ABS - VCDS accessing ABS controller module - what is turned off?

   #21  

Fussybob

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As an engineer I'm sure you are aware that the ABS systems are not fairing well at NHTSA huh?
Further with those credentials couldn't you just ask your friends at Bosch and ETAS, to let you review the files stack using INCA?

I haven't done any communications with those automotive guys in 15-20 years, no contacts now. I went to the other side 20 years ago, Aerospace/Defense before retiring. I'm 70, I just don't need questionable brake issues at this point in my life.
 
   #22  

Jack@European_Parts

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Dont you think whoever is responsible for the design of single hard wire ultrasonic welds in controllers, sensors at Bosch should be hung up side down & in hot sun by their balls brushed with honey & in proximity to known killer bees nest?
 
   #23  

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Gentlemen: Let's not turn this into a clash of personalities.

Bob: You still haven't described the activation itself in any detail at all.

Have you looked at the values from the acceleration sensors to see if they're plausible? I'd look at the longitudinal one first.

-Uwe-
 
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Dont you think whoever is responsible for the design of single hard wire ultrasonic welds in controllers, sensors at Bosch should be hung up side down & in hot sun by their balls brushed with honey & in proximity to known killer bees nest?

It's all in the name of costs! I was involved when Audi/VW had massive ignition coil failures in 2002 (cost them $100M+). My company did not supply the ignition coil electronics at that time but we knew what the major cause was. We had a replacement part which solved their issue. It cost 10 cents more per ignition coil than the current supplier component. They wouldn't go for it, cost too much, said they would work with current supplier to fix the issue, they failed revision after revision, lost a ton of money. They just wouldn't spend 40 cents on a 4 cylinder, 60 cents o a 6 cylinder, etc......
 
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Fussybob

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Gentlemen: Let's not turn this into a clash of personalities.

Bob: You still haven't described the activation itself in any detail at all.

Have you looked at the values from the acceleration sensors to see if they're plausible? I'd look at the longitudinal one first.

-Uwe-

I will do that. I did data log one, I'll revisit it. I remember seeing the acceptable value range somewhere with all my reading on the net. Do you know where those acceptable values may be located?

Maybe I should just get a new sensor module, fairly cheap, easy to replace. I'm not positive but I may have read that if I change the sensor module that I may need recoding, and at least recalibration of the ABS module?
 
   #26  

Jack@European_Parts

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About fucking time we get a guy here that has a conscience with good engineering judgement!
Bob welcome to the club!
This just kills me when I look at this video.


Oh on coils they could of absolutely used better shit in blueprint or ground wire size too?
 
   #27  

Jack@European_Parts

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It's all in the name of costs!

You don't say, was this why diesel gate too?:p
Seriously though do you see this type of welds in avionics?
Doesn't this design run crazy interference in dielectric smothering when measuring low range pulse signals, not to mention sporadic connectivity during resonance fracture?
 
   #28  

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Hi Fussybob,
On a practical point, the symptoms you describe are typical of a wheel speed sensor signal drop out, in older vehicles a cracked reluctor ring or sensor air gap. In your case a possible wheel bearing magnetic reluctor starting to fail. I would be trying to determine this with a log of all WSS or better still logging with a 4 channel oscilloscope.
Regards HMC
 
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   #29  

Jack@European_Parts

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Hey Bob,

Did you know there is a TSB and two times compete superseded part number for your ABS with SVM maybe ask VAG about that?

Part Information
PART NUMBER ILLUSTRATION DESCRIPTION REMARK MODEL RRP
* 8R0 614 517 CJ 614-010 ABS-unit
8R0 614 517 CH
8R0 907 379 AM
SVM
(6-55) PR-A8U+1AT on request Not available
Dropped: Dec 1, 2016 (EKZ: M)
Supersession
PART NUMBER
8R0 614 517 DR ABS-unit



You "Smiling Bob" yet!
 
