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Thread: Can the patient be saved ? FOD identification help please B8 A4 2.0 TFSI

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    Can the patient be saved ? FOD identification help please B8 A4 2.0 TFSI

    I was hoping to be able to post photo of the FOD removed by a local shop.

    Background, and I'll try to keep the story short. Was getting a little rattle on start up every once in a while. Very sporadic. The vehicle threw a cam sensor code 2X and idle, had like a rich roll all (Lambda was good - less than 1%) No miss fire codes.

    Did some research here and reviewed TSB's. The vehicle has 163,xxx miles on it. It's never had any cam work done on it or had the tensioner replaced - Soooo ... not having the time or tools or experience with doing the job on the engine I took it to a HIGHLY reputable shop. Had the tensioner replaced, asked about chain "stretch" and wear. I was talked out of doing a chain and guide replacement. Values and measurements were checked all found to be good.

    FAST FORWARD 30 Days - pulled into my parking lot after driving 30 plus miles, stepped on the clutch and the vehicle died. No restart - pushed it into a parking space. Went back out during a break to do some checking, car started and ran very rough at idle but would run, codes were misfires all over the board, unresolved cam sensor and failure to fully retard during start. Anything above 1000 rpm seemed to be OK - other than the exhaust note is off of normal - more of a low and throaty tone. I determined it would run home without damage, suspecting it was a breather valve problem - high vacuum at the oil cap and ran smother with it off. Still had my concerns with cam timing and it's control. Breather valve change smoothed things out slightly - still had rattle low in the forward end of the engine during start. I brought it to another shop - with a good reputation closer to home.

    During their diagnosing process, the cam bridge was removed. A spring and a few little metal bits were found in the oil galley directly below the exhaust cam. (wish I could post those pictures)

    I have searched the net, and manuals available to me to find an oil circuit diagram to figure out where it came from and what it was for ? the shop I am dealing with is at a loss for where it liberated itself. Anybody know of a oil circuit schematic for an EA113 CAEB ?

    Jack ? Dr Peter ? Uwe ? .... almost posted this at the bar, because I've had a couple of beers pondering over saving the patient (cost effectively) or not. Being a professional technician I know anything can be repaired with enough time and money ...

    thank you
    Mike
    Last edited by BigJetTech; 10-18-2019 at 02:00 PM. Reason: added info -

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    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJetTech View Post
    I was hoping to be able to post photo of the FOD removed by a local shop.
    [...]
    (wish I could post those pictures)
    And I think we all would love to see them.

    So have a look here: How to Post Pictures

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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    ^^^^BigJet: Hi - very interesting and intriguing story - looking forward to the next episode, so please post pictures!!.

    I'm certainly not an expert on VAG engines and (like you) I couldn't find an oil circuit schematic for the EA113 (TFSI), but I was able to cobble together a couple of pages from the SSP for the 2.0 L TSI engine.

    My understanding (which may be wrong) is that in respect of the oil circuitry, the principal difference between these 2 x engines (aside from the placement of components on the left/right side) was in the way that the camshaft drove the high-pressure pump (i.e the inclusion cam on the high pressure pump and a rolling tappet to fix a known problem - the camshaft was not sufficiently hardened in the earlier models).

    If I'm correct, I'm hoping therefore that there is significant similarity between the circuit diagrams for the 2 x engines. Anyhow, with this caveat - see below!!!


    Don

    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJetTech View Post
    ..................... Anybody know of a oil circuit schematic for an EA113 CAEB ? ...................................
    Is not the Audi CAEB an engine code for the TSI EA888 not the EA113 FSI??

    So oil diagram provided is what you are looking for.

    May want to take a look at TB/TSB 2045454
    Last edited by MVB; 10-18-2019 at 11:02 PM.

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    Uwe, thank you.

    here are the photos ... https://imgur.com/a/HG1Q88w







    Don, thank you ! Probable suspects, Items 17, 23 and 24...

    MVB - You are probably correct that the engine is an EA 888 - I know for sure it is a CAEB code. Thank you.

    I would assume (and hope) if it was from the bridge assembly, items 22 & 23 that it would have been seen by the shop when they had the bridge off. Item 24 i am guessing is the control valve. That leaves item 17..... Yes ?? ...

    like I said early on ... great bar discussion amongst technicians.

    I have recommendations for the shop doing the work, and completely understand where they are coming from as a customer service and reputation stand point. I would do the same.
    The vehicle is back together, starts and runs, like before. Like its got a big block 3/4 race cam in it, with a cool exhaust note. Cam timing is off. I am considering putting a new bridge and control valve in it and seeing if that will do it. It's a 2010 with 163xxx on it, in great shape, I am not sure its cost effective to replace, the head and intake cam, chains etc for a commuter vehicle. I've owned it from 49xxx on ...

    Mike
    Last edited by Uwe; 10-19-2019 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Added images from album in-line

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    MVB, Thank you GREATLY for providing that TSB, I am not sure why that doesn't show up in Alldata under Audi. Audi hiding it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJetTech View Post
    I am not sure why that doesn't show up in Alldata under Audi.
    When it comes to VW/Audi, we refer to Alldata as "Somedata, Wrongdata, or Nodata".

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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    OP

    Did the oil smell like FUEL?
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    That little spring is from the cam bridge, it sits behind the mesh screen and ball. The same length spring is used in the exhaust cam sliding lobe assembly but the thickness of that coil spring is much thicker so you can rule that out. I would replace the cam bridge. Your lucky it was sitting right there and not clog a oil port to the lifter/s as ive seen it on multiple occasions. Also inspect the N205 valve, variable timing solenoid, the reverse threaded valve for the intake cam, if the center button/valve is not flat/flush it is defective and will trigger misfires and correlation codes. Search N205 valve on google for a reference as to what it should look like.

    Side note, The labor to get to the tensioner, better yet, to change the chain and guides while doing the tensioner would have added 30 minutes additional labor to the job because you still have to remove all the same parts, minus the upper cover and cam bridge. And ALSO the chain should have been replaced because they do stretch and new revisions are out. My opinion, kind of bad advice telling to not change at least the chain more so than the guides. How i see it, you're in there already, you know their problematic parts, why not change it all? and to the updated parts? And not second guess or worry about the parts you did not change.

    -Sam

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    Uwe, lol, yes, Regrettably I have found that to be true as well.

    Jack, No fuel smell in the oil. Oil pressure has not been checked .. yet.. debating whether or not to drop the pan, there was no metal on the magnetic plug or sparkling oil.

    Sam, Thank you. ... I know better, 40 yrs of maintenance experience and my gut instinct thought it would be best. I deferred to a shop that is supposed to "know" the product. They are "specialists" with a very good reputation. So it was just the tensioner ....

    Now, not having pulled the bridge myself, and just seeing pictures of the back side of the bridge, would one not see that the screen, spring and check ball are missing ?

    I will be retrieving the vehicle early this next week and plan on changing the cam bridge, and control valve. I can not see doing the recommended repairs - intake cam, bridge, control valve, potentially a new head, (depending on journal condition) and timing chains to prolong the life of the vehicle. That is the minimum recommendation, this shop would actually prefer to replace the engine as the amount of metal it made - if any - is unknown. The parts and labor involved would exceed the retail value of the vehicle.

    I will report back once I have done the bridge and control valve. I want to inspect the scoring on the cam myself.

    THANK YOU to ALL who provided input and advise. These engines aren't my forte. Give me a Pratt, Rolls or GE !! something with a 90 plus inch fan preferred

    Mike

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