HEX NET - Output tests conditions not met & other restrictions

   #1  

Classik

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Hi,

Great interface but a couple of quirks for which I need some guidance. I did make a search but I didn't find the answer, so apologizes if this has been addressed before.


The car: Audi RS6 C5 Avant 2003

The interface: HEX NEXT

Devices: Android phone / laptop PC Windows 10 Home running latest VCDS soft (18.9.1 as we speak)

The symptoms:
When trying to perform an ouput test, most of the time I get a 'Conditions not met' error message BOTH on the laptop & the phone, and can't go further. However, and this is very strange: I was able to perform these output tests only twice with the laptop (sequential mode only - Never succeeded from the smartphone). My first chance occured 2 days ago when I first tried the device, and the second happened like 30 min ago. Other than that, it has been impossible to perform those tests. Of course the engine is not started and the ignition is turned on. Anything stupid I may have forgotten?


Additional question about the Cloud-only features restrictions:
It seems like I need an internet connexion everytime I need to access the 'Cloud-only' features like these output tests. Imagine I'm stuck in a place with no wifi / 4G coverage, I suppose I can't access those functions, right? Blunt question: can't we just unlock this restriction?

Many thanks in advance!
 
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jyoung8607

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The symptoms:
When trying to perform an ouput test, most of the time I get a 'Conditions not met' error message BOTH on the laptop & the phone, and can't go further. However, and this is very strange: I was able to perform these output tests only twice with the laptop (sequential mode only - Never succeeded from the smartphone). My first chance occured 2 days ago when I first tried the device, and the second happened like 30 min ago. Other than that, it has been impossible to perform those tests. Of course the engine is not started and the ignition is turned on. Anything stupid I may have forgotten?
It very much depends on what output tests you're trying to run. Some of them may be happy with the engine running, some need it off. Some of them will only be willing to run ONCE without actually starting the engine; output tests on the engine are a good example of this. You'll be prevented from running fuel injector open tests repeatedly to avoid flooding.

Bear in mind the 'Conditions not met' response isn't from VCDS, it's from the module you're talking to, something IT is unhappy about.
 
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Uwe

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The symptoms:
When trying to perform an ouput test, most of the time I get a 'Conditions not met' error message BOTH on the laptop & the phone, and can't go further. However, and this is very strange: I was able to perform these output tests only twice with the laptop (sequential mode only - Never succeeded from the smartphone). My first chance occured 2 days ago when I first tried the device, and the second happened like 30 min ago. Other than that, it has been impossible to perform those tests. Of course the engine is not started and the ignition is turned on. Anything stupid I may have forgotten?
Output test on Engine?

On engines of that vintage, it is normal that you only get one stab at it between engine starts. The ECU is programmed that way to avoid washing too much oil from the cylinder walls or even hydro-locking them. This is documented in the product manual:

* Most Control Modules will permit the Output Test Sequence to be run only one time per session. If you run the Test Sequence to completion, VCDS will allow you to return to the previous screen without closing the session, but you may not be able to run the Output Test Sequence again. If you need to run the Sequence again, manually Close the Controller and re-start the session. On some cars, you must cycle the key OFF and ON or even start the engine (to clear the cylinders of fuel).

Additional question about the Cloud-only features restrictions:
It seems like I need an internet connexion everytime I need to access the 'Cloud-only' features like these output tests. Imagine I'm stuck in a place with no wifi / 4G coverage, I suppose I can't access those functions, right? Blunt question: can't we just unlock this restriction?
No, we can't just "unlock" it because that functionality isn't in VCDS-Mobile itself, it's on the server.

-Uwe-
 
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Classik

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Many thanks for the replies & explanations. Actually I did close and restart the controller & did cycle the key off and on without success, but this engine start requirement is new information to me, thanks for pointing that out. I'll try that and report.

Now for the second question about the Cloud-only functions: well noted they are hosted on a server, but the next naive question is why not making it part of the VCDS-Mobile? If I understand correctly the PC version doesn't need access to the server, so can't it be implemented in a similar way on the mobile version? Of course I have absolutely no idea of the technical implications for this request, it's just that from a user standpoint I know I won't have always access to the net.

Thank you!
 
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Uwe

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Now for the second question about the Cloud-only functions: well noted they are hosted on a server, but the next naive question is why not making it part of the VCDS-Mobile? If I understand correctly the PC version doesn't need access to the server, so can't it be implemented in a similar way on the mobile version? Of course I have absolutely no idea of the technical implications for this request, it's just that from a user standpoint I know I won't have always access to the net.
Correct, the PC version does not need a connection to the server to do that. But a PC is just a bit more powerful than the little microcontroller in the HEX-NET. ;)

We made design decisions based on what functionality we thought was essential for someone to have "on the road" in a remote location, where no internet access is available. Reading and clearing fault codes and looking at measuring values fell into the "essential" category. Output Tests did not, because they are generally something one does in a shop, with other test equipment such as a multimeter available.

I regularly do 1000 mile (each way) road trips. I would not do it without VCDS in (in some form) along, but I do not feel I am missing anything essential if I only have my phone and a HEX-NET.

However, if you're really worried that you might need Output Tests when you're away from home, I would suggest taking a cheap Windows tablet along as well; something with an 8" - 10" screen and the full PC version of VCDS loaded on it.

-Uwe-
 
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Classik

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Thanks for taking the time to explain your approach on the matter, truly appreciated. I'm sure 99% of the time your assumptions are absolutely correct, but I suppose I represent this very odd & marginal community willing to perform some output tests in the middle of nowhere :cool:

As a workaround I could indeed try to get a small pc tablet, but if at some point you were willing to extend the mobile version features set, be sure you'll have at least one happy customer using the new function. ;)

Best
 
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PetrolDave

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However, if you're really worried that you might need Output Tests when you're away from home, I would suggest taking a cheap Windows tablet along as well; something with an 8" - 10" screen and the full PC version of VCDS loaded on it.

+1

If I'm going more than say 50 miles from home I always take my HEX-NET and W10 tablet with VCDS installed with me :thumbs:
 
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Classik

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Correct, the PC version does not need a connection to the server to do that. But a PC is just a bit more powerful than the little microcontroller in the HEX-NET. ;)

We made design decisions based on what functionality we thought was essential for someone to have "on the road" in a remote location, where no internet access is available. Reading and clearing fault codes and looking at measuring values fell into the "essential" category. Output Tests did not, because they are generally something one does in a shop, with other test equipment such as a multimeter available.

I regularly do 1000 mile (each way) road trips. I would not do it without VCDS in (in some form) along, but I do not feel I am missing anything essential if I only have my phone and a HEX-NET.

However, if you're really worried that you might need Output Tests when you're away from home, I would suggest taking a cheap Windows tablet along as well; something with an 8" - 10" screen and the full PC version of VCDS loaded on it.

-Uwe-


Good day Uwe & All,

So I'm still fighting with a fan controller, so some more output tests sessions are in order. Call it bad luck, but yesterday I had some hard time connecting to the cloud in tethered mode from my smartphone despite a good 4G coverage (got a time out message), so I had to fetch my laptop to do the job... Also I can't refrain to mention I regret not having the same GUI on my mobile as it is on my PC. Maybe I'm missed something but I couldn't find the Measuring Blocks window which I like on the PC version. I know I could sort of get the same info under the advanced measuring values, but hey, why not having the same service?

Well, I know I'm pushing my point, but just wanted to give an honest feedback that could enhance the (or at least my) experience with the product.

Best
 
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Uwe

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So I'm still fighting with a fan controller, so some more output tests sessions are in order. Call it bad luck, but yesterday I had some hard time connecting to the cloud in tethered mode from my smartphone despite a good 4G coverage (got a time out message)
Yes, there was a problem with the Cloud server yesterday.

Also I can't refrain to mention I regret not having the same GUI on my mobile as it is on my PC. Maybe I'm missed something but I couldn't find the Measuring Blocks window which I like on the PC version. I know I could sort of get the same info under the advanced measuring values, but hey, why not having the same service?
We made the GUI as similar as we thought was reasonably practical. However, by the time we started working on VCDS-Mobile, it was obvious that the "Measuring Blocks" was already a deprecated function that would never again be available any newly designed control module, so we decided not included it. As you've noted, you can get the exact same data in Advanced Measuring Values.

-Uwe-
 
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Classik

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Thank you again for taking the time to share your ideas and plans on the subject.

Although I understand your arguments regarding the Measuring Blocks, most references and suggestions on forums regarding logs & measurements are related to specific groups, like for instance timing aspects can be found on Groups 90 & 93...

I'm sure you understand I'm not trying at all to bash the product -I'm very happy with my purchase- it's just that having different GUI structure depending on the platform can be disturbing. Would that be a difficult task to keep the 'old' functions still available for the above reasons? Also it would be unfair from me to jump on the first opportunity (the cloud issue) to demonstrate the interest of having all functions available by default on the mobile version, but you would agree it would put less constraints if we could be independant from an external server/network.

Thanks for listening and best regards
 
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PetrolDave

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it's just that having different GUI structure depending on the platform can be disturbing.
AFAIK the change has been made by VAG in their firmware, so Ross-Tech have had no choice in the change.

I suspect that "mangling" the Advanced Measuring Values to behave like Measuring Blocks (or vice versa) would not be a simple process :confused:
 
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Uwe

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AFAIK the change has been made by VAG in their firmware, so Ross-Tech have had no choice in the change.
I suspect that "mangling" the Advanced Measuring Values to behave like Measuring Blocks (or vice versa) would not be a simple process :confused:
I think Classik is not referring to the lack of Measuring Blocks in UDS modules. In such a case, you are correct; the UDS protocol in their firmware plain doesn't support the old-school Measuring Blocks.

Instead, I think Classik is objecting to the fact that VCDS-Mobile doesn't support have a Measuring Blocks function on old-school control modules that do support it.

I'm not sure why this is a really a problem. VCDS-Mobile provides the same data, and labels it with the Block/Group and field numbers:

0Kftjnv.png


One of the reasons we didn't include a Measuring Blocks button to VCDS-Mobile is that we couldn't figure out how make all of this work on a phone screen (while keeping it legibly large):

measblocks01.png


So even if we had a Measuring Blocks function, the screen it took you to would be substantially different than that, and the GUI would not be the same. :eek:

-Uwe-
 
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Classik

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Thank you for the continued interest.

Indeed it's not really the GUI per se I'm referring to, I could live with a different presentation more appropriate to a smartphone (although screen size & resolution are probably much higher now). It's really about the loss of the group IDs as shown in your example above (002, 106, 115) and the abondant litterature/posts/tutorials associated to these groups. If I have an issue with my timing belt/cam chain tensionners, I can find dozen of posts pointing to the groups 090 & 093 which could help identifying the problem. Yes with the appropriate level of expertise I would find my way using the Advanced Measuring values, but not everyone is an expert so following a tutorial step by step can definitely help, and the very large majority of them are done with the 'old' interface.

At the same time I value the new presentation which gives a much clearer description of the measurements: "Coolant temperature" is obviously much nicer than "Measure group 001 / Column 2". ;)
 
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Uwe

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It's really about the loss of the group IDs as shown in your example above (002, 106, 115) and the abondant litterature/posts/tutorials associated to these groups. If I have an issue with my timing belt/cam chain tensionners, I can find dozen of posts pointing to the groups 090 & 093 which could help identifying the problem.
But the group numbers are there. In the VCDS-Mobile screen-shot above, "loc 1-1" is Group 1, field 1, and "loc 2-4" is Group 2, field 4. So just scroll down to the group you want and select the items in it. :)

-Uwe-
 
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Classik

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Ha, now that you explained it, it looks simple indeed! :o But would you agree Loc x-y doesn't spring to mind as a direct translation of Group x / Column y, particularly knowing there is so much redundancy (for good!) in the measuring blocks approach? Like in your example above "Engine load" is given in Group 2 / Column 2 AND in Group 115 / Column 2 (do we have loc 115-2 ?). Or maybe I was not clever enough, I can live with that.. :p

Anyway I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from: of course no information is lost with the new presentation, it's just about understanding people are used to the older way of presenting things, particularly when this is still alive on the PC version (please keep it that way on the PC! ;)).

But again, if I had to choose between this and an upgraded version of VCDS mobile for offline access to the advanced functions (Output Tests and the likes), my preference would go 100x for the latter.

Best
 
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