How to test Radiator Fan, Control Modle, or relay with VCDS Lite audi a4 / b6

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   #1  

bertog84

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Any VCDS experts out there that can help me diagnose my rad fans/FCM?

2003 audi a4/b6 1.8t fwd cvt

The fans are not coming on with the ac, or ever. I tested the fans and they do work when jumped with 12v and they will come on intermittently if i put the car in the on position , turn AC on LO setting, with the recirculation on. maybe once out of every 10 times.

here are the codes its pulled up so far, only one that might be related is the high pressure sensor being too high but it is kicking the clutch on the AC and i think thats more of an air-conditioning problem than a fan problem

Code:
VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Friday, 17 October 2014, 09:35:41:34439


Chassis Type: 8E - Audi A4 B6
Scan: 01,02,03,08,09,0F,11,15,16,17,18,36,37,45,46,55,56 ,57,65,67,69,75,76,77

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Controller: 8E0 909 518 AF
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0001
Coding: 0016581
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 749BD95457A3
1 Fault Found:
17887 - Brake Boost Vacuum System: Mechanical Failure
P1479 - 008 - Implausible Signal
Readiness: 0010 1001

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01J-927-156.LBL
Controller: 01J 927 156 FF
Component: V30 01J 1.8l5VT USA 3011
Coding: 01001
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 759DE4505CD9
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 8E0-614-517.LBL
Controller: 8E0 614 517 G
Component: ABS/ESP front 2328
Coding: 04279
Shop #: WSC 06435
VCID: 2C2B0134CF13
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 8E0-820-043.LBL
Controller: 8E0 820 043 K
Component: A4 Klimaautomat 1016
Coding: 00000
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 2925F820C0E1
2 Faults Found:
00735 - Potentiometer in Positioning Motor for Air recirculation Flap (G143)
30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
00819 - High Pressure Sensor (G65)
06-00 - Signal too High

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 8E0-907-279-8E2.LBL
Controller: 8E0 907 279 E
Component: int. Lastmodul USA 0305
Coding: 00013
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 341B19541723
1 Fault Found:
01502 - Bulb for Rear Fog; Left (L46)
57-00 - Electric Circuit Failure

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 8E0-959-655-84.LBL
Controller: 8E0 959 655 C
Component: Airbag 8.4EP 2000
Coding: 0010607
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 37012E580655
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 8E0-953-549.LBL
Controller: 8E0 953 549 L
Component: Lenksáulenmodul 0308
Coding: 00041
Shop #: WSC 63351
VCID: 3C0B31743F73
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 8E0-920-9xx-8E2.LBL
Controller: 8E0 920 950 L
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. RB4 D35
Coding: 02200
Shop #: WSC 05141
VCID: 32171F4CED37
WAUJC68E13A176257 AUZ6Z0B0267086
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 45: Inter. Monitor Labels: 8E0-951-177.LBL
Controller: 8E0 951 177 
Component: Innenraumueberw. 0604
Coding: 00001
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: EBA942288A9D
No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 8E0-959-433-MAX.LBL
Controller: 8E0 959 433 BB
Component: Komfortgerát T7B 1311
Coding: 11868
Shop #: WSC 05141
VCID: 7297DF4C2DB7
15 Faults Found:
01134 - Alarm Horn (H12)
29-00 - Short to Ground
01370 - Alarm triggered by Interior Monitoring
35-00 - -
00962 - Alarm via. Tilt Sensor
35-00 - -
01368 - Alarm triggered by Luggage Compartment Switch
35-00 - -
01369 - Alarm triggered by Hood Switch
35-00 - -
01374 - Alarm triggered by Terminal 15
35-00 - -
01371 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Driver's Side
35-00 - -
01572 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Passenger Side
35-00 - -
01574 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Right Rear
35-00 - -
01573 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Left Rear
35-00 - -
01802 - Door Warning Lamp; Pass Side (W36)
57-10 - Electric Circuit Failure - Intermittent
01035 - Electric Window Thermal Protection Active; Passenger
35-10 - - - Intermittent
01332 - Door Control Module; Passenger Side (J387)
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent
01561 - Left Rear Door
59-10 - Can't Unlock - Intermittent
 
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   #2  

DrPeter

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Hello,

The 2003 A4 uses a J293 - Coolant FC (Fan Control) Control Module to control the electric cooling fan, it is located above the electric fan. This controller does not have diagnostic capabilities and does not communicate with VCDS.

