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Thread: W12 Cold start mifires

  1. #1
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    W12 Cold start mifires

    I'm having Issues with cold misfires on Turbo w12 in a 2007 Bentley continental, they occur on only bank one I've Installed new plugs as the original OE plugs were still in the car at some 80k miles. I'm still having issues, Watching Counters live it seems to be all cylinders but only on one bank, and as soon as it warms up it runs great. Also there are some boot control position implausible codes in both banks that clear and come right back I'm wondering if this will have anything to do with it. If Anyone has any insight into these 2 code, which I can find no info about or where to start with cold misfires on this thing, its basically 2 vr6 motors side by side with turbos, I'm kind of at a loss on this thing.
    Here is an autoscan:

    Code:
    Friday,27,March,2020,09:13:08:26287
    VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
    VCDS Version: 19.6.2.2 (x64)  HEX-NET CB: 0.4508.4
    Data version: 20200210 DS308.0
    www.Ross-Tech.com
    
    
    VIN: SCBCR73W37C040340   License Plate: 
    Mileage: 131010km-81405mi   Repair Order: bently
    
    
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    Chassis Type: 3W (3W - Bentley Continental (2004 > 2007))
    Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 26 28 34 36
              37 38 46 47 53 54 57 65 66 68 69 6C 71 75 76 77
     
    VIN: SCBCR73W37C040340   Mileage: 131010km-81405miles
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 01: Engine        Labels: 07C-906-018-BWR1.clb
       Part No SW: 07C 906 018 BR    HW: 07C 906 018 EC
       Component: BY-6.0L-TT      G  6789  
       Revision: --H01---    Serial number: VWZ3Z0F7477543
       Coding: 0001175
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 76A03E9800A192FF8F-5160
    
    2 Faults Found:
    009571 - Turbocharger Boost Control Position Sensor Circuit 
                   P2563 - 008 - Implausible Signal
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 1168 /min
                        Load: 35.3 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 40.0C
                        Temperature: 27.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 12.827 V
    
    006435 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2 
                   P1923 - 008 - 
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 0 /min
                        Load: 0.0 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 47.0C
                        Temperature: 18.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 12.446 V
    
    Readiness: 0110 0101
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 09E-927-156.lbl
       Part No SW: 09E 927 760 S    HW: GS1 911 4
       Component: AG6 09E 6.0L W12TT  2807  
       Revision: 00000001    Serial number:        0084554
       Coding: 0000111
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 40CC984012E56C4FE5-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 3W0-614-517-V1.lbl
       Part No: 3W0 614 517 D
       Component: ESP 5.7 4WD     H01 0021  
       Coding: 0007878
       Shop #: WSC 03266 000 00000
       VCID: 3620FE984021D2FF4F-51CE
    
    1 Fault Found:
    01314 - Engine Control Module 
                013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 05: Acc/Start Auth.        Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
       Part No SW: 3D0 909 137 C    HW: 5WK 484 97
       Component: FE Kessy            6700  
       Revision: 67006015    Serial number: VWZ3Z0F7477543
       Coding: 0405741
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 271E23DC978BBB77C4-5160
    
       Subsystem 1 - Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
       Component: ELV                 XXXX
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 06: Seat Mem. Pass        Labels: 3W0-959-759.clb
       Part No: 3W0 959 759 A
       Component:    CM Seat Pass.    0009  
       Coding: 0000001
       Shop #: WSC 02288 003 1048576
       VCID: 47DE835C37CB5B7724-5160
    
    1 Fault Found:
    01903 - Seat Tilt Adjustment Motor (V231) 
                005 - No or Incorrect Basic Setting / Adaptation
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 07: Control Head        Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
       Part No: 3W0 035 008 D
       Component:    ZAB COCKPIT      2089  
       Coding: 0400325
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 2E10D6F8B871EA3F07-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 08: Auto HVAC        Labels: 3W7-907-040.clb
       Part No: 3W0 907 040 F
       Component: Climatronic BY614   2014  
       Coding: 0000112
       Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
       VCID: 3424C490565DC0EF71-5160
    
