
    Can we agree that the total death toll of 3,000 (rounded up) of the September 11th attacks was a truly grave and serious event worthy of a national response to prevent it from happening again?
    A grave and serious event? Absolutely, as is this pandemic. But we over-reacted to both of them. The reaction to 9/11 gave us a surveillance state, the utterly useless TSA, and endless wars that cost trillions of dollars. The reactions to this pandemic are even more egregious, and just like then, people are willing to accept them, to trade their liberty and privacy for a false sense of security.

    -Uwe-
    Lock-down of sick people: Quarantine
    Lock-down of healthy people: Tyranny

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  13. #139
    FoRT jyoung8607's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    You have more faith in those agencies than I do. I lost mine over the last 6 years seeing how they (specifically the WHO and the CDC, but also the FDA and various state health agencies) have utterly mis-handled tobacco harm reduction, and I'm being quite reserved in my wording here.
    Let's say then, that I look to them, before I look to the leadership of our executive branch who seriously proposed injecting people with bleach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    There are a half dozen states and an entire first world country that did not impose draconian lock-downs. Can you show us the dead bodies stacked outside their hospitals? Can you even show us a significantly higher transmission or fatality rate in those places?
    You're non-specific as to where, but in places with very low population density, it's obviously slower to spread and easier to control, and less draconian measures are required. A great example can be found in your very own Pennsylvania county map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    The problem with PA's plan is that it sets benchmarks that likely aren't achievable in sort of reasonable time-frame, nor is achieving them necessary in order to prevent overloading the hospitals.
    Citation needed for both statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    But if you'd like a different plan, here's one.
    Oh yeah, the plan from the "simple country doctor" with drug cocktail advice which aged very poorly. There's a reason that advice was coming from right-wing "news" instead of the medical community at large, and why those same "news" sources stopped talking about it very suddenly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    Except the transmission rate had already rolled over before the lock-downs were imposed. In other words, voluntary measures were sufficient. I understand that this was not yet apparent at the time that the lock-downs were imposed, but it is now. Unfortunately, those who imposed them are now unwilling to admit they were wrong; that this level of restriction on people's lives simply wasn't necessary.
    Citation needed on literally every part of that statement, which I think you'll find difficult to supply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    Oh and thank you for pointing out one of the main vectors of community transmission: Health care workers. This should have been obvious since the nursing home in Kirkland, but somehow we did nothing about it.
    I can't even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    A grave and serious event? Absolutely, as is this pandemic. But we over-reacted to both of them.
    To laymen, any successful pandemic response looks exactly like an over-reaction.
    Last edited by jyoung8607; 04-26-2020 at 11:31 PM.
    Silence gives consent.

  14. #140
    Verified VCDS User PetrolDave's Avatar
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    If Sweden manages to limit/control the death rate due to Covid-19 without imposing a lockdown then the whole philosophy behind needing a lockdown will be shown to be unnecessarily damaging to economies IMHO.

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