If you look at a wiring diagram, you will notice the ECM-(J220) does have a connection to the J293 and this is the signal wire the ECM uses to command the fan 'on', using a PWM (pulsed-width-modulated signal).

You should be able to conduct an Output Test with the ECM (key-on, engine-off). The fan should 'ramp-up' from 0 to 100% and back to 0% speed.

If the fan does not operate check the Measuring Value Block(MVB) Group 135, field 2 will show you in (%) the current fan output speed from the ECM.
MVB-137 will show you some AC system status/request info.

If the above looks okay, check the fuses:
S4(5amp) = Located on the left side of dash
S42(40/60amp) = Located above relay panel in dash

If they are okay, you will need to check the signal from the ECM to the J293, use of an oscilloscope is the preferred way. You maybe able to see some voltage on a DVOM, set to AC voltage, but that is only RMS voltage.

If there is no ECM signal, check the wiring to J293 from the ECM, should be the red/white wire.


And if you have voltage in, signal in and the fan powers-up, it sounds like the J293 has failed.

Hope that helps,

drpeter
 
   #3  

Jack@European_Parts

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Your engine ecu needs a firmware update..........

Are you also sure your viscous isn't damaged...........if supported because that is a mechanical device?

That would also explain high PSI in the ac from inadequate cooling.

If the outside ambient temp sensor is reporting an incorrect low temp..........such as -40C this will also force the AC and fans to INOP or sporadic.
In many cases there will be no error for it.

Be sure to log it.
 
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   #4  

bertog84

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Very detailed thank you! I will try this later on the afternoon and update the post
 
   #5  

bertog84

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Your engine ecu needs a firmware update..........

Are you also sure your viscous isn't damaged...........if supported because that is a mechanical device?

That would also explain high PSI in the ac from inadequate cooling.

If the outside ambient temp sensor is reporting an incorrect low temp..........such as -40C this will also force the AC and fans to INOP or sporadic.
In many cases there will be no error for it.

Be sure to log it.

How can i update the firmware of the ECU or any other modules in the car with the VCDS-Lite?
 
   #6  

Uwe

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How can i update the firmware of the ECU or any other modules in the car with the VCDS-Lite?
You cannot. VCDS does not do control module firmware updates.

-Uwe-
 
   #8  

bertog84

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Hello,

The 2003 A4 uses a J293 - Coolant FC (Fan Control) Control Module to control the electric cooling fan, it is located above the electric fan. This controller does not have diagnostic capabilities and does not communicate with VCDS.

If you look at a wiring diagram, you will notice the ECM-(J220) does have a connection to the J293 and this is the signal wire the ECM uses to command the fan 'on', using a PWM (pulsed-width-modulated signal).

You should be able to conduct an Output Test with the ECM (key-on, engine-off). The fan should 'ramp-up' from 0 to 100% and back to 0% speed.

If the fan does not operate check the Measuring Value Block(MVB) Group 135, field 2 will show you in (%) the current fan output speed from the ECM.
MVB-137 will show you some AC system status/request info.

If the above looks okay, check the fuses:
S4(5amp) = Located on the left side of dash
S42(40/60amp) = Located above relay panel in dash

If they are okay, you will need to check the signal from the ECM to the J293, use of an oscilloscope is the preferred way. You maybe able to see some voltage on a DVOM, set to AC voltage, but that is only RMS voltage.

If there is no ECM signal, check the wiring to J293 from the ECM, should be the red/white wire.


And if you have voltage in, signal in and the fan powers-up, it sounds like the J293 has failed.

Hope that helps,

drpeter

thank you very much, so i tested the output test and the fan did not start to ramp up, i have seen it to that in the past intermittently as stated on my original post, when the key is on and the ac is set to the highest settings

i checked the MVB
group 135, engine was cold 30C, and i had a load of 83%
group 137 with AC set on HI Load went all the way to 98% with an absolute pressure of 27.6bar and i could see in field 2 the compressor switching on then off

the fan did not come on at all, i logged the groups for a few minutes and again the engine was cold
How do the loads work and at what percentage are they suppose to trigger the fans on?

when referring to the fuses
s4, does that mean slot 4? it was a 5amp but labeled as a brake pump fuse on the sticker
and s42 I'm not not sure where you are referring to please advise

Thank you for your help and the vcds tool is pretty cool to use, even though in pulling out my hair trying to diagnose this darn thing it is kinda fun to use.
 