    1 Fault Found:
    00714 - Centre Right Vent Positioning Motor (V111) 
                014 - Defective - Intermittent
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 09: Cent. Elect.        Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
       Part No: 3D0 937 049 H
       Component: STG.Bordnetz        5101  
       Coding: 0000107
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 2F2ECBFCBF7BE3370C-5160
    
    3 Faults Found:
    00576 - Terminal 15 
                008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
    00907 - Intervention load Management 
                000 - -
    00884 - Ignition Switch (D) Terminal X 
                008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 11: Engine II        Labels: 07C-906-018-BWR2.clb
       Part No SW: 07C 906 018 BR    HW: 07C 906 018 EC
       Component: BY-6.0L-TT      G  6789  
       Revision: --H01---    Serial number: VWZ3Z0F7477543
       Coding: 0001175
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 76A03E9800A192FF8F-5160
    
    7 Faults Found:
    009607 - Turbocharger Boost Control Position Sensor 2 
                   P2587 - 008 - Implausible Signal
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 1152 /min
                        Load: 34.5 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 40.0C
                        Temperature: 30.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 12.954 V
    
    000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
                   P0300 - 008 - 
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 582 /min
                        Load: 20.4 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 55.0C
                        Temperature: 17.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 13.589 V
    
    000769 - Cylinder 1 
                   P0301 - 008 - Misfire Detected
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 537 /min
                        Load: 19.6 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 57.0C
                        Temperature: 17.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 13.716 V
    
    000771 - Cylinder 3 
                   P0303 - 008 - Misfire Detected
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 537 /min
                        Load: 19.6 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 57.0C
                        Temperature: 17.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 13.716 V
    
    000774 - Cylinder 6 
                   P0306 - 008 - Misfire Detected
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 537 /min
                        Load: 19.6 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 57.0C
                        Temperature: 17.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 13.716 V
    
    000770 - Cylinder 2 
                   P0302 - 008 - Misfire Detected
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 537 /min
                        Load: 19.6 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 57.0C
                        Temperature: 17.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 13.716 V
    
    000772 - Cylinder 4 
                   P0304 - 008 - Misfire Detected
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 01101000
                        Fault Priority: 0
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 255
                        Mileage: 131016 km
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        RPM: 537 /min
                        Load: 19.6 %
                        Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        Temperature: 57.0C
                        Temperature: 17.0C
                        Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                        Voltage: 13.716 V
    
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 15: Airbags        Labels: None
       Part No SW: 3W8 909 601     HW: 3W8 909 601 
       Component: 12 Airbag 9.41  H13 0040  
       Revision: 91H13004    Serial number: 0039L0001C69  
       Coding: 0012594
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 7BB62FAC3B83CF97F0-5160
    
       Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3W7 959 339 
       Component: BF-Gewichtsens. H02 0004
    
       Subsystem 2 - Serial number: 3BP96         
    
       Subsystem 3 - Serial number: 0001.01.0000H0200000000000†63
    
       Subsystem 4 - Serial number: 000000†63328RB4012FCDD5$†63
    
       Subsystem 5 - Serial number: FCDD5$†63428RB4012FCD24S†63
    
       Subsystem 6 - Serial number: FCD24S†63528RB4012FCD88$†63
    
       Subsystem 7 - Serial number: FCD88$†63628RB4012FCD55Y†63
    
       Subsystem 8 - Serial number: FCD55Y†63700RB4        I†63
    
       Subsystem 9 - Serial number:      I†63800RB4        J
    
       Subsystem 10 - Serial number:      J
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 16: Steering wheel        Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
       Part No: 3D0 953 549 D
       Component: Lenksulenmodul     3401  
       Coding: 0000012
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 2E10D6F8B871EA3F07-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 3Wx-920-xxx-17.lbl
       Part No: 3W8 920 840 C
       Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0610  
       Coding: 0023203
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 3C34ECB07E0D08AFB9-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
       Part No: 6N0 909 901 
       Component: Gateway K<>CAN      0101  
       Coding: 0000006
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 70AC088062C5BCCF55-5160
    
