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Thread: 2020 US Presidential Election

  1. #21
    Ross-Tech Employee Mike R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kawzx7 View Post
    Truth is, I was a Bernie guy before I was a Trump guy. Had the Dems not screwed him, we’d be talking about President Sanders.

    I seriously doubt it. Hillary was more moderate than Bernie (obviously). Bernie would have simply scared off some of the more moderate voters to either go 3rd party or more stay home. Trump may be an asshole, bigot, and egotistical maniac, but he's not a true radical on the US political spectrum like Sanders is.
    Last edited by Mike R; 07-01-2019 at 10:12 AM.

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  3. #22
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike R View Post
    I seriously doubt it. Hillary was more moderate than Bernie (obviously). Bernie would have simply scared off some of the more moderate voters to either go 3rd party or more stay home. Trump may be an asshole, bigot, and egotistical maniac, but he's not a true radical on the US political spectrum like Sanders is.
    It's really hard to say. Keep in mind that Hillary was regard as somewhat more evil that the Wicked Witch of the West by about half the country, whereas Bernie was/is regarded as a well-intentioned (albeit misguided) socialist.

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

  4. #23
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    had to post


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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    Although I do not agree with this (because government cannot provide anything to Paul without stealing it from Peter first), I'll point out that the current crop of Democratic candidates takes it several steps beyond providing medical services to citizens. During the second debate, all ten candidates indicated (by a show of hands) that their government plan would provide health care coverage to undocumented immigrants (i.e. non-citizens who have entered the country illegally). So basically, they are offering health care at the expense of US tax payers to any of the planet's 7.7 billion inhabitants who can manage to sneak into the US by some means. I'm sorry, but IMO that's being a bit too generous with the wealth of our nation.

    -Uwe-
    First, allow me to apologize to those reading these posts for hijacking the topic - albeit there appears to be a relevance for discussing universal healthcare in this tread through Uwe's confirmation that this issue has appeared in the second debate.

    Second: I'm well aware that I'm a foreigner and I fully recognize that I hold very "un-American" views regarding this matter.

    This said, I acknowledge that the tax purse of any country is a limited resource and that it's the role of every citizen in a democratically elected government (via their vote) to decide how to slice-up the tax pie. And like any nation on either side of the equator, similar considerations have occurred here. In fact, Australia has even invented a macroeconomic term for the drive to reduce the size of the welfare spend: "economic rationalism".

    With the greatest of respect, and as a specific reply to the apparent dichotomy between the health-care spend in your country and the potential reach of America's largess to "7.7 Billion" recipients -aren't these entirely different issues?

    Not surprising, I think that we agree that a citizen (regardless of financial status) in trouble should have access to the health care facilities of that country (not surprising to me, because ALL Americans that I have met have been an empathetic and humane lot). But I agree - the pivotal question is: should this inalienable citizen right be extended to "undocumented immigrants"?

    hmm.... while the economic rationalists in my country might "rationalize" that it's not Australia's role - I think that this response is way too naive.

    It's far too easy to sit in our comfortable surroundings and dispassionately say that "undocumented immigrants" deserve what they get because they have entered the country illegally. But the only honest and correct way to answer this vexed question (IMHO) is to put ourselves in the shoes of a triage nurse who is confronted by the "undocumented" parents of a 2 year-old child with a life threatening complaint. Of course I have manufactured this example - but this is deliberately done to highlight that hard-edged economic decisions have real consequences that can impinge on who we are as a nation.

    Without wishing to be too dramatic in Uwe's bar - in truth, it's the way that we answer these most difficult of questions that is the true measure of our humanity as human beings (I believe).

    To my mind (and Australia does face the same problem with "undocumented immigrants" albeit the tyranny of distance is a salve to the size of this problem), the answer is an overwhelming YES - regardless of citizen status everyone who is physically in the country must have access to the country's health-car services.

    As to how to deal with the "7.7 Billion" - this is a totally separate question that some have said can be solved by a F#cking huge wall erected around the border (note: nothing new about this solution, the Chinese did something similar in 771 BC). Here in Australia, we have outsourced this problem by hiring the services of the governments in Nauru and Manus Island!

    Don
    Last edited by DV52; 07-01-2019 at 07:58 PM.
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  8. #25
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Don,

    Illegal aliens already receive free healthcare in the USA, It's the citizens who are being short changed.
    Working and non working.
    Fact:

    Most bankruptcies in the United States, are a result of an inability to pay for a medical problem.