   #9  

bertog84

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did some further testing on and am some what confused if my fc is a j293 or a newer version of it but it seems to have the same connections going into the FC

im not sure i have a J293 FC, mine is audi part number 8e0 959 501 ag
when i google the two they seem different, the 8e0 959 501 ag has a 4 wire whip with a harness then another group of wires that are hard wired to the fan, they j293 has two harnesses with clips

from doing some more research, the 4 wire harness coming from the ECM to the FC has 2 thick gauge wires and two thin wires
thick
brown - ground
Red/Blue- constant 12v from fuse S42

thin
red/white- acc 12v from fuse S4
red/gray - Signal

With VCDS running both groups I have
135 30 celcius/11% load
137 ac low/comp off/ 6.8 bar/ 0% load

Im getting 12v power at both the constat and the acc
and the signal wire is alternates from 1.0 to 0.3 on a volt meter on AC setting

Also noticing that the ACC stays on after the key is removed as well as the signal wire readings for almost exactly 15 minutes, i tested this twice
when power to the ACC is finally gone, the signal wire also does not put out any readings, and I also lost the communication from the VCDS to the ecm ( you can hear a relay click)

I think its safe to say i need to replace the FC,

anyone have good or bad success with oem's vs aftermarket?
 
   #10  

DrPeter

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anyone have good or bad success with oem's vs aftermarket?


- I have an Audi A3, I replaced the small fan with an aftermarket one, it worked for about 1 month, I had it warrantied and also replaced the large fan with controller at the same time I installed the second (warrantied) small fan and to date they are both fine, been two months now.

- It is hit or miss with aftermarket parts, sometimes that is even true with the OEM parts from the dealerships. Many times you will find the same exact part being sold by the vendor for Audi/VW, these parts usually will not have the Audi/VW logos on them, but most of the time they are the same part, just sold to aftermarket parts suppliers and not the dealership's parts departments.

- If you do not mind doing the job twice (maybe) and want to save a little bit of money, then a good brand name aftermarket part can work just fine, make sure it has at least a 1 year warranty.

Important note: I would stay away from the 'super, super' cheep copies/clone parts, if you do not, you might just get a 'shoddy fan controller casing full of used pinball machine parts.'

Hope this helps,

drpeter
 
   #11  

verrilli

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Hello,
I'm posting here because it seems related to the problem I'm having.

2003 A4, AMB. New fans, new J293 fan control module.
My fans are coming on and working fine while the car is running.
The problem is, 15 minutes after the car is shut off, the fans come on full blast and drain the battery.
I checked the J293 connector outputs.
Just after the car is turned off, the acc is at +12 and the signal wire is 5Hz with duty cycle of 11%.
After 15 minutes, the acc goes to 0V but the signal wire is at 50mV DC. Is this correct???
Is 50mV enough to make the fan come on?
If I unplug the J293 and replug, then the fan does not come back on.

I have checked the ECU box and it's as dry as a bone.

The fans operate fine with the DCVS output test. Also when the car is running, I can see the temps increasing on the VCDS up to the point where the fans finally come on (17% utilization). Then they cycle off and on.

Any help would be appreciated.
Colin
 
   #12  

Jack@European_Parts

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Sounds like a radiator or temp fan switch faulty or corroded.
If it sees the value to call for cool down.......... it will switch the fan module.

A quick review of WD will help you understand the circuit.
A bad ground can cause a lift of J293 to engage fan...........

Please post your full auto-scan
 
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   #13  

verrilli

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Sounds like a radiator or temp fan switch faulty or corroded.
If it sees the value to call for cool down.......... it will switch the fan module.

A quick review of WD will help you understand the circuit.
A bad ground can cause a lift of J293 to engage fan...........

Please post your full auto-scan

I'm posting the auto-scan below. This is taken after the fan full-on after the 15 minutes delay.
When you say faulty radiator or temp fan switch, which do you mean? I'm familiar with the one on the bottom pipe of the radiator. This seems to be working fine as I can see the radiator outlet temp on the VCDS rising steadily with the oil temp.
Where is the temp fan switch? How do I test that with the VCDS?
Also where can I find the WD? I do have a one-page that shows j293, S4, S42 although I can't locate S4 or S42. Do you know where they are?

