STOP START PERMANENT DELETE, ANY TIPS?

Jack@European_Parts said:

Mr. Patrick in the spirit of not arguing further and after PM I'm going to refrain from all your threads going forward and just agree to disagree.

Officially set to ignore!

Good luck with your life choices........

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Same, you’ve provided nothing of any value to me since I’ve been here, anyway.

kawzx7 said:

Simple question prefaced by the statement “I permanently disabled the stop start system on my car. Have I broken the law, or not?”

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Uh... there's many folk that might pose that as a hypothetical rather than a confession and invitation to become the test case.

There are settlement agreements on that EPA page that consist of single vehicles.

kawzx7 said:

Funny we’re talking about this, https://www.torquenews.com/1083/dis...p-start-system-legal-or-illegal#comment-79684

I told the author his opinion is based on a non answer to his direct question, and is therefore nothing but.

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The EPA's answer is legalese for "if we decide it's a problem, and it sure sounds like one, we'll advise you of our decision, via service of legal process."

jyoung8607 said:

Uh... there's many folk that might pose that as a hypothetical rather than a confession and invitation to become the test case.

There are settlement agreements on that EPA page that consist of single vehicles.

.
The EPA's answer is legalese for "if we decide it's a problem, and it sure sounds like one, we'll advise you of our decision, via service of legal process."

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You won’t be surprised to hear that I’m shaking in my boots. Ok, flip flops.

kawzx7 said:

Funny we’re talking about this, https://www.torquenews.com/1083/dis...p-start-system-legal-or-illegal#comment-79684

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“The EPA generally does not allege conduct to be illegal unless and until the agency has developed a factual basis and decided to pursue an enforcement action. To determine whether conduct amounts to illegal tampering or whether an aftermarket product is an illegal defeat device, the EPA would first need to investigate whether each element of the statutory prohibition has occurred. With regard to a start/stop system, for example, before alleging any violation the EPA would need to determine first whether the manufacturer of the vehicle in question used the start/stop system to comply with the applicable regulations concerning emissions. If so, removing that system or rendering it inoperative may amount to illegal tampering, and aftermarket parts and components that bypass, defeat, or render the system inoperative could amount to illegal defeat devices. To date, the tampering and aftermarket defeat device cases EPA has resolved have generally included the complete removal of filters and catalysts that are essential for controlling emissions of oxides of nitrogen, particulate matter, and other tailpipe pollutants.”

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Why am I not surprised at such a non-committal answer from a regulatory agency?

-Uwe-

Uwe said:

Why am I not surprised at such a non-committal answer from a regulatory agency?

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Due process of law, what a drag, right?

jyoung8607 said:

Due process of law, what a drag, right?

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Now don't get me started, Jason!

-Uwe-

There is no better use for the word moot than this subject.

IDK Uwe that's a pretty clear legal opinion and the answer is to be expected from any law enforcement agency & because, they have to qualify each event in a process, just like we diagnose cars & when assembling the puzzle we form from an auto-scan for example.
Is it illegal as the law is written, I would say it absolutely is.
Now whether any specific person purported the act, that is what an adjudication would determine and based on the evidence collected by enforcement & than handled by a prosecutor to prove a case to judge or jury.


This isn't very vague to me.

heh, their conclusion seems to just about sum up this thread.

Conclusion: Is It Against the Law To Disable Your Stop-Start System?
Our opinion is “yes, it is illegal.” Just like removing your catalytic converter or using software to over-ride an emissions control system. Will you get caught? Doubtful.

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Aside from the annoyances and legal minutia of start/stop behavior modification, I personally think you are acting selfishly and foolishly for disabling your vehicle(s) third brake light, despite any excuses or exclamations of your driving safety.

Third brake lights are not for YOU, they are for everyone behind you.

If I had a junker behind you, I'd be happy to test out your insurance company policies in that regards.

D-Dub said:

Third brake lights are not for YOU, they are for everyone behind you.

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I dunno. I the early 1980s when I was driving a 1977 Rabbit, and before third brake lights were a thing, I got rear ended on four separate occasions during my commute to/from work. None of them were particularly hard; I drove away from all of them. After the fourth time, I installed two high-mounted auxiliary brake lights, one in each corner of the window of the hatch. I didn't do it for the fools behind me, I did it for me, 'cause I was sick of gettting rear-ended, and you know what? It never happened again.

-Uwe-

D-Dub said:

heh, their conclusion seems to just about sum up this thread.



Aside from the annoyances and legal minutia of start/stop behavior modification, I personally think you are acting selfishly and foolishly for disabling your vehicle(s) third brake light, despite any excuses or exclamations of your driving safety.

Third brake lights are not for YOU, they are for everyone behind you.

