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Thread: Can the patient be saved ? FOD identification help please B8 A4 2.0 TFSI

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack@European_Parts View Post
    VW Tech line has been known to publish clearly they don't understand blocks from basic settings or adaption, no? Sometimes they can't even reference whether a car is gas or diesel properly too?

    The aforementioned for what I state should be a rule, well it is for me and ever since a rebuild on an old ATQ many years ago, it figuratively bit me right in the ass!

    Car came in with smoked valves from adjuster shoes worn to nub.
    The sprockets are press fit on cam & with no alignment marks whatsoever nothing in RTFB & if they move on press fit. After reassembly, new chain, tensioners, belt etc. etc. and all tapers lined up with dead on adjusters, fired car up & the car had a G40 code and a slight stumble.
    So like a dumb ass I commenced the basic settings test in 094 and it was time to install two new valves and in end a new intake cam.
    That day I took a new set of cams and documented the non existent alignments and do so on anything that is similar in design internally.

    Either people can absorb what I'm trying to say here or fuckem suffer the fool!

    Don't say I didn't warn you!

    Tech line could not answer the timing mark for press fit question either, I had to talk to friends at SWAG in AG!
    Just because one individual on their team couldn't figure out a rare, oddball issue doesn't mean all their suggestions are trash...

    Are they all spot on the money the first time? No. But I've definitely had a couple that were really, really good when I worked at the dealer. And this is a measurement they repeat frequently to technicians as a useful guideline... I sometimes used them for things I pretty much already knew the answer to just so I wouldn't get screwed if it ended up not working and they decided to dock pay for not fixing it the first time. Then I get to say "AH ah ah! Tech line told me to...! Pay up!" Usually wasn't necessary, but covering one's ass is the name of the game when warranty pay is already super stingy and you can be completely back-flagged for the time you invested.

    I've also heard that the current guys compared to who they had maybe 15-20 years ago, whole different ball game. They've been improving on their processes to assist technicians quite a lot in that time... unfortunately they also use that as an excuse to pay techs less and less, then wonder why they can't keep the smart guys around.

    Of course, that doesn't help someone figure out something like the sprocket being rotated on the end of the shaft... or a cam lobe, for that matter. Which does happen on EA888s on occasion... and 2.5s. The shafts are hollow, the lobes are press/heat fit to the shaft and can indeed rotate on the shaft.

    Anyway, whatever might have happened with the instructions in the manual for the 2.8 must have changed as I did one of those recently and the factory repair manual was pretty spot on with the difference between banks. Plus, just taking careful note of where it is before disassembling always helps, at least if it's a known-good operating unit prior to disassembly. I was in there just fixing oil leaks... Valve cover gaskets, chain tensioner gaskets and the round plugs at the back of the exhaust cams.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack@European_Parts View Post
    VW Tech line has been known to publish clearly they don't understand blocks from basic settings or adaption, no? Sometimes they can't even reference whether a car is gas or diesel properly too?

    The aforementioned for what I state should be a rule, well it is for me and ever since a rebuild on an old ATQ many years ago, it figuratively bit me right in the ass!

    Car came in with smoked valves from adjuster shoes worn to nub.
    The sprockets are press fit on cam & with no alignment marks whatsoever nothing in RTFB & if they move on press fit. After reassembly, new chain, tensioners, belt etc. etc. and all tapers lined up with dead on adjusters, fired car up & the car had a G40 code and a slight stumble.
    So like a dumb ass I commenced the basic settings test in 094 and it was time to install two new valves and in end a new intake cam.
    That day I took a new set of cams and documented the non existent alignments and do so on anything that is similar in design internally.

    Either people can absorb what I'm trying to say here or fuckem suffer the fool!

    Don't say I didn't warn you!

    Tech line could not answer the timing mark for press fit question either, I had to talk to friends at SWAG in AG!
    Id like to think that on that motor and others like the 2.7t its a general rule of thumb that when doing that kind of work you loosen the sprocket bolts and "pop" the cam sprockets with a puller so they free spin. But that's why the elliptical washers are there, to use the cam timing bar from bank to bank... Long story short, the only mark you need is the crank pulley notch to cover, doing a t-belt, or adjusters, the cam bar will lock the whole top end right. Granted with adjusters leave the valve covers off so you can confirm the cam notches to the cam caps, if the crank is off, since the cam sprockets are popped, top end locked with the bar, just turn the crank pulley till its in time and the whole timing belt moves with it, then tighten the cam bolts and your good to go. Dont misunderstand me, you're definitely a smart person and know what you're doing seeing some of the things you post that i learn from, but just seems like it was a preventable situation for someone like you.

  4. #33
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Id like to think that on that motor and others like the 2.7t its a general rule of thumb that when doing that kind of work you loosen the sprocket bolts and "pop" the cam sprockets with a puller so they free spin. But that's why the elliptical washers are there, to use the cam timing bar from bank to bank... Long story short, the only mark you need is the crank pulley notch to cover, doing a t-belt, or adjusters, the cam bar will lock the whole top end right. Granted with adjusters leave the valve covers off so you can confirm the cam notches to the cam caps, if the crank is off, since the cam sprockets are popped, top end locked with the bar, just turn the crank pulley till its in time and the whole timing belt moves with it, then tighten the cam bolts and your good to go. Dont misunderstand me, you're definitely a smart person and know what you're doing seeing some of the things you post that i learn from, but just seems like it was a preventable situation for someone like you.
    This is exactly the type response I was expecting and hoping for & to make this point even more well known, you fell right into the trap, further showing you know some things but not of what I am speaking.