Code:
VCDS Version: Release 15.7.0 (x64) Running on Windows 7 x64
Data version: 20150729
www.Ross-Tech.com

Tuesday,04,August,2015,21:06:43:37593

Chassis Type: 8E (8E - Audi A4/S4/RS4 B6/B7 (2001 > 2008))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 0F 11 15 16 17 18 25 36 37 45 46 55 56 57 65
          67 69 75 76 77
 
VIN: WAULC68E13A154719   Mileage: 270350km-167987miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 06B-909-518-AMB.lbl
   Part No SW: 8E0 909 518 AF    HW: 8E0 909 018 A
   Component: 1.8L R4/5VT     G   0001  
   Coding: 0016751
   Shop #: WSC 63351 000 00000
   VCID: 74E7161D1429F69E42-5140

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0110 0101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 927 156 P
   Component: AG5 01V 1.8l5VT USA 0910  
   Coding: 0001002
   Shop #: WSC 63351 000 00000
   VCID: 3B75FD2179F779E643-5140

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 8E0-614-517.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 614 517 H
   Component: ABS/ESP allrad      2328  
   Coding: 04277
   Shop #: WSC 12345  
   VCID: 2D51C379E783E756CD-5124

1 Fault Found:
01826 - Sensor for Steering Angle (G85); Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
            35-10 -  -  - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC        Labels: 8E0-820-043.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 820 043 L
   Component:   A4 Klimaautomat   1016  
   Coding: 00000
   Shop #: WSC 63351  
   VCID: 2A5BC865D66DF06E28-515E

4 Faults Found:
00710 - Defroster Flap Positioning Motor (V107) 
            41-10 - Blocked or No Voltage - Intermittent
00727 - Potentiometer in Positioning Motor for Defrost Flap (G135) 
            30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
01810 - Actuating Motor for Temperature Flap; Right (V159) 
            41-10 - Blocked or No Voltage - Intermittent
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
            41-10 - Blocked or No Voltage - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect.        Labels: 8E0-907-279-8E2.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 907 279 E
   Component: int. Lastmodul  USA 0305  
   Coding: 00003
   Shop #: WSC 63351  
   VCID: 3467D61D04A9B69E82-4B1A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 8E0-959-655-84.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 959 655 C
   Component: Airbag 8.4EP        2000  
   Coding: 0010607
   Shop #: WSC 63351 000 00000
   VCID: 377DE11145DF5D86A7-515E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel        Labels: 8E0-953-549.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 953 549 L
   Component: Lenksáulenmodul     0308  
   Coding: 00041
   Shop #: WSC 63351  
   VCID: 3C77FE3D2CF97EDE4A-4B1A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 8E0-920-9xx-8E2.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 920 950 L
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. RB4 D35  
   Coding: 03200
   Shop #: WSC 09211  
   VCID: 326BD005FEBDB8AE90-5140
   WAULC68E13A154719     AUZ6Z0B0187480

1 Fault Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
            53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 45: Inter. Monitor        Labels: 8E0-951-177.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 951 177 
   Component: Innenraumueberw.   0604  
   Coding: 00001
   Shop #: WSC 00000  
   VCID: 6BD50D611917296693-5140

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 8E0-959-433-MAX.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 959 433 BB
   Component: Komfortgerát T7B    1311  
   Coding: 11788
   Shop #: WSC 63351  
   VCID: 72EB10053E3DF8AE50-4B00

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 8E1959801
   Component: Tõrsteuer.FS BRM 0002  

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 8E1959802E
   Component: Tõrsteuer.BF BRM 0002  

   Subsystem 3 - Part No: 8E0959801A
   Component: Tõrsteuer.HL BRM 0002  

   Subsystem 4 - Part No: 8E0959802A
   Component: Tõrsteuer.HR BRM 0002  

7 Faults Found:
01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393) 
            53-10 - Supply Voltage Too Low - Intermittent
01134 - Alarm Horn (H12) 
            29-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
01134 - Alarm Horn (H12) 
            49-00 - No Communications
01370 - Alarm triggered by Interior Monitoring 
            35-00 -  - 
00955 - Key 1 
            35-10 -  -  - Intermittent
01561 - Rear left door 
            59-10 - Can't Unlock - Intermittent
01562 - Rear right door 
            59-10 - Can't Unlock - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio        Labels: 8E0-035-1xx-56.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 035 195 F
   Component: symphony II NP2    0051   
   Coding: 01001
   Shop #: WSC 08102  
   VCID: 2A5BC865D66DF06E28-4EB2

3 Faults Found:
00858 - Connection; Radio Intermediate Frequency (IF) Output to Antenna Amplifier 
            36-00 - Open Circuit
00878 - Connection to Speaker Front Left 
            36-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
00879 - Connection to Speaker Front Right 
            36-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 07:49)--------------------------
 
   #14  

DrPeter

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Hello,

Where is the temp fan switch? How do I test that with the VCDS?
Also where can I find the WD? I do have a one-page that shows j293, S4, S42 although I can't locate S4 or S42. Do you know where they are?