If I had a junker behind you, I'd be happy to test out your insurance company policies in that regards.

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You’re right, it’s not just legal minutia, it’s legal nonexistentia.
TBL - It would be a fun test, but one a good lawyer could abate. In fact, with two legal brake lights, you’d be at fault. No, you would, yep, nope, you would, um, nope you would.

Someone point me to the stop start law, please. I’d like to read it.

kawzx7 said:

Someone point me to the stop start law, please. I’d like to read it.

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I'd be quite surprised if there's a specific start/stop law.

However, if the manufacturer (VW) used the fact that it has a start/stop system as part of the emissions certification process, then permanently disabling that system would make the car non-compliant with its emissions certification, and doing so would indeed be illegal according to the EPA's statement in the article you previously linked to. I mean an engine that isn't running inherently produces fewer emissions than one that is, right? And the emissions test cycle surely includes some simulated stopped-at-a-red-light time....

-Uwe-

all of us do illegal things.

from speeding, to not fully stopping at every stop light/sign, failing to use blinker, even whatever else beyond driving or vehicles.

except for perhaps jack, no one here cares what you do to your own personal vehicle, at least wise as long as it doesn't potentially affect the safety of you, your passengers, and your fellow motorists.

but what I expect rankles most folks, is calling something legal, that while may not or may not have specific law against it, but falls under general emissions and/or safety features imposed by law, when it is modified against the original purpose, is logically and clearly in the not legal side of the line.

peace.

Uwe said:

I'd be quite surprised if there's a specific start/stop law.

However, if the manufacturer (VW) used the fact that it has a start/stop system as part of the emissions certification process, then permanently disabling that system would make the car non-compliant with its emissions certification, and doing so would indeed be illegal according to the EPA's statement in the article you previously linked to. I mean an engine that isn't running inherently produces fewer emissions than one that is, right? And the emissions test cycle surely includes some simulated stopped-at-a-red-light time....

-Uwe-

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Hence why they gave us a cute little button to turn it off when we drive? Sounds like some serious emissions worry there. No offense to your verbiage. When’s the last time you shut your cats off or bypassed them while driving for better flow?

Doesn’t hold water, it’s a gimmick, I’m sorry.

EDIT: Wait till the first person or family is killed by this system. It’s bound to happen. Won’t be me,,

D-Dub said:

but what I expect rankles most folks, is calling something legal, that while may not or may not have specific law against it, but falls under general emissions ........ imposed by law.

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You have no proof of this. You only think you do.

kawzx7 said:

Hence why they gave us a cute little button to turn it off when we drive? Sounds like some serious emissions worry there. No offense to your verbiage. When’s the last time you shut your cats off or bypassed them while driving for better flow?

Doesn’t hold water, it’s a gimmick, I’m sorry.

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Look, I own a car with start/stop. It's had start/stop shut off via the voltage mod since a day or two after we got it. So I clearly don't care whether someone does or doesn't, and I think the same is true of just about everyone else here.

But I'm not going make dubious claims by insisting that it's legal to do so.

-Uwe-

Uwe said:

Look, I own a car with start/stop. It's had start/stop shut off via the voltage mod since a day or two after we got it. So I clearly don't care whether someone does or doesn't. But I'm not going make dubious claims by insisting that it's legal to do so.

-Uwe-

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I don’t know if I ever used the words “legal to do so” or the like, but I did say it wasn’t illegal. Call it what you will.

kawzx7 said:

I don’t know if I ever used the words “legal to do so” or the like, but I did say it wasn’t illegal. Call it what you will.

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Hmm, based on my understanding of the English language, if it isn't illegal do something, then it's legal to do that thing.

-Uwe-

^^^ hmm......... As a prelude to my confusion, I'll freely admit that I may not be the brightest penny in the purse and I'm particularly obtuse when it comes to understanding America's legal instruments for vehicle compliance (your DoT rules for car lighting is absolutely unfathomable IMHO).

So, in view of the preceeding posts - can someone explain to me how the legal (or for that matter, the ethical) prohibition for disabling Start/stop sits with VAG's inclusion of the little button in their cars that does just that (i.e. disables SS)?

If a driver of a car with SS presses the button every-time that the ignition is cycled -does she commit a misdemeanor in America?

And, if the prohibition is for another definition of "permanent" disablement - are the suite of after-market physical devices (like my design) still legal -because they allow SS to be engaged if the driver is so disposed?

And for those drivers that have an ethical problem with SS disablement and who are flooded with Catholic guilt at the mere thought of a finger approaching the native SS button - why do they buy a car that has such a facility (i.e. they thereby support a manufacturer that dabbles in heinous practices)?

Don