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Thread: 2020 US Presidential Election

  1. #71
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    wow.
    that twitter thread.
    wow.
    that poll.
    wow.

  2. #72
    Ross-Tech Employee Mike R's Avatar
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    Welp, He's out of the race. You can still take that sort of stance, hell even make a poll advocating for the restrictions of firearms (not that it'd go your way) without making a fool of yourself doing so.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike R View Post
    The universities and Student Loan businesses feed off one another. The universities keep raising their rates because the Student loans keep increasing, they snow ball off of one another. To deny that is akin to denying the earth is a sphere.
    How can a student loan increase against a nonexistent number? The Unies set the prices, the loan companies dole out the cash.

  4. #74
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kawzx7 View Post
    How can a student loan increase against a nonexistent number? The Unies set the prices, the loan companies dole out the cash.
    Universities set the price based, at least in part, on how much cash is available.

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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    Drat, foiled by the dictator! :-)

  6. #76
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/u...-platform.html


    An actual plan.........but I disagree with it in some cases.......


    I don't think college should be free and I'd like to see the Government only loan money based on academic performance and not to be done further if someone is bombing out in first years party debt and it should be a 50/50 split where the recipient must be working while going to school to show responsibility or other split criteria to show the student is worthy of such debt to be incurred.

    No free ride .........
    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 07-11-2019 at 09:48 AM.
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  7. #77
    Ross-Tech Employee Mike R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack@European_Parts View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/u...-platform.html


    An actual plan.........but I disagree with it in some cases.......


    I don't think college should be free and I'd like to see the Government only loan money based on academic performance and not to be done further if someone is bombing out in first years party debt and it should be a 50/50 split where the recipient must be working while going to school to show responsibility or other split criteria to show the student is worthy of such debt to be incurred.

    No free ride .........
    The biggest problem I have with giving 100% free college is actually in the nature of accountability and limiting it only to those who actually want to strive to pursue a particular set of skills. Making it 100% free just more or less makes it an extension of high school for a lot of people who truthfully will not make good use of the time and money being put into it. If you see a great number of people who flunk out now, imagine how many people will do so if it's open to anyone and everyone, while not having a financial stake in it. Having some sort of fiscal investment in it personally serves as a motivational factor for those who go and can make good use of it, as well as serves as a deterrent for those who don't really want to get anything out of it, or are frankly unable to.

    That said, I am definitely in favor of assisting and enabling those who are ambitious and capable, so long as we can find a good way to accurately determine that. I think machine learning could be a useful asset in such a system.

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  9. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike R View Post
    The biggest problem I have with giving 100% free college is actually in the nature of accountability and limiting it only to those who actually want to strive to pursue a particular set of skills. Making it 100% free just more or less makes it an extension of high school for a lot of people who truthfully will not make good use of the time and money being put into it. If you see a great number of people who flunk out now, imagine how many people will do so if it's open to anyone and everyone, while not having a financial stake in it. Having some sort of fiscal investment in it personally serves as a motivational factor for those who go and can make good use of it, as well as serves as a deterrent for those who don't really want to get anything out of it, or are frankly unable to.

    That said, I am definitely in favor of assisting and enabling those who are ambitious and capable, so long as we can find a good way to accurately determine that. I think machine learning could be a useful asset in such a system.
    Mike: I'm always cautious when using the word "free" because the term seldom has a common understanding amongst readers - but last century, Australia had "free" tertiary education for a while and it was the principal cause for spawning a plethora of first time graduates from working-class families. My siblings and I were fortunate (and honored) to be among their number!

    As for "limiting it only to those who actually want to strive to pursue a particular set of skills" - even if there was a process for analyzing a student's intent for entering a university - I'm not sure that it's the role of educational institutions to do this. And notwithstanding my foreigner status, particularly in a litigious country like America - I'm not sure that these institutions would take-on this accountability (or does America need another reason to further line the pockets of litigators?)

    Rather than focusing on student's intent for entering universities, a more achievable and far better metric IMO is assessing the student's scholastic abilities as a rough surrogate for their capacity to complete studies. Of course, a student's academic prowess (which most definitely is not their IQ) does not equate to their willingness to apply those abilities to studies - but it is a not unreasonable decider for university entry IMO. No problem with the risk of an avalanche of unworthy students because the pass-level for entrance examinations can be tailored to the number of available places. And no problem with accusations about ethnic, or wealth discrimination because everyone is dispassionately treated the same (thereby aligning with your Mr Jefferson's credo)!

    Apart from a will of citizens to do it (thru their votes) -one of the reasons why "free" (there's that word again) university was achievable in Australia for a time was the fact that the tertiary institutions were owned and they were directly funded by Government (yes, it was rather socialist in nature - but certainly not in name). So it was simply a case of diverting a greater portion of the tax purse to this new initiative. Not sure that it would be quite this easy for America's education model?

    Don
    Last edited by DV52; 07-12-2019 at 02:16 AM.
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  11. #79
    VCDS Distributor Mike@Gendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    Mike: I'm always cautious when using the word "free" because the term seldom has a common understanding amongst readers - but last century, Australia had "free" tertiary education for a while and it was the principal cause for spawning a plethora of first time graduates from working-class families. My siblings and I were fortunate (and honored) to be among their number!

    As for "limiting it only to those who actually want to strive to pursue a particular set of skills" - even if there was a process for analyzing a student's intent for entering a university - I'm not sure that it's the role of educational institutions to do this. And notwithstanding my foreigner status, particularly in a litigious country like America - I'm not sure that these institutions would take-on this accountability (or does America need another reason to further line the pockets of litigators?)

    Rather than focusing on student's intent for entering universities, a more achievable and far better metric IMO is assessing the student's scholastic abilities as a rough surrogate for their capacity to complete studies. Of course, a student's academic prowess (which most definitely is not their IQ) does not equate to their willingness to apply those abilities to studies - but it is a not unreasonable decider for university entry IMO. No problem with the risk of an avalanche of unworthy students because the pass-level for entrance examinations can be tailored to the number of available places. And no problem with accusations about ethnic, or wealth discrimination because everyone is dispassionately treated the same (thereby aligning with your Mr Jefferson's credo)!

    Apart from a will of citizens to do it (thru their votes) -one of the reasons why "free" (there's that word again) university was achievable in Australia for a time was the fact that the tertiary institutions were owned and they were directly funded by Government (yes, it was rather socialist in nature - but certainly not in name). So it was simply a case of diverting a greater portion of the tax purse to this new initiative. Not sure that it would be quite this easy for America's education model?

    Don
    In the UK we had "free" university level education, with a points based admission system.
    As I remember it (25 years ago now), essentially you apply to a number of universities and they give you an acceptance offer - the number of A, B or C grades you had to achieve in your A-Level school leaving exams for guaranteed acceptance. You then ranked those as your 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice etc. in the system.
    (If you missed the target of your offers they would sometimes reduce their offer, or you could find alternative courses via the Clearing system).
    As this potentially meant anyone could go to uni, enrolments increased, so universities expanded and offered more and more courses and places.

    Then about 20 years ago, due to a looming funding crisis, universities were allowed to charge tuition fees direct to students, rather than local councils covering it through taxes.
    It started at 1000, and is still capped, but currently in England students can pay up to 9250 a year for tuition, so with typical courses lasting 3-5 years, just tuition can cost between 30 and 50k, before you even think about living and accommodation costs.

    This has led to a lot of university courses offering places to students with incredibly low (or non-existent) criteria for their offers as there are now more places than applicants - so we've gone from a growing system of free education to a shrinking system where admissions are largely down to whether you can afford to pay for the course, rather than whether you're academically suited to it.
    Apparently I should put something witty or profound in here...

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  13. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    Apart from a will of citizens to do it (thru their votes) -one of the reasons why "free" (there's that word again) university was achievable in Australia for a time was the fact that the tertiary institutions were owned and they were directly funded by Government (yes, it was rather socialist in nature - but certainly not in name). So it was simply a case of diverting a greater portion of the tax purse to this new initiative. Not sure that it would be quite this easy for America's education model?

    Don
    Don’t be afraid to mention Socialism. USA has many socialist programs, but they’re only socialist when the republicans say so. Farm subsidies are socialist, but don’t you go mentioning that, those republicans sponsor them.

    We should have free access to tertiary education, it’s needed badly here. Even the vets ( and my father is one) for the most part can’t cut it. And we are at peacetime! We need some help educate those with a screw loose, and many recruits I know have just that one loose. But there’s also the South, the loosest screw we have.

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