You can find Factory Wiring Diagrams sources links here .... Official Factory Repair Information

Take a look at the following Measuring Value Blocks and use the mouse over pop-ups in the fields to 'see' the extra data to determine if any of these values are out of range or indicate an error:

131,1,Engine Outlet,Temp. (actual)
131,2,Engine Outlet,Temp. (specified)
131,3,Radiator Outlet,Temperature

132,2,Temp. Difference,Engine/Radiator
132,4,Cooling Status

135,1,Radiator Outlet,Temperature
135,2,Fan 1 Activation,Duty Cycle,Range: 0.0...100.0 %

137,3,A/C-Pressure
137,4,Fan Request,from A/C-System


Be sure the A/C pressure is normal when the A/C is off, about 5-7bar, and the request from the A/C controller is low.

Let us know what you find in the MVBs and/or what was the cause(if found ;) ), hope this helps,


ps... Fuse S42 is on the fuse/relay holder below Instrument panel on the driver side
and fuse S4 is on the fuse holder on the side of the dash panel, drivers side.



drpeter
 
   #15  

verrilli

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Hello,
Take a look at the following Measuring Value Blocks and use the mouse over pop-ups in the fields to 'see' the extra data to determine if any of these values are out of range or indicate an error:

131,1,Engine Outlet,Temp. (actual)
131,2,Engine Outlet,Temp. (specified)
131,3,Radiator Outlet,Temperature

132,2,Temp. Difference,Engine/Radiator
132,4,Cooling Status

135,1,Radiator Outlet,Temperature
135,2,Fan 1 Activation,Duty Cycle,Range: 0.0...100.0 %

137,3,A/C-Pressure
137,4,Fan Request,from A/C-System


Be sure the A/C pressure is normal when the A/C is off, about 5-7bar, and the request from the A/C controller is low.

ps... Fuse S42 is on the fuse/relay holder below Instrument panel on the driver side
and fuse S4 is on the fuse holder on the side of the dash panel, drivers side.

Thanks for the reply.

Here are the measurement blocks just before I turned off the car.
Code:
                Address 01: Engine  (8E0 909 518 AF)

20:40:48 Group 134: Engine Cooling (Temperatures)
  94.0°C  Oil Temperature 
  27.0°C  Ambient Temperature
  45.0°C  Intake Air Temperature (G42)
  102.0°C  Engine Outlet Temperature

20:40:48 Group 135: Engine Cooling (Fan Activation)
  90.0°C  Radiator Outlet Temperature
  17.3 %  Fan 1 Activation Duty Cycle
       
       

20:40:48 Group 137: Engine Cooling (Air Condition Requirements)
  A/C-Low  A/C Readiness 
  Compr.OFF  A/C Compressor 
  7.0 bar  A/C-Pressure 
  0.0 %  Fan Request from A/C-System
They also seemed to be in range as the car was warming up - the temperatures gradually increasing.

Regarding S4 and S42, how do I identify those fuses in those locations?

What component would you suspect at this point? Or are there further tests I can do?

Colin
 
   #16  

Jack@European_Parts

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102.0°C Engine Outlet Temperature <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< This!

Check the ECT and AC HP switch values.

WD can be had here.

www.erwin.audi.com
 
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   #17  

verrilli

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   #18  

Jack@European_Parts

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Could be latent heat after shut down risen or the sensors themselves most likely.

However....... the tracks must be inspected for corrosion.

Is this car modified or have recent programming taken place?

Sometimes improper programming or faulty ground to engine ecu or bad ecu will lift the J293 to activate.
 
   #19  

verrilli

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Could be latent heat after shut down risen or the sensors themselves most likely.

However....... the tracks must be inspected for corrosion.

Is this car modified or have recent programming taken place?

Sometimes improper programming or faulty ground to engine ecu or bad ecu will lift the J293 to activate.

The car has not been modified or reprogrammed.
The ECT (rear of engine) was just replaced with factory part.
Where is the ECU grounded? At the center of the apron?
 
   #20  

Jack@European_Parts

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The ground points can be verified in the repair manual for locations.

www.erwin.audi.com

You have no faults.....and you don't have readiness achieved.

Please preform readiness tests.........then repost full scan.
 
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