    1 Fault Found:
    00456 - Control Module for Access and Start Control (J518) 
                004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 34: Level Control        Labels: 3Wx-907-553-34.clb
       Part No: 3W0 907 553 A
       Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C3V0 7203  
       Coding: 0005561
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 383CF0A04A35248F5D-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr        Labels: 3W0-959-759.clb
       Part No: 3W0 959 760 A
       Component:    CM Seat Driver   0008  
       Coding: 0000001
       Shop #: WSC 03245 104 67957
       VCID: 3FCE9BBC6F1B13B79C-5160
    
    1 Fault Found:
    01174 - Driver Seat Height Adjustment Motor (V138) 
                005 - No or Incorrect Basic Setting / Adaptation
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 37: Navigation        Labels: None
       Part No: 3W0 919 887 F
       Component:    NAVIGATION       2085  
       Coding: 0400000
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 4AD8BA6824D9A61F3B-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 38: Roof Electronics        Labels: None
       Part No: 3W0 907 135 E
       Component: Dachmodul           0707  
       Coding: 0002493
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 383CF0A04A35248F5D-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
       Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
       Component: 52 HSG              0101  
       Coding: 0000040
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 3326C78C5353C7D768-4B1E
    
       Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3W8 959 701 B
       Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 1002
    
       Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3W8 959 702 B
       Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 1002
    
       Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3W8 959 703 B
       Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0401
    
       Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3W8 959 704 B
       Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0401
    
       Subsystem 5 - Part No: 3W0 909 610 F
       Component: 14 HDSG             1809
    
       Subsystem 6 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 A
       Component:    Neigungssensor   0020
    
    6 Faults Found:
    00927 - Terminal 30 (Right) 
                011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
    01516 - Terminal 30; Left 
                011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
    00926 - Terminal 30 
                011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
    00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
                002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
    00576 - Terminal 15 
                008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
    00933 - Electric Window Motor; Passenger Side (V148) 
                005 - No or Incorrect Basic Setting / Adaptation - Intermittent
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 47: Sound System        Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
       Part No: 3W8 035 456 
       Component: 12K-AUDIOVERST      3000  
       Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
       VCID: 79BA35A431BFFD87E2-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 53: Parking Brake        Labels: 3W0-907-801.clb
       Part No SW: 3W0 907 801 D    HW: 3W0 907 801 D
       Component: EPB  BC6HX24    HC6 X240  
       Coding: 0022401
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 373EF39C472B2BF754-5160
    
    2 Faults Found:
    00576 - Terminal 15 
                012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit - Intermittent
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 00100000
                        Fault Priority: 4
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 35
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Voltage: 11.59 V
                        Count: 41
    
    00456 - Control Module for Access and Start Control (J518) 
                004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Fault Status: 00100000
                        Fault Priority: 4
                        Fault Frequency: 1
                        Reset counter: 35
                        Time Indication: 0
    
                 Freeze Frame:
                        Voltage: 11.59 V
                        Count: 247
    
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 54: Rear Spoiler        Labels: 1C0-959-733.lbl
       Part No: 1C0 959 733 H
       Component: Heckspoiler         0002  
       VCID: 302CC880F245FCCF15-51F2
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 65: Tire Pressure        Labels: Redir Fail!
       Part No: 3W7 907 273 
       Component: Reifendruckueberw.  0003  
       Coding: 0480311
       Shop #: WSC 00083 000 00000
       VCID: 7DB221B42597C1A7CE-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 68: Wiper Electr.        Labels: 3Wx-955-023.clb
       Part No: 3W1 955 023 E
       Component: Wische$  
       Shop #: WSC 00000 725 65552
       VCID: 383CF0A04A35248F5D-5160
    
    2 Faults Found:
    00003 - Control Module 
                014 - Defective
    01336 - Company Data Bus for Comfort System 
                004 - No Signal/Communication
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 71: Battery Charger        Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
       Part No: 3D0 915 181 D
       Component: Batteriemanagement  2800  
       Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
       VCID: 240434D0E6BD506FE1-5160
    
    1 Fault Found:
    00456 - Control Module for Access and Start Control (J518) 
                004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 76: Park Assist        Labels: Redir Fail!
       Part No: 3W0 919 283 A
       Component: 02 Einparkhilfe     0303  
       Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
       VCID: 3B36EFAC7B030F97B0-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Address 77: Telephone        Labels: None
       Part No SW: 3W0 035 385 S    HW: 3W0 035 385 S
       Component: rSAP ECU            0054  
       Coding: 0000272
       Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
       VCID: 45C289540DC74967D6-5160
    
    No fault code found.
    
