2020 US Presidential Election

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   #421  
Uwe

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Fred's Imports said:
She sat on Willy's staff.
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tyFGzUy.gif


-Uwe-
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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   #426  
DV52

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^^^^^^ Trump praises QAnon conspirators, appreciates support

Jack: Trump wouldn't be paranoid if it wasn't for his firm belief that everyone in the world was against him!!!

Don

PPS: Just heard about Steven Bannon's arrest!! Of course, he is not guilty until charges are proven and the timing near Biden acceptance speech is interesting- but how many are on the list of past Trump associates that have gone the same route?

Roger Stone, Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, Michael Cohen, George Papadopoulos - any more?
 
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   #428  
Mike@Gendan

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Jack@European_Parts said:
https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...-lead-to-re-do-of-november-election/24593407/

Trump floats idea that fraud could lead to re-do of November election
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Taken from that article:
"It will end up being a rigged election or they will never come out with an outcome," Trump told reporters on Tuesday. "They'll have to do it again, and nobody wants that."

As much as half the ballots in the November election could be cast by mail due to America's coronavirus crisis, election experts say. That is up from about one in four ballots that were cast by mail in 2016.

Trump himself votes by mail.
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   #429  
Uwe

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Mike@Gendan said:
Trump himself votes by mail.
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The media constantly conflates "Absentee Ballots" (which is what Trump uses) with "Vote By Mail". Despite the fact that Absentee ballots are returned via the mail, they are not at all the same thing. A person must actively request an Absentee Ballot. They are intended for people who cannot be in the jurisdiction where they are registered to vote on election day. Typical examples are: Members of the armed forces who are away on duty, college students who are away at school, and people like Trump (and Linda and me) who own a second home that is a considerable distance from the place where they are registered to vote.

"Vote by mail" is different. It means every registered voter is mailed a ballot, whether they want one or not. This is absolutely rife for fraud because we don't purge the rolls of registered voters, and one party in particular objects to every attempt at such a purge. That means there are lots and lots of "registered voters" in just about every jurisdiction who have died (and thus are no longer eligible to vote), or have moved away and have registered to vote elsewhere. Now let's suppose that Linda's parents (who live next door to us; we actually share a driveway) were to pass away, or move to a nursing home in another state. We would still be collecting any mail addressed to them. What would prevent us from filling out the ballots that would continue to arrive for them for years into the future in a vote-by-mail system?

-Uwe-
 
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Mike@Gendan

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Uwe said:
"Vote by mail" is different. It means every registered voter is mailed a ballot, whether they want one or not. This is absolutely rife for fraud because we don't purge the rolls of registered voters, and one party in particular objects to every attempt at such a purge. That means there are lots and lots of "registered voters" in just about every jurisdiction who have died (and thus are no longer eligible to vote), or have moved away and have registered to vote elsewhere. Now let's suppose that Linda's parents (who live next door to us; we actually share a driveway) were to pass away, or move to a nursing home in another state. We would still be collecting any mail addressed to them. What would prevent us from filling out the ballots that would continue to arrive for them for years into the future in a vote-by-mail system?

-Uwe-
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Ah, how odd.
It sounds like fraud being enabled by too much red tape.
I wonder if it's because the red and blue sides of US politics seem so starkly divided?

Over here you have to specifically apply for a postal vote (or proxy vote - where a nominated person votes on your behalf), otherwise you're expected to vote in person (if you want to vote).
Every household gets annual letters from their local council asking the current residents to confirm or correct (by post or online) the current occupants of the property who are of voting age.
One of the few instances of the UK having quite a well organised system.
 
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Bruce

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I think you may have missed Uwe's point. The system prior to the pandemic was like yours. You had to apply for a mail in ballot.

Now with the pandemic, with the implementation of "vote by mail", all registered voters will get a ballot in the mail whether or not they requested/applied to receive one.
 
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Mike@Gendan

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Ah, I hadn't realised it was a change from the normal system.
Not updating the electoral register seems absurd though.
 
