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Thread: People renting VCDS

  1. #21
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    when vehicles (or private space ships) become nuclear powered, not only will you need DOE certified equipment, but you may even need a DOE certification just to open the hood.

  2. #22
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Nope but I have had some conversations with a prosecutor on someone else's behalf about VCDS or blue box logs, further letting them know I was prepared to be sworn in to validate the data that contradicted an enforcement official & that was clearly lying and writing many people unlawfully abusing his power.

    Another time I brought a laptop with digital photo's to show a sign on road was unobservable to me and it was quickly dismissed, but everyone else apparently paid a fine by plea deal.

    See one thing about people is they are lazy especially enforcement, they focus on one task to keep it easy for repetition and than lay the traps, just like lawyers that specialize with templates or any other job hence why legal zoom was possible or any franchise, assembly line etc.?
    While it can be considered a creative way of pumping shit out in volume, I'd much rather surround myself with a think tank like here with you guys.

    Some arguments are not worth the time I have found but often I get tangled with my principles on a matter to make a stand & I think this is the RT approach to avoid such confrontations because it's not worth the fight for the cost and not just monetarily but the stress.
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  4. #23
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    The pertinent question thus remains and I believe Don has quote elegantly covered, why isn't the EEPROM facility made available? I agree with Don that you can brick a car with VCDS, you can cause all sorts of problems like any kid playing around with adults equipment. Enthusiasts (which we all are) is the lifeblood of any organisation. Who wants to be forced to pay VAG hundreds of dollars for new modules when you can for example get one from a crashed Skoda and use it in your Seat, flashed and parameterised for a tenth of the price.

    I am already not in favour of paying for access to flash files and diagrams but we are being pushed further and further towards ODIS. Life is hard enough with SWAP, FEC's and CP.

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  6. #24
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    Lets start getting the basics right like label files being complete and populated before worrying about eeprom programming

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  8. #25
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    ^^^^I think that someone needs to re-title this thread - perhaps "Miscellaneous complaints"?

    Don
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

  9. #26
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    Yes the thread title certainly does not fit any longer.

    Do those posting here think that Ross-Tech has not weighed these matters?

    If we allow the ability to flash modules, where would the flash originate? That is, who owns the flash you want to move from a Skoda module, dropping it into a different VAG vehicle? The courts will eventually brought into that question. Is the firmware in a vehicle owned by the company that created the module, the car manufacturer who established the design standard and the requirement, or the end user who owns the car? No matter, when you take it from a crash car, who owns that program? Is the content of a control public? Is the program running a home computer free for anyone to take and move and do with it as they want?

    Do you think that VAG would tolerate our offering their IP to the world? You do realize that VCDS is the most installed diagnostic tool in the world? Yes, I am including clone installations... Do you think for one minute VAG would sit still for us distributing their flashes? Their PIN codes? Playing games with Component Protection?

    Several have suggested that the knowledge of modifying program values in an EEPROM is something we should offer. If you are one of those, could you sleep at night knowing that your tool provided the means for cars to be easily stolen? For laws to be easily circumvented? Who would be held responsible? With tech toys, it's unclear. Is it not an anticipatable misuse of a product? Ever hear of the lawn mower used as a hedge trimmer? The designers should have known is what the court said.

    There seems to be a suggestion in this thread that Ross-Tech should loose it's old school values and embrace the values of competitors who seem to not care whether they are stealing other's work. "Go ahead and take the work of VAG and use it for your profit" seems to be what some might say. "Go steal their data so we can benefit and have what we want. If you do that, we could have complete label files. We could have flashes. We could have wiring diagrams and procedures all over your website."

    Sure - and Uwe will get striped or bright colored pajamas with 3 free meals a day and all the sex he may not want!

    Look, I don't speak for Uwe. That said, I will speak to Uwe and fight any attempt to shed our old school values. If the stuff VCP and OBDeleven provide - skirting law - is needed, and you can live with that idea that they are doing things in the margins, then they are the tools to buy. If you want to do the things VCDS cannot do but do it legally/properly, pay VAG for the work they do and use their ODIS tools.

    Sure, Ross-Tech would love for VAG to enable us to be equal to their ODIS tool by opening the access to their information. But why would VAG want to do that? They are in business to make profit selling and maintaining autos. If they enabled others with a complete open book, how would they then stay in business and how would they keep their tech edge over their competitors?

    As we have already discussed, Ross-Tech had to close our open book. VAG and Ross-Tech are not different in that regard.

    For 20 years, Uwe has had to make choices. What should VAG-COM/VCDS support? He decided it must not allow people to steal cars. It must not use any information direct from VAG that is not obtainable through public means or experimentation. It must not use or abuse any software or hardware product that can be deemed to be the intellectual property of VAG. Use of the tool should not allow a user to circumvent established law in any country and Ross-Tech will have no part in documenting the means to circumvent law should the tool provide a means. To me, these are pretty simple and clear values. Asking Ross-Tech to be like VCP or OBDeleven is the equivalent of asking Uwe to abandon his honor and his integrity. You ask him to not be Uwe Ross.

    A prediction: VCP and OBDeleven will be slapped for their theft of VAG IP. If my information is correct, VCP recently got slapped by VAG for their use of VAG owned property... Changes were made. OBDeleven? They too will get slapped. VAG moves slow but moves with tremendous power. One should be careful when toying with the largest auto manufacturer in the world. They have lots of lawyers on staff who need to justify their existence.

    Any of you familiar with AutoLogic? Do you know why they no longer sell the Blue Box? Do you know why they had to change their entire business model and why they ended up being sold? Yep, they were caught distributing flashes through their tools. They ended up in court with Volvo. VAG settled with them out of court. They no longer have their own VAG tool. They run ODIS through their platform.

    We hear what you want. I do not see the ethical path to providing such.

  10. #27
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    Bruce: thanks for sharing your thoughts - which are as always, erudite and well argued.

    Clearly this debate has stirred-up deep seated feelings that none of us had intended and I don't seek to extend what has become a difficult topic

    However, being "one of those" protagonists for change - I feel the need to make a final remark as endorsement for my (and I'm sure, other like-minded colleague's) value-set in suggesting the move to EEPROM capabilities.

    With the greatest respect - the overt link that is made in your response between the suggestion for EEPROM facilities and the dubious morals of those of us that support this suggestion is well.......... at best entirely inappropriate and at worst extremely atypical for someone who has demonstrated in his past writings to be a fair minded person.

    I've absolutely no doubt that a major issue for Ross-Tech is straddling the VAG tight-rope between legitimate IP and copyright theft but to label those of us that support the counter view as being motivated by the dark-side is just so wrong (and I suspect that you will agree)!!


    Now - let's talk about something way more interesting - perhaps the meaning of life (and everything)?

    Don
    Last edited by DV52; 01-22-2020 at 04:24 PM.
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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  12. #28
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    The only thing I can think is this and since no one wants 100 different interfaces right & with thoughts of adaptions and parameterization in mind?

    Bruce don't you think Uwe & RT as a whole, should just consider adding a PASS-THRU interface with drivers to function?
    RT can sell it as a plugin & support it for a fee & that comports with SVM/GeKo access & specifically provided that the user gets a username and password from VAG or NASTF credentials etc. or files from VAG/ERWIN or authorized third party database?
    This way VCDS could be broadened and not break any laws using the regulations and laws in the USA to get access to what customers crave, "functionality" not electrolytes!
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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  14. #29
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    A hammer can be used for murder, as well as hammering nails.

    Craftsman doesn't get sued or arrested (or maybe they do?) when someone uses their hammer to do something illegal?

    John Wick can kill people with a pencil, should kids be allowed to continue to use them?

    Just because a tool can be used to modify eeprom or other parameterizing(sp?) functions, might be used for illegal purposes, doesn't mean that functionality isn't desirable or usable for legal operations.

    Torrents get a bad rap due to pirating etc.

    RAR/ZIP files can be used to pirate too, but those tools don't quite have the same bad wrap.

    Not even gonna go into firearm comparisons.

    The examples are endless, but the point is the same.

    The responsibility is on the user.

    Now, that does not mean I suggest providing firmware files or other copyrighted material through your product.

    But as a suggestion, I'm sure there are ways to implement functionality, while still providing you control over its use, such as 'cloud' authentication and logging for any legally 'grey' or risky functions.

    And of course, as owner(s) you are well within your rights to refuse to support anything you don't want to within your product, to the loss of potential customers to other products/services (be they other 3rd parties or VAG themselves).

    Please understand, I am not really trying to stir the pot, but the stance of not supporting something, just because it may be used for non-legal purposes, is just about as slippery slope as it comes.

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Dub View Post
    .But as a suggestion, I'm sure there are ways to implement functionality, while still providing you control over its use, such as 'cloud' authentication and logging for any legally 'grey' or risky functions.
    If VAG says NO,-across the board then we are back to the drawing board. I think that's what Bruce was hinting at

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