    End----(Elapsed Time: 07:43, VBatt start/end: 13.8V/13.8V. VIgn 0.0V)------
    Last edited by Uwe; 03-27-2020 at 05:31 PM. Reason: CODE tags

  2. #2
    Ross-Tech Employee DrPeter's Avatar
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    Hello,

    You may need to drop the engine/transmission. If the vacuum lines behind the engine/on top of the transmission have never been replaced, this could be a source for vacuum leaks.

    When the engine is cold, the air/fuel mixture is depending upon a map for it's adjustment, any false air leaks (vacuum leaks) can sometimes be seen as cold misfires. As the engine warms up and when the Oxygen sensors come on line(ready/closed loop), the air/fuel mixture is adjusted accordingly and misfires typically can disappear.

    You can see evidence of this in the Measuring Value Block group [032] in both the [01-Engine] and [11-Engine II]. Any positive number would be an indication that the fuel mixture is lean (having to add fuel due to a vacuum leak). In the first field on both banks 1 and 2, the mixture should be close to [0.00] (+/-) 2-3%, depending on engine wear, fuel quality, atmospheric conditions, etc.

    This may help: Fuel Trim Info - Understanding Fuel Trim


    The vacuum lines on the 6.0L W12 engine of the early Bentley vehicles are a hard plastic and are known to fail/crack/split.

    Complete engine removal is the way I replace these vacuum lines, some people have suggested to access then through the power steering rack area with the rack removed. I like to do this type of job right and it is much easier to do extended service work, oil leak repairs, suspension work, etc.. You could be in the 5-digit range, in parts and labor, just depends..


    Here are some pics of what you will see.... I had to drop this engine for a new alternator, vacuum line replacement and all the wear parts of the suspension, along with a major service and taking care of some oil leaks.

    Also, with the engine out, you can access the turbo and it's boost control components, hoses, electrical connections, etc

    Top down view of transmission



    Left Side view eng/trans



    Whole Transmission, top view



    You will need a good source of Bentley parts (internet search) and the Official Factory Repair Information


    Hope this helps,

    drpeter

  3. #3
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Just kills me they couldn't extend all the metal pipes to place that switched stuff in a box underside or in bay for service.
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
    Certified Master Trained NY/BAR/BAD 7076062/ASE/SAE/NASTF Legal Factory Authorized/Licensed GeKo/FaZit # 403738
    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

  4. #4
    Verified VCDS User
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    Wow, Thanks, I'm going to smoke check it now, at least I have a direction, thank you.

  5. #5
    Verified VCDS User
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    Also, by chance do you have an idea of book time or ballpark labor for engine/ trans R&R? should it go that way.

  6. #6
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    It's in any crash book or RTFB?
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
    Certified Master Trained NY/BAR/BAD 7076062/ASE/SAE/NASTF Legal Factory Authorized/Licensed GeKo/FaZit # 403738
    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

  7. #7
    Ross-Tech Employee DrPeter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanDreamsPerformance View Post
    Also, by chance do you have an idea of book time or ballpark labor for engine/ trans R&R? should it go that way.
    Hi, I have seen some dealerships charge as much as 40 hours for this type of work. It really depends on what you find the vehicle needs. There maybe labor times on the erWin Bentley Motors, I do not recall seeing any, but I did not look either.

    In some cases, you "might as well" replace worn/damaged parts, service items and take care of any potential issues, leaking seals, brittle plastics, etc.. and all that adds up and gets expensive!

    So, I just tell these types of customers, what every time it takes, it takes... On that note, sometimes these vehicles end up getting parted out due to the amount of money it can cost to fix these vehicles properly. And it does not help that the resale value of these vehicles is still dropping.


    Again, hope this helps,

    dpeter

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