S6 C5 v8 4.2 Lumpy/Exhaust burbles (not good)

   #1  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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OK so following introductory thread
Code:
http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?14396-Greenish-VCDS-user-needing-some-assistance-in-usage
...hope I got that right and yes it was an opening intro/get verified ...

I have the following problem.

slight hesitation sluggish/shudder often at low-ish revs - flutter - misfire?
smell of petrol/fuel/gas omn start up
visible exhaust fumes on cold start up at cold winter temps (I'm in Grenoble- french alps - cold winters -5/7C - 23/19F and lower when up mountain.)
Exhaust blow/backfire whoosing..at lowish revs
Poor power / loss performance + increased fuel consumption.
See previous post for more symptoms and more service history.

Updates on what I;ve done since initial post.
1) Fixed SAI - Manifold Intake Arms - mauvais surprise with French Customs - Gruven Parts came with import duty to pay//grr...
2) Changed Air Filter
3) Fixed visible (broken or frayed) vacuum lines - several..
4) cleared DTC errors.
5) restarted and got a CEL!!

VCDS Log attached below...

Code:
Monday,04,June,2018,20:50:26:10427
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 18.2.1.2 (x64)
Data version: 20180518 DS287.1
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: WAUZZZ4B62N115654   License Plate: S6
Mileage: 136630km-84897mi   Repair Order: Post SAI Lik Arm 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 4B (4B - Audi A6/S6/RS6/allroad C5 (1998 > 2005))
Scan: 01 02 03 06 08 15 16 17 18 22 34 35 36 37 45 55 56 57 65 67
          75 76 77
 
VIN: WAUZZZ4B62N115654   Mileage: 136630km-84897miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: Redir Fail!
   Part No: 4D0 907 559 AB
   Component: 4.2L V8/5V      G   0002  
   Coding: 10752
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 6ED469712ABFBE34C5-515E
   WAUZZZ4B62N115654     AUZ7Z0B2053758

6 Faults Found:
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
            P0300 - 35-00 - 
16685 - Cylinder 1 
            P0301 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16689 - Cylinder 5 
            P0305 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16688 - Cylinder 4 
            P0304 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16687 - Cylinder 3 
            P0303 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16686 - Cylinder 2 
            P0302 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 01L-927-156.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 927 156 ET
   Component: AG5 01L 4.2l5V  RdW 1011  
   Coding: 00001
   Shop #: WSC 00000  
   VCID: 7DF65E3D77D9D5AC4C-515E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 4B0-614-517.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 614 517 E
   Component: ABS/ESP allrad      1728  
   Coding: 06397
   Shop #: WSC 00000  
   VCID: 23424845B1FD435C1A-5140

1 Fault Found:
01119 - Gear Recognition Signal 
            35-10 -  -  - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC        Labels: 4B0-820-043-MY2.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 820 043 AD
   Component: A6-Klimavollautomat 0105  
   Coding: 00000
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 5CB033B9CC033CA41B-258C

1 Fault Found:
01592 - Air Quality Sensor (G238) 
            37-00 - Faulty

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 4B0-959-655-AI84.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 959 655 M
   Component: Airbag 8.4E         5003  
   Coding: 0000406
   Shop #: WSC 02325 785 00200
   VCID: 3A7C95217677229429-517C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 4B0-920-xxx-17.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 920 933 Q
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. VDO D10  
   Coding: 01183
   Shop #: WSC 05460  
   VCID: 316EB20DFB01E1CC98-517C
   WAUZZZ4B62N115654     AUZ7Z0B2053758

2 Faults Found:
01300 - Control Module for Navigation with CD-Rom (J401) 
            49-00 - No Communications
01304 - Radio 
            49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 35: Centr. Locks        Labels:. 4B0-962-258.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 962 258 K
   Component: Zentralverrieg.,DWA D35  
   Coding: 07019
   Shop #: WSC 06520  
   VCID: 316EB20DFB01E1CC98-4F3C

