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Thread: Swapping Bosch wet flooded battery to Varta AGM Battery (No BEM)

  1. #11
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    Will it not matter that the battery spec is different to the previous battery?

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    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic_V8 View Post
    Will it not matter that the battery spec is different to the previous battery?
    Like I said easlier, there's not really any explicit way to change the battery spec on that first-gen battery management system. All you really need you need to do here is tell it it's got a new battery, and changing the serial number accomplishes that.

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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  4. #13
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    Perfect thank you very much for your help. Now got to figure out if i can turn off the TPMS as keep getting the error on the dash each time i start the vehicle. No sensors installed when i purchased the vehicle.

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    Uwe and Dave, are You sure that installing AGM battery in a place of a regular one will not shorten it's life?
    I have no data from practical experiments, but according theory AGM requires a bit different charging voltage.
    From another point of view, a lot of modern cars with start-stop feature (mainly equipped with AGM batteries) use charging voltage 15V and higher to get battery recharged ASAP and keep start-stop system functional even in city traffic with a lot of stopping/starting cycles and short distances between them, and don't care about battery lifetime...

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    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinsX View Post
    Uwe and Dave, are You sure that installing AGM battery in a place of a regular one will not shorten it's life?
    I have no data from practical experiments, but according theory AGM requires a bit different charging voltage.
    From another point of view, a lot of modern cars with start-stop feature (mainly equipped with AGM batteries) use charging voltage 15V and higher to get battery recharged ASAP and keep start-stop system functional even in city traffic with a lot of stopping/starting cycles and short distances between them, and don't care about battery lifetime...
    Sure? No. Confident? Yes. Back in the day when we were contemplating doing BMW software as well, we got a 2002 BMW 325i brand-new. The original (conventional) battery died quite suddenly at about 2 years. I replaced it with an AGM. It stayed in there for somewhere between 7 and 8 more years, at which time we parked had parked the car an extended period of time, and it wouldn't start when we returned to it. We jump-started it, drove it some, charged put it on a charger, and it seemed OK, but at 7-8 years of age, and knowing the battery had been in a state of substantial discharge for some time, I didn't trust it, so I replaced it. Anyway, if a car battery lasts 7-8 years, I don't think its life has been shortened.

    AGM batteries will tolerate higher charge voltages (and currents) because they have very low internal resistance, but I don't think they require higher charge voltages to love a long, happy life. That said, I think it would be a terrible idea to install a conventional (wet) battery in place of an AGM in a car that's got a charging system designed for an AGM. Those higher voltages likely will shorten a wet battery's life.

    The good news is that most modern VAG cars with start/stop systems do let you specify the type of battery. The bad news is I'm not sure I understand the difference between the "Fleece" and "AGM" choices available in that Adaptation channel in some Gateways. It seems to me those should be synonyms for the same type of battery.

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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    Verified VCDS User PetrolDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinsX View Post
    Uwe and Dave, are You sure that installing AGM battery in a place of a regular one will not shorten it's life?
    I have no data from practical experiments, but according theory AGM requires a bit different charging voltage.
    From another point of view, a lot of modern cars with start-stop feature (mainly equipped with AGM batteries) use charging voltage 15V and higher to get battery recharged ASAP and keep start-stop system functional even in city traffic with a lot of stopping/starting cycles and short distances between them, and don't care about battery lifetime...
    The AGM battery was still going strong when I sold my RS4 after having been in place for more years than the original wet battery - so on that (limited) experience I would say the AGM battery didn't have its life shortened.

    Similarly I fitted an AGM battery to my other car (a Citroen C1) when the OE wet battery expired after 3 years, the AGM battery was in place for 7 years and I only replaced it (with an identical AGM battery) when the workshop advised that's its capacity was down to 70% and I didn't want to risk Winter starting problems as the car is only used once a week. So that experience also suggests that fitting an AGM battery in place of a wet one does not reduce its life.
    Last edited by PetrolDave; 02-02-2020 at 06:36 AM.

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    Sounds good! Then I have only one possibility left - to agree with You.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    The bad news is I'm not sure I understand the difference between the "Fleece" and "AGM" choices available in that Adaptation channel in some Gateways. It seems to me those should be synonyms for the same type of battery.

    -Uwe-
    That was confusing me too, when I look in parts catalog. And in first gen BEM's only different battery partnumbers can be selected, without description of battery type and capacity. So I have to use some reverse investigation by comparing available partnumbers in BEM selection with the ones in parts catalog, and they did not match, because are changed from time BEM was designed... So I need to trace supersession chain, too.

    Actually could bee nice to have any data do, and if yes, then how, the charging voltage/current curve really changes if selecting one of battery partnumbers marked "Fleece" in catalog.

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    VCDS Distributor Boki Ar's Avatar
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    Uwe,

    what do You mean "Fleece" battery? Is a enhanced flooded battery (EFB) in question, please.

    For example, if we are charging a Fleece battery, what parameters should be set? Is the rule 10% of capacity valid? (75Ah = 7.5A) and how much V? 14,8 or more...

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    Verified VCDS User PetrolDave's Avatar
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    This page on the Varta website suggests that EFB batteries also use a fleece, so maybe an EFB battery is what is being referred to as "fleece"?

    https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-...ery-technology

    EFB batteries support applications that operate at a partial state of charge and don’t require the deep-cycling characteristics of an AGM battery. A polyfleece scrim material, added to the positive plate surface, makes this possible. This helps to stabilise the active material of the plates, which increases the endurance.




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  15. #20
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boki Ar View Post
    what do You mean "Fleece" battery? Is a enhanced flooded battery (EFB) in question, please.
    A random current GW (GatewNF) has the following choices for battery type:
    • Wet
    • Fleece
    • Wind6V
    • Wind12V
    • Ultracap
    • Gel
    • Lithium ions
    • EFB
    • Binary - AGM
    • EFB+

    So it seems that there is a distinction between "Fleece", "EFB", "EFB+", and "Binary - AGM", and there is still no clarity here.

    The other thing I find interesting about this list is that there's only one entry for "Lithium Ion" when it's well know that there are two quite different chemistries:

    There are the 3.6-3.7V (nominal) traditional Li-ion cells; these are the type used in virtually all modern EV traction batteries (and cell phones and laptops) due to their high energy density. The can be charged to 4.2V per cell, so battery with 3 cells in series should never see more than 12.6V, but one with 4 cells in series would need a over 16V to be charged fully.

    Then there is the 3.3V (nominal) LiFePo type cell, popularized by A123 Systems, that can be charged to 3.6V. They are much less volatile than traditional Li-ion cells, but also have considerably less energy density. If you buy a "Li-Ion" starter battery for a car or motorcycle (they save a lot of weight compared to a lead-acid battery), it will almost certainly have four LiFePo cells in series. That makes it compatible with most existing charging systems (but the charge voltage should not exceed 14.4V).

    So which kind of "Lithium ions" battery is that entry for?

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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