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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack@European_Parts View Post
    Not me, I'm just a dumb asshole that has a stubbornness about him & to try and do what he thinks is right, however, sometimes right is wrong and wrong is right as that race you aforementioned continues now isn't it?
    You cut yourself short sir. You are not a dumb asshole. I have met you.. I cannot accept that claim especially the "dumb" label.

    And... all of us from time to time act in a way that the label "asshole" may be appropriate. We all have our days when our "human" frailties cause us to muck things badly.

    As to right being wrong and wrong being right... I think I get what you are saying.. that while we may take an action that later proves to not be the intended action, our motive for taking said action is often to support the idea of increasing the common good. What is it they say about the best of intentions?

  2. #602
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    What is it they say about the best of intentions?


    For me?

    I'd say, It's no good deed goes unpunished!


    On another note, I did buy a power-ball ticket & since the Jackpot is $381 MIL, I just can dream of "operation coffee cake" and the bad that will come with the good I plan to purport.

    All aboard.........






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  3. #603
    Verified VCDS User DV52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    Did you truly want kick this old dog and have him bark on this subject?
    Bruce: Being I suspect an even older dog and having a fascination for understanding the motivations of Northern countries (which from my country's perceptive is just about every other place on the globe), I wanted to hear (read) how a sage and a "thinking" capitalist (I assume that you are a capitalist) viewed China's rising influence - particularly after your visit to the China expo and the observations in your post regarding their change processes.

    And you have done just that in your reply - thank you!

    As for the risk of repeating the historic dynamic in Germany, I suspect that it all depends on the actions of China's growing middle class. As long as the middle class are happy (defined any way you want) the regime is fairly safe - I think. Ultimately though, I suspect that both Chinese and "Westerners" are driven by the same primary stimulus: individual self interest -it's just a matter of how this agency manifests in their choice of government.

    The universal salve to the risk of history repeating itself has to be the education of the masses. In an increasingly connected world, the success of countries depends on the efficient use of resources - the most important resource being the country's citizens. This means that it's no longer acceptable for the populous to remain uneducated. Mercifully, education is a two-edged sword in that it promotes what energy-traders call "consequential analysis" -which is a good thing when contemplating revolutionary change of government!

    My apology if you read my questions as being controversial - I didn't intend this, but I do appreciate your measured and your informative response!

    Don
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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  5. #604
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    Someday the boss will find a reason for this old man to travel down under. On that day, we should get together and lift a pint or two!

    I'm glad my words have helped your view into the northern country of China. China's middle class must grow and must have income to spend if China is to lift itself to a self-sustaining economy. It is still not self-sustaining. Without the exports, China cannot grow. Their people do not have the income to buy the goods that keeps the economy expanding..

    I'm not sure I agree that education is salve that stops us from repeating history... the point I was making was that despite the increase in knowledge, we seem to make the same mistakes again and again. The mistakes come from that self-interest you mentioned. Education does not remove human self-centeredness, greed and lust for power. I fear we are on that path to the next ruthless ruler messing with all of us. The times we live in appear to be just like the 20's and 30's from what I read.

    We'll have to keep talking. Perhaps open conversation will lead