   #434  
jyoung8607

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Uwe said:
The media constantly conflates "Absentee Ballots" (which is what Trump uses) with "Vote By Mail". Despite the fact that Absentee ballots are returned via the mail, they are not at all the same thing.
...
"Vote by mail" is different. It means every registered voter is mailed a ballot, whether they want one or not.
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Trump's declared residence of Florida has exactly one (1) procedure for anyone who wants to vote by mail. The name Florida has given this procedure is "Vote By Mail". Any Florida resident may use this procedure for any reason they wish, including but not limited to those reasons traditionally given (in other states) for absentee balloting. It requires an application in advance in order to receive a ballot.

https://dos.myflorida.com/elections/for-voters/voting/vote-by-mail/
https://www.myfloridaelections.com/Voting-Elections/Ways-to-Vote/Vote-by-Mail-Absentee-Ballots

Uwe said:
Typical examples are: Members of the armed forces who are away on duty, college students who are away at school, and people like Trump (and Linda and me) who own a second home that is a considerable distance from the place where they are registered to vote.
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Your declared residence of Pennsylvania does have separate mail-in vs absentee ballot procedures. Both require an application in advance in order to receive a ballot. The only difference in the applications is the absentee ballot app asks for a reason, and the mail-in ballot doesn't. It's unclear why two different procedures exist, perhaps it's historical artifact.

https://www.votespa.com/Voting-in-PA/Documents/Absentee_Ballot_Application.pdf
https://www.votespa.com/Register-to-Vote/Documents/PADOS_MailInApplication.pdf

Uwe said:
This is absolutely rife for fraud because we don't purge the rolls of registered voters, and one party in particular objects to every attempt at such a purge. That means there are lots and lots of "registered voters" in just about every jurisdiction who have died (and thus are no longer eligible to vote), or have moved away and have registered to vote elsewhere. Now let's suppose that Linda's parents (who live next door to us; we actually share a driveway) were to pass away, or move to a nursing home in another state. We would still be collecting any mail addressed to them. What would prevent us from filling out the ballots that would continue to arrive for them for years into the future in a vote-by-mail system?
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There do exist a few states that are mailing out ballots without applications, I think at least some of them due to COVID-19. They are very much the exception, and it's valid to question how that's handled. I suppose you could look at Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah, and Washington to see how they've developed a strong history of free and fair elections primarily by mail. After all, whether or not you apply first, and no matter what name you call it, you do eventually get a ballot in the mail which could be stolen at that point. I'm just going to assume you know that stealing people's mail and forging their signatures is something that's actually quite difficult to get away with in a scale meaningful to most elections.

Speaking of "one party in particular", something much much easier to get away with at-scale is reshaping the set of people who are able to vote. This is done through selective purges of voter rolls just before elections rather than just after, careful selection of polling places and hours and staffing, and various other impediments to voting that statistically select against undesirable voters. When people in expensive suits with extravagant well-funded campaigns and their own television networks tell you they're worried about mail-in ballots being stolen, what they're actually worried about is mail-in ballots being cast by the intended recipient after all the time and money they spent to keep them away from the polls.
 
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   #435  
jyoung8607

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Mike@Gendan said:
Ah, I hadn't realised it was a change from the normal system.
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It is, but not that much of one. Each of our fifty States, plus the District of Columbia, register voters and run elections independently. Five of them already ran their elections primarily via mail and have done so for many years without statistically significant concerns. During COVID-19, another four states plus DC are looking at mailing out ballots to registered voters.

I can't really say what went into the decision process for mailing without applications, but I have to imagine the states that didn't historically vote by mail simply can't staff-up to process millions of new applications on that short of notice during a pandemic. The date of our general elections is carved in stone; it didn't move even during our civil war.

More info in general: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-vote-by-mail-in-every-state-11597840923

Mike@Gendan said:
Not updating the electoral register seems absurd though.
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Oh, it generally does get updated, but again with rules and procedures determined on a state-by-state or even county-by-county basis.

Sometimes certain folks try to do a little extra "updating", and those sorts of things are what get contentious.
 
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