7 Faults Found:
01366 - Opened Due to Crash Signal 
            35-00 -  - 
01370 - Alarm triggered by Interior Monitoring 
            35-00 -  - 
00956 - Key 2 
            09-10 - Adaptation Limit Surpassed - Intermittent
01561 - Rear left door 
            61-10 - Won't De-Safe - Intermittent
01134 - Alarm Horn (H12) 
            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent
01134 - Alarm Horn (H12) 
            76-10 - Terminal 30 missing - Intermittent
01134 - Alarm Horn (H12) 
            77-10 - Internal Supply Voltage - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 45: Inter. Monitor        Labels: 4B0-951-178.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 951 178 A
   Component: Innenraumueberw.    D04  
   Coding: 00102
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 26445151C2CFB6747D-515E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 55: Headlight Range        Labels: 4Z7-907-357.lbl
   Part No: 4Z7 907 357 
   Component: dynamische LWR       D07  
   Coding: 00050
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 04002BD91433A46403-4BB0

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 57: TV Tuner        Labels: 4D0-919-146.clb
   Part No: 4D0 919 146 B
   Component: TV Tuner        H05 0704  
   Coding: 0000010
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   VCID: 28585F6998DBA0044F-517C

1 Fault Found:
00861 - Connection to Navigation Computer 
            011 - Open Circuit

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 76: Park Assist        Labels: 8Z0-919-283.lbl
   Part No: 8Z0 919 283 
   Component: Parkingsyst. A6 RDW D08  
   Coding: 01156
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 020C2DC10E27AA5431-517C

No fault code found.

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 05:34)-------------------------

So now I've cleared these codes..

And after start up and engien running with a few revs..
I ran the measuring blocks option/log with following:
Code:
onday,04,June,2018,21:30:55:10427
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 18.2.1.2 (x64)
Data version: 20180518 DS287.1
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN:    License Plate: S6
Mileage:    Repair Order: post dtc link arm clear lumpy



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 01: Engine       Labels: Redir Fail!
Control Module Part Number: 4D0 907 559 AB
  Component and/or Version: 4.2L V8/5V      G   0002
           Software Coding: 10752
            Work Shop Code: WSC 02325  
           Additional Info: WAUZZZ4B62N115654     AUZ7Z0B2053758
                      VCID: 6ED469712ABFBE34C5-517C
2 Faults Found:

16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
            P0300 - 35-00 - 
16689 - Cylinder 5 
            P0305 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected

Readiness: 0110 1101

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: DTCs cleared

Now .. as I'm no expert I'm wondering...since my ECU doesnt support dynamic logging for misfires..
Does this mean my coilpack in cylinder 5 is fubared or did I make a massive jump/ass ump shun?
I'm green so help me.. what should I be measuring.
I'm happy to log ALL the groups that I get values for.. but I just don't know what to measure.

FWIW (not quantifiable) but I got the impression that post DTC error clear.. (still lumpy) but less backfire and less exhaust pops//) keen to trobleshoot this.
Do I buy a pair of coil packs (with a view to replacing all 8 as these are to my knowledge OEM and factory fittednever changed (ie 18 years old?) Can I troubleshoot coil pack or is it try it and test?
Any reccomendations on coilpack brand (not intrested in R8 visual bling bling..just needs to work and be OEM spec)
Just need some sensible engineering head to direct me to next steps.

(Hope I'm making Jacks diagnostic report criteria)

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

S6 Brit in French Alpine Foothills..
 
   #2  

Jack@European_Parts

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Check to see if the DTC will move by swapping plug and coil to alternate cylinder and observe vacuum leaks by watching trims.

Are you sure no 0x01-08-014,015,016?
 
   #3  

Larry Manton

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C5 guy, back fire is classic of lean burn or out of time, sounds lean in this case. As Jack stated he was looking @ intake leaks, also this does now seem to be in just one bank, would be interesting to see if that bank is leaner than other not only from intake fubar but 02 sensor skewed input.

Also when were the plugs changed as # 5 might be the weakest of the bunch and can't handle the stress of lean burn. Numerous issues could be causing this including injection but at least you are down to focus on one jug, Good luck.

Larimore.
 