    I am not making reference to the cam belt sprockets that freewheel, I am speaking of the chain sprockets at the adjuster on the cams directly. The notch you reference is on the cams as you describe, however, the sprockets are press fit and have no mark or key way keys to ref, so if a cam sprocket moves there is no disruption of the cams at each notch but the links you count and deviation of the adjuster will go unseen. Especially if you are taking apart a motor which is already damaged.

    This is why on new engines I center punch any index unmarked timing to each other for future inspections on my own vehicles.

    SAMZ09 Please consider what I have tried to convey here and if you need further instruction let me know, trust me it will click!
    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 11-01-2019 at 06:43 AM.
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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  5. #34
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Just because one individual on their team couldn't figure out a rare, oddball issue doesn't mean all their suggestions are trash...
    Yup the head asshole in charge at the time!
    I copied people in the emails, so it can be established too!

    CYA .....absolutely!
    Documentation is King indeed!
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
    Certified Master Trained NY/BAR/BAD 7076062/ASE/SAE/NASTF Legal Factory Authorized/Licensed GeKo/FaZit # 403738
    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

  6. #35
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    What I am trying to share here, should resonate with all of you which truly understand the mechanical mechanisms I speak.
    Especially the Dictator in charge!
    I see this thread as an essential work detail and use of tester lesson for many that could save people much headache or drama for money not needed to be spent.
    The OEM should be ashamed for not addressing it either, because it has cost the VAG company millions internally and because of shear/sheer laziness!
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack@European_Parts View Post
    What I am trying to share here, should resonate with all of you which truly understand the mechanical mechanisms I speak.
    So true - too many people rely on the electronic diagnostic systems to tell them what a complex mechanical system is doing - and if those diagnostics were written by someone without sufficient mechanical knowledge, or don't have good input data from sensors (GIGO), the diagnostics WILL be misleading.

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  10. #37
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    In this case it is about 4 things & which are VCDS VERY important!

    Measuring blocks = Watching/Observing but be mindful!

    Basic settings or adaptation = An order instruction you better know WTF you are doing, damage could be lurking if used improper by command of wrong instruction!

    Mechanical mechanism knowledge/training + RTFB = To be used with VCDS/VAS and VCDS or VAS are not to substitute the SSP or RTFB & Training never ends!
    RTFB/SSP is sometimes wrong or omits critical material or entire industry is mislead by ignorance.

    FOD! = Always be aware that FOD is possible and FOD can be induced even by design flaw & YOU/ME!


    I make mistakes, this is not one of them and am indeed an asshole at times, possibly now, it is with my utmost sincere request you all consider this thread with a very large degree of importance/priority!

    NostraJackASS Has Spoken an ORDER!
    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 11-01-2019 at 06:45 AM.
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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    Specializing in Custom Services IE: "welding-fabrication" / EPA-SMOG Update or Pass-Thru-Programming / Data Transfer / Immobilizers & OEM Quality Parts
    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack@European_Parts View Post
    This is exactly the type response I was expecting and hoping for & to make this point even more well known, you fell right into the trap, further showing you know some things but not of what I am speaking.

    I am not making reference to the cam belt sprockets that freewheel, I am speaking of the chain sprockets at the adjuster on the cams directly. The notch you reference is on the cams as you describe, however, the sprockets are press fit and have no mark or key way keys to ref, so if a cam sprocket moves there is no disruption of the cams at each notch but the links you count and deviation of the adjuster will go unseen. Especially if you are taking apart a motor which is already damaged.

    This is why on new engines I center punch any index unmarked timing to each other for future inspections on my own vehicles.

    SAMZ09 Please consider what I have tried to convey here and if you need further instruction let me know, trust me it will click!
    HAHA seemed to good to be true, someone like you saying such a thing..He didn't use the bar? ha Unless i read it wrong, I was under the impression you were speaking of the front sprockets. Kinda looked like a trap... felt like a trap.. had to be a trap and it was! ha. But no not really because i took something away from it. Yes i have personally encountered shifted sprockets, shifted cam lobes, shot needle bearings on the roller rockers, intake and exhaust (also the audi with vvt) on the tsi motors, fsi possibly but really cant remember. I'm no veteran of the trade so that said I've worked on almost all the motors, not W12 though. But a shifted sprocket on a 1.8t, 2.7t, or 2.8 i happen to not have happen to me. SO ive learned its possible even on the older engines as well. I may have seen at some point aftermarket parts that made me notice the gears are not integral but it long slipped my brain.

    So i completely follow all the things you've said, however let me add this, if i can word it correct.