    Now healthcare industries try to get people to sign waivers to automatically drain any assets that could survive such an insolvency or a reaffirmed waiver to collateralize the dept on future assets acquired or even a retirement.
    The illegal gets to move to next town or state etc. and circumvent all of it and that seems just a tad unfair to the rest of us.
    There will always be people that can't pay, but that is what Medicare and Medicaid are already for.

    A single pay mandatory flat fair tax universal healthcare system should be levied to anyone that buys anything and whistle blower laws on fraud of Government should be extremely strengthened to make it unthinkable.

    I think a menu for a cost of services should be mandated displayed and the fees that can be charged to avoid confusion.

    Creative billing and lack of transparency are a serious problem.
    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 07-01-2019 at 08:28 PM.
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  10. #26
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    But I agree - the pivotal question is: should this inalienable citizen right be extended to "undocumented immigrants"?
    Personally, I don't agree with the premise that anyone has a "right" to health care. "Health care" is goods and services that are the fruits of some people's intellect and labor. No person has a "right" to the fruits of another's labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    As to how to deal with the "7.7 Billion" - this is a totally separate question that some have said can be solved by a F#cking huge wall erected around the border (note: nothing new about this solution, the Chinese did something similar in 771 BC). Here in Australia, we have outsourced this problem by hiring the services of the governments in Nauru and Manus Island!
    You also have an entire continent surrounded by an ocean. You don't have something like 100,000 people walking across over 3000 km of mostly unprotected land border land border (just on the south side). OK, something like half that border is a river, but that river can easily be waded across for a good portion of the year.

    Oh, and it's supposed to be a YUGE wall. Say it right: YUGE!

    -Uwe-
    Last edited by Uwe; 07-01-2019 at 09:05 PM.
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

  11. #27
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack@European_Parts View Post
    I think a menu for a cost of services should be mandated displayed and the fees that can be charged to avoid confusion. Creative billing and lack of transparency are a serious problem.
    A agree with this, but not the rest of what you wrote. But more than that needs to happen to get things under control:

    One of the reasons health care costs so much is that hardly anyone actually pays for it out-of-pocket, and when someone else is gonna pay for that hospital bill anyway, why would you expect the patient care what it costs?

    Health insurance used to pay 80%. That left some incentive for people to price-shop if they could. These days though, it's generally covers everything except a flat co-pay, like $100 / day in the hospital for the first 5 days or some such. So it doesn't matter if you go to a hospital that bills $500 a day or one that bills $1000 a day, the patient's cost is $100 either way.

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post

    Oh, and it's supposed to be a YUGE wall. Say it right: YUGE!

    -Uwe-
    "YUGE" !!!
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  15. #29
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    One of the reasons health care costs so much is that hardly anyone actually pays for it out-of-pocket, and when someone else is gonna pay for that hospital bill anyway, why would you expect the patient care what it costs?

    Health insurance used to pay 80%. That left some incentive for people to price-shop if they could. These days though, it's generally covers everything except a flat co-pay, like $100 / day in the hospital for the first 5 days or some such. So it doesn't matter if you go to a hospital that bills $500 a day or one that bills $1000 a day, the patient's cost is $100 either way.
    -Uwe-
    Not totally accurate, it's done in advance with most likely a supplemented insurance policy & this is marketed as a means of desensitizing the billing & to keep the status quo and bilk people out of more money.
    The poor bastard with nothing, gets everything and the dude that is just getting by, gets slaughtered.

    Its easy when one has the ability to pay or is successful enough in business to say this, but think of how many businesses started & fail in first 5 years than succeed?

    Those statistics don't lie....
    https://www.google.com/search?q=stat...3R_pwqB6cOGkM:
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  16. #30
    Ross-Tech Employee Mike R's Avatar
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    Another reason Universal Health Care doesn't work here in the US as much as it might elsewhere in the world, is the sheer levels of profiteering that are permitted to happen in the industry.

    U.S. health spending twice other countries' with worse results

    The U.S. spends about twice what other high-income nations do on health care but has the lowest life expectancy and the highest infant mortality rates, a new study suggests.

    In 2016, the U.S. spent 17.8 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on healthcare. Other countries’ spending ranged from a low of 9.6 percent of GDP in Australia to a high of 12.4 percent of GDP in Switzerland.

    A large part of this was administrative costs, which accounted for 8 percent of GDP in the U.S., more than double the average of 3 percent of GDP.

    If the U.S. did less imaging and fewer of 25 common procedures, and lowered prices and the number of procedures to levels in the Netherlands, it would translate into a savings of $137 billion, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel of the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania writes in an accompanying editorial.
    Two of the biggest crime syndicates in the US are the Health Care industry and the Student Loan sharks.

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