   #4  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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@ Jack.. I need to decipher (understand) your comments - sorry my bad - I'm not quite sure what "observe vacuum leaks by watching trims" means (or how to do that).
In ref to - 0x01-08-014,015,016? - thats the values returned from groups 10-19 Ignition Misfire ..
Uwe replied in my initial introductory post that its likely that my EU S6 C5 ECU doesnt support these misfire detection codes/interogation.
http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?14396-Greenish-VCDS-user-needing-some-assistance-in-usage
I havent got any values in the fields (where I'd expect - ie 14/15/16 which should cover both banks and all 8 Cylinders!

@ Larimore - thanks for your suggestions.. I'm ruling out sparks for the moment. I replaced ALL 8 last year (15 months ago at most) and they were OEM and NGK spec. It is possible that one is faulty - I'm waiting to get the time to see if the (swap/change coilpack) on cylinder 5 has any significant effect or simply shifts the issue (or is unchanged). In troubleshooting - this might suggest an injector/injection issue..

I may be clutching at straws but under moderate load (although some sense of loss of power) in "normal" urban traffic the car seems fine - but with 300+ bhp its hard to tell if I'm just getting "7" cylinders worth so to speak. I sense I need to be measuring something else!?
I'm sesnsing this is what you're suggesting on intake and leaks.. sorry I'm not quite there!

..C5 guy. (like the handle you gave me!)..!
 
   #5  

Jack@European_Parts

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Uwe replied in my initial introductory post that its likely that my EU S6 C5 ECU doesnt support these misfire detection codes/interogation

What am I to do a case history on you?
Maybe have the superior emission diagnostics used of a second USA controller installed as a "test device" in the car & to get access to the misfire detection?


I'm not quite sure what "observe vacuum leaks by watching trims" means (or how to do that).

Watch trims in VCDS and induce/crimp off leaks or use sprays/propane that would alter the outcome in that bank & if false air sucked in FOD agents.

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...gases-and-vacuum-amp-so-should-you!-Air-leaks!

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...N-PUMPS-(LDP)-Prepare-for-BIFURCATION!-TEST-S!

Compression check?
 
   #8  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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Jack my apologies and sorry as I had not meant to offend with my post/comment (and certaintly didnt/dont expect to merit case history).. I started trying to troublehoot what I suspected is a misfireor some related issues (injection?). I sought to get data from the advanced blocks 14-16 as I thought this was the key..and my first foray into VCDS (proper) other than autoscans which had sufficed until now. I guess other EU C5 S6 owners have already sussed they cant get misfire detection from VCDS..as I said I'm green and have a lot to learn - I'm no mechanic and I have few tools but patience and will do my best to approach things logically and follow the "process" ..just seeking some pointers - so again aplogies if this can across wrong or arrogant - certainly not meant to..
I've started on the air thing (probably read in your posts somewhere of doing some basics and thats what got me onto sorting SAI + replacing sections of tube that were worn or frayed..and take the point I probably need to be clinical and methodical on this point and check all the tubes. As it happens I'm somewhat stuck - wife crashed her car last Friday and I've only just got mine back (half functioning) with the link arm/actuator valves done last night. I haven't had the chance to get down to my parts place (which is also a challenge language wise for me!).
Most garages round here wont touch 1 An Audi 2 A petrol engine 3 A V8..and the fact its 18 years old they just dont want to know. Last "specialist" charged me €75 just to read codes and wouldnt even provide a print out. - that was when I bought the cable! Anyways appreciate your experience and advice - seems like I have some work/reading to do and appreciate the pointers..
C5 guy
 
   #9  

Jack@European_Parts

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Hey sorry for your dilemma.

I am always happy to help.

These basic mechanical tests have to be done and reading these threads will indeed help you.

Consider a second controller for the enhanced diagnostics & then to be used for a tuned unit or sold later etc.

Go do tests and if you run into an issue, ask a question based on that test....no magic answers!
 
   #10  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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Not so much progress but mini update - have replaced more vacuum tubing and checking the joins.
Filled up with hi grade fuel (98RON) and ensured petrol cap fits well.
Checked Oil Cap / suction and took off to verify effect when running (dip in revs/impacts timing (poor) so asuume that this oil cap is good (OEM vented).
DAFT Question but to verify Bank 1 (Cylinders 1-thru 4) is located on LEFT when looking at the car (standing in front of car looking back at it). 1 is at the front by radiator and adjacent to Airbox
And therefore Bank 2 is RHS (Right) and so Cylinders 5 thru 8 are on this side.
5 is nearest the radiator and 8 will be just by the coolant expansion tank.
Can someone kindly confirm I got this right (and not muddled up the order/numbering!) many thanks - I've tried to confirm on various tech sheets (SSP Audi trainings etc) but cant confirm..

Also want to finish sorting any possible vaccum leaks before getting into above testing...need 3.5 mm tubing!
Thanks
C5 guy
 
   #11  

Jack@European_Parts

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The RTFB will show you a bank ref in WD or use VCDS as your guide by unplugging sensors on the side you verify and then go observe faults you induced.

This is provided your stack in flash isn't modified with miss assigned trouble code tables......... :rolleyes:
 
   #12  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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Just a mini-update: managed to find some suitable 4mm tubing to completely renew the vacuum hoses.
Maybe it's just me (and limited language skills) but going to auto parts shops here in France seems hit and miss... I tried 3-4 places where I explained I was after 3.5/4mm vacuum hose - (silicone/"durite") and either they didnt do this size or it was to soft (washer jet hose). I settled for sime fuel line which is flexible/maleable and can withstand -30 to 125C.hoping this will be sufficient. I also bought small jubilee clips to create a proper / tight seal. I have seen enough of the old tubing to know its old and tired. Just hoping I can reach everywhere and renew this before getting into pressure testing and the mechanical tests suggested above.

Whilst at a newly found place (I saw a delivery van to a garagiste) and went there.. a bit out of the way but seems local garages use them .. I asked for a price for a replacement N80.
Seeing the old one looks OEM/original supplied and as I will be doing EVAP later on (and as everythings shut on Sat and Sun) I thought I'd get it for 24€.. preemptive/preventative.
I'll see how I get on
Update in due course.

C5 Guy
 
   #13  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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OK so some mixed results..
I've managed to replace the vacuum hoses from the N112 Valve all forward from here to the two intersections and to the manifold actuators. This has taken some time - as I've also tidied up and used jubilee clips to ensure a very tight/secure fit. I've modified a rubber/O ring to fit around the pipe that connects the SAI pipe in the Air box (bottom) I had noticed this had perished.
I've not changed the N80 yet and I have not replaced the vacuum hoses bacl from the T junction behind the N112 - there are 2 hoses that connect to the Combination valve on each cylinder bank as I have run out of pipe and jubilee clips and also I cant actually see them without taking some other parts out (expansion bottle on oneside and pipework near MAF and Airbox / Intake on other).
Needing one working car - wife's car is off road in storage as she crashed it last friday and the insurance/garage is still sorting this - I had some errands to do/taxi-ing children...checked progress of work with VCDS.

I was surprised to see:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No: 4D0 907 559 AB
Component: 4.2L V8/5V G 0002
Coding: 10752
Shop #: WSC 02325
VCID: 6ED469712ABFBE34C5-517C
WAUZZZ4B62N115654 AUZ7Z0B2053758

1 Fault Found:
17819 - Secondary Air Injection System; Bank 2
P1411 - 35-10 - Insufficient Flow - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

I've cleared the codes.
I've also looked at some of the values I thought I couldnt measure.

I looked at the possibility of a 2nd ECU but quickly realised this is not viable (at least for me).

I checked groups below:
10:22:35 Group 017
0 Count
0 Count
Bin. Bits
Enabled

10:22:35 Group 015
0 Count
0 Count
0 Count
Enabled

10:22:35 Group 016
0 Count
0 Count
0 Count
Enabled

So it looks like the ECU can support misfire detection.
I noticed it didnt record any whilst I gently revved..(and in fairness I'm not getting the misfire/lumpyness and backfire from exhaust )

I also recorded group 32 as below:
10:19:00 Group 032
-1.5 % Lambda
0.8 % Lambda
-0.9 % Lambda
2.3 % Lambda

I havent any values prior to this repair (vacuum hoses and actuator arms).
My sense is that the problem is not entirely fixed. There's something still not right with low revs/gentle acceleration - it feels like something is out of sync. I also suspect that I've damaged the cats/exhaust.

So next steps... will install the N80 - why not . I need to remove some of the MAF pipework from the airbox to get to the vacuum hose at cyclinder bank/multivalve.
Once I have 100% good vacuum then I can test methodically.
Reading Jacks previous posts - its got me wondering if i have perhaps some sticking seals/oil leaks playimg into the mix.
There are a few areas that show signs of oil leaks..just wondering how far this might go.
Any pointers for next steps, specific items to measure - I have limited equipment?

Thanks
 
   #15  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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So brief update ..still not fixed.
I have changed the N80 - pretty quick sfter snipping the OEM retaining bands/clips.
I had also ordered a new CoilPack. I took some advice on brands from a mechanic friend who advised either NGK's or Beru.
I found BERU at circa 40€ delivered so I had this and fitted it after the usual wiggling to get the D connectors off. The Coilpacks look OEM (Hitachi) white square faced. I pulled cylinder 5 which had reported a misfire ages back and replaced it with the BERU.
To be honest not a significant difference and yesterday on a longer run - we had some family stuff to do..I had the car out for a reasonable run.
Still noisey and hesitant/underpowered at low revs. Not so noticeable at hi.

Pulled some 032 readings (cold start)



09:56:44 Group 032
-1.9 % Lambda (old -1.5 %)
2.3 % Lambda (old 0.8 %)
-1.5 % Lambda (old -0.9 %
1.6 % Lambda (old 2.3%)

..I'm getting confused with these..values 1 and 3 have increased in -% its the values for fields 2 and 4 that concern me.

Q - does this indicate a possible MAF (sensor issue).

Taken fromhttp://www.ross-tech.net/vag-com/advertising/DiagnosingA_MAF_TechTip.pdf http://www.ross-tech.net/vag-com/advertising/DiagnosingA_MAF_TechTip.pdf
"When a MAF is failing, the additive fuel
trim will normally be within spec, but the multiplicative trim will be
a positive value outside the specifications.

Thats values 1 and 2 if I read right.

In order to "test" - if I pull the sensor/cable - will this cause an issue? I am assuming it might throw some codes? But am I in danger of breaking something else?
(the objective is to see whether it runs rougher with no MAF sensor? Is this a realistic test?) not sure I want to spring for a new MAf without some testing/evidence its not working (as it should)

Do I need to do a run (with a willing laptop holder!?) using group 002 to get MAF values?
Sorry if it sounds daft but red line in 2nd (in triptronic)? How?
Do I just accelerate hard through 1st and 2nd in S mode? and let the VCDS log results?

Sorry for the dumb questions but I don't want to do something silly! Appreciate any advice/comments?


C5Guy
 
   #16  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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..I've just realised I hadnt cleared from block/measuerment..so reset DTCs (of which there were none in group 032/033.) Now when it's 0%..seems to run better! I guess I need to find out whats causing rhe system to run rough. I'll need to try and run a MAF test. Downside is a new BOSCH MAf seems to be 126€..more testing tomorrow.
Maybe airleak still or something else? Any suggestions? Thanks
 
   #18  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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OK = mixed results.
I was able to discuss this with the garage that's repairing my wife's crashed car - a tow bar punched through grill, radiator, A/C condensor and some other pieces...
The mechanic looked at mine briefly and I explained what I had done so far.
I have not replaced MAF yet.. we agreed we'll run some compression tests - he'll help me or do it on Friday when I pick up the other car.
I'll post results here later.
(I've also noticed oil leaks around several gaskets/ rocker covers..this might be adding to my problems/part of the problem - if we have oil/stuck valves..- been reading some of Jacks comments/advice/posts..) Need to try and isolate this as best I can. Car still runs..but is definitely not quite right/underpowered.

C5Guy
 
   #19  

C5A6S6UKFRGUY

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OK so had loads on and have left this for a while...update - still not fixed.
Have changed all eight coilpacks (found a very reasonable supplier) and picked up genuine bosch MAF. (I know i kinda thew parts at it but I did reason that these were at least 18yrs old as they were original - it was clear one of the coilpacks for sure was dodgy)
It's "improved" the issue - but its still not right. Driveable but still not there. Trying to do cylinder compression /smoke test next.
Will update when I manage to pinpoint the power loss/ now fruity exhaust. I've possibly just got the remains of running rich for several months...ho hum.
 
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