    Say you're swapping a adjuster, you use paint to mark the chain so R&R it goes back to same. Your not using the notches so you wont know. But..technically if you were to use the notches. Even if one gear was to move, trying to align the other cam would always put the other out of spec. (edit) IF counting the links between cams while doing all these other things, then i guess you'd see the problem right then no?) Front sprocket with ellipse, connected to cam, cam with notch, cam the gear. So using the bar would set the exhaust cam, and put the intake cam out, or turning the intake cam would make the bar not line up no?

    Granted it would be hard to see if the gear was to shift say half a tooth, the adjuster may still extend and make it look passable. So one out would make the other one out right? Unless 1 in a million both gears shift the same amount or something then that'd really screw you up.

    What was your situation if you can remember, one or both cams? or both but one more than the other?

    side note, had a parts 1.8t and did take a gander at one of the cams, it did have a punch mark on the cam and the cam gear, was it from the factory or added by someone else i cant say. I guess that would be the only reference point. Unless you personally know, or have a set of good cams for each engine laying around, if cams dont have a mark and you are trying to confirm. How would you? because yes something like a shifter gear by half a links worth can happen. And youll go nuts trying to solve it if you know no better

    First shifted cam gear i ran into on a tsi, good thing there was a good set of cams to use for comparison
    Last edited by Samz09; 11-01-2019 at 08:53 PM.

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  13. #39
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Car came to me dead towed in & as a xylophone head with bent valves and adjuster shot, dealer put a belt in and an adjuster on one side, then I got the phone call.

    I have always used the lock bar and indeed let the cam gears freewheel when setting a belt, however, the heads cams can be done on bench without any cam lock bar & installation of an adjuster with chain to cams the bar is not relevant for what I speak.

    You are kind of missing the point.

    Two things are happening when a cam has floated on the sprocket.

    1. It has effectively broken the "press fit" hold from sprocket to cam and the float permits a move that doesn't show or possible under load not install visually!
    ( The only way to know is to press off and verify or if it was prior marked showing clear deviation )
    2. Notches on cams will appear as if in proper spot/location and link count checks to lock bar causing the deception.
    3. If you painted sprockets that were already floated on press fit & on damaged engine there is no point of that right?
    4. Exhaust cam with lock bar or without and irrelevant to sprocket location since notch is at 12 o'clock position anyway on each cam!

    Yes I have informed many of this and some guys are center punching sprockets and cams on outer face, no the OEM doesn't have a key way at notch in cam and no they don't mark them for press fit reference. ( yup it's stupid that they don't )

    Engines that are in for routine service & with no pre existing catastrophic damage won't have a problem unless someone sets the timing & like really really wrong, but again is why I am saying if you have a timing correlation DTC, don't do basic settings for adjuster and permit the adjuster to advance & because it can cause what I aforementioned. Shit you already know it's out of time at that point anyway & by the fact you have the DTC!

    I have now seen it mostly on intake cam but it can happen on exhaust too or both in a luck of the draw of a damaged motor when adjuster shoe has gone rouge or inadequate oil PSi/volume is not making its way to head, cams or adjuster.

    Yes having a set of new or known good used cams will be a quick way to ref the sprockets correct location and to make a mark on each, but the sprockets should be removed in press and verified for press fit deviation damage on a damaged engine before reusing a cam.

    So many assholes set the cam timing wrong on a 1.8T just because they forget to factor for oil PSI deviation and that the exhaust cam is at 12 and intake is slightly after in relaxed state + the RTFB shows a stupid illustration.

    I wrote this a while back due too it. https://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...lling-a-bellt!

    Samz09 thank you for engaging!
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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    Above Magic! No Written record, AUTO-SCAN or Appointment = NO HELP!
    www.FixMyEuro.com <<<<<CLICK HERE! or vwemporium@aol.com ( JPPSG & Unverified members need not PM me & Please don't email or call facility for free tech support...use the forum )
    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

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  15. #40
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    I had heard the cam front sprocket was a "press fit" .. and that just blows my mind (small explosion). No splines ? No woodruff key ? Really .. it is the cost of manufacturing that drives that type of decision. I can't speak to any of those specific VAG products you guys are talking about, but have seen the same with Boeing and Airbus and the related suppliers. There is stuff out there the will bite you .. and big time.

    What I am trying to share here, should resonate with all of you which truly understand the mechanical mechanisms I speak.
    I am speaking about our professional field here

    One only needs to look at the current issue with Boeing and it's "737 MAX"

    Mechanical mechanism knowledge/training + RTFB = To be used with VCDS/VAS and VCDS or VAS are not to substitute the SSP or RTFB & Training never ends!
    RTFB/SSP is sometimes wrong or omits critical material or entire industry is mislead by ignorance.

    FOD! = Always be aware that FOD is possible and FOD can be induced even by design flaw & YOU/ME!
    It's a professional attitude I believe Jack is referring too, I believe we need to live them, and to pass the standards on. I said early on I debated whether or not this was a UWE BAR discussion ... I am glad there are people out there like you guys, it gives me hope for a profession I grew up being around, worked life long in. The guys that welcome a challenge and refuse to let a machine beat them

    Jack, it's crazy that stuff your experimenting with ... where do you find the time

    Mike

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