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   #30  

Fussybob

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Hi Fussybob,
On a practical point, the symptoms you describe are typical of a wheel speed sensor signal drop out, in older vehicles a cracked reluctor ring or sensor air gap. In your case a possible wheel bearing magnetic reluctor starting to fail. I would be trying to determine this with a log of all WSS or better still logging with a 4 channel oscilloscope.
Regards HMC

I have logged the wheel speed sensor data, all 4 look good, track each other on straight road. No drop outs. In the beginning I was hoping it was a wheel sensor and easy fix.

I need to say it again - when VCDS is hooked up and accessing the ABS controller I don’t have any early ABS activation issues. ABS, brakes work perfectly fine. ABS is not disabled when using ABS as I can get it to operate by braking on loose gravel.

I do have a portable battery powered 2-channel memory o-scope which I could use to monitor wheel sensors for dropouts but that is going to take some time and effort to tap into each wheel sensor wiring connector.
 
   #31  

Fussybob

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Hey Bob,

Did you know there is a TSB and two times compete superseded part number for your ABS with SVM maybe ask VAG about that?

Part Information
PART NUMBER ILLUSTRATION DESCRIPTION REMARK MODEL RRP
* 8R0 614 517 CJ 614-010 ABS-unit
8R0 614 517 CH
8R0 907 379 AM
SVM
(6-55) PR-A8U+1AT on request Not available
Dropped: Dec 1, 2016 (EKZ: M)
Supersession
PART NUMBER
8R0 614 517 DR ABS-unit



You "Smiling Bob" yet!


I have looked for TSBs a few days ago and the only one that I found for the Q5 that may include my build year was for damaged at the factory wheel speed sensor wiring harness. From my data gathering my wheel sensors work perfectly.

There are always improvements made to parts with new revisions. The ABS system has a great self test routine at startup. I have no error codes or warning lights indicating ABS module, pump, valves are fine.
 
   #32  

Jack@European_Parts

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I have looked for TSBs a few days ago and the only one that I found for the Q5 that may include my build year was for damaged at the factory wheel speed sensor wiring harness. From my data gathering my wheel sensors work perfectly.

There are always improvements made to parts with new revisions. The ABS system has a great self test routine at startup. I have no error codes or warning lights indicating ABS module, pump, valves are fine.

Well why did they change it two more times, is it because it's a steamer? :rolleyes:
 
   #33  

Fussybob

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Well why did they change it two more times, is it because it's a steamer? :rolleyes:

The ABS modules most likely have production changes in raw parts availability, adaptation to new vehicle models, improved functions, such as adaptive cruise control, improved reliability, many, many other reasons. And many new suppliers. Q5's now built in Mexico use north American sourced parts, not the tried and proven European parts.
 
   #34  

Jack@European_Parts

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The ABS modules most likely have production changes in raw parts availability, adaptation to new vehicle models, improved functions, such as adaptive cruise control, improved reliability, many, many other reasons. And many new suppliers. Q5's now built in Mexico use north American sourced parts, not the tried and proven European parts.

I happen to know a bit about coils myself and why they fail + have some part numbers on the brain, did you know that? :p

Usually when a part number traditionally "doesn't" fail, the number doesn't change or due to a vendor that produced it, don't you know that merely from reading the forensic damage code books and microfiche from VAG?

How come coils with this number were campaigned too & during and after your stint you aforementioned in the sloppy VAG 06A-905-097 how come it never changed, but was long before campaigned due same issues as in 1.8T and superseded to part 06A-905-097A & only after 2014, but why?

It was produced for the factory by Temic/Telefunken/Eldor/Bosch/Beru/STI-KARYLYN and all under the same part number, but how come?

Than of course there was 06B-905-115E with integrated power stage & that was produced by Hitachi for Jokeswagen 1996> and never was superseded NEVER TO DATE, nor did it really ever fail, huh.... I wonder why & that went to the shitty 1.8T?
Than there was 078-905-104 and didn't change in the ATQ V6 until 2010 078-905-104A but was recalled & long before the same part number from many vendors, why?

I just question stuff and am busting your balls..........all in good fun.:p
 
   #35  

Fussybob

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I happen to know a bit about coils myself and why they fail + have some part numbers on the brain, did you know that? :p

Usually when a part number traditionally "doesn't" fail, the number doesn't change or due to a vendor that produced it, don't you know that merely from reading the forensic damage code books and microfiche from VAG?

How come coils with this number were campaigned too & during and after your stint you aforementioned in the sloppy VAG 06A-905-097 how come it never changed, but was long before campaigned due same issues as in 1.8T and superseded to part 06A-905-097A & only after 2014, but why?

It was produced for the factory by Temic/Telefunken/Eldor/Bosch/Beru/STI-KARYLYN and all under the same part number, but how come?

Than of course there was 06B-905-115E with integrated power stage & that was produced by Hitachi for Jokeswagen 1996> and never was superseded NEVER TO DATE, nor did it really ever fail, huh.... I wonder why & that went to the shitty 1.8T?
Than there was 078-905-104 and didn't change in the ATQ V6 until 2010 078-905-104A but was recalled & long before the same part number from many vendors, why?

I just question stuff and am busting your balls..........all in good fun.:p

In the massive coil failure in 2002 the coils were produced by Eldor, and maybe Temic, Bosch was deeply involved with this. The problem coil element was the IGBT (Insulated Gate Bi-polar Transistor) produced by Motorola. Motorola was a competitor of ours and we knew that their IGBTs had problems at low temperatures. Ours didn't. This is why most VAG owners had immediate coil failure at startup in the morning. This is was good for VW/Audi as the coil failure didn't cause many, or none, moving accidents to happen. The reason the part number Rev didn't change as VAG didn't change the coil configuration, just worked with Motorola until the part reliability was improved over time. The batch/ID brand along with part number tells the manufacturer and what parts and part batches were used.
 
   #36  

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I ran 3 more test sessions today and came up with nothing.

Run 1 - No VCDS connected, moderate braking from 50 mph, ABS came on at 40-35mph. Did this on 3 hill test location, ABS came on early at each spot. At the bottom on the level road no ABS with moderate braking.

Run 2 - VCDS connected, moderate braking from 50 mph, no ABS came on at all. Did this on 3 hill test location, no ABS at each spot. At the bottom on the level road no ABS with moderate braking.

Run 3 - No VCDS connected, moderate braking from 50 mph, ABS came on at 40-35mph. Did this on 3 hill test location, ABS came on early at each spot. At the bottom on the level road no ABS with moderate braking.

Here is the data from when VCDS is hooked up. It's just too bad that I can't have the ABS problem when it's looking at data. After the test run I drive on gravel with ABS activating. There is just something turned off/modified in ABS diagnostic mode that is the clue to my problem. When I braked I focused on pushing the brake pedal and never lifting my foot, just kept pushing hard. Look at the brake pressure readings during the braking, the pressure drops. There is no indication of wheel speed sensor problems they track

0246F4E5B3874106BDE39D0F3973B953.jpg
 
   #37  

Jack@European_Parts

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Like VAG says if there is no MIL nothing wrong here sir looks good from my house? :rolleyes:

Maybe PSI sensor is a slight false read or stroke of rod to master incorrect gap, is booster proper part number in vehicle?

Are you sure more coils didn't fail due to inadequate grounds and heat, because why would units work with no issue if you enhanced the ground and shield for triggers?
 
   #38  

Fussybob

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Like VAG says if there is no MIL nothing wrong here sir looks good from my house? :rolleyes:

Maybe PSI sensor is a slight false read or stroke of rod to master incorrect gap, is booster proper part number in vehicle?

Are you sure more coils didn't fail due to inadequate grounds and heat, because why would units work with no issue if you enhanced the ground and shield for triggers?

Brake booster is the one from the factory. Everything had worked just fine for 6.5 years.

The 2002 coil pack failure issue was definitely just one part, the IGBT.
 
   #39  

Jack@European_Parts

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Any brake work performed such as pads or shims and when was fluid changed last and is it correct type, maybe contaminated with FOD?
 
   #40  

Fussybob

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Any brake work performed such as pads or shims and when was fluid changed last and is it correct type, maybe contaminated with FOD?

Please read all my posts...…….

When VCDS is hooked up the Q5 works perfectly! No early ABS activation on moderate braking.

When VCDS is not hooked up ABS comes on early - this is the problem.

Brake pads, fluid, etc. has nothing to do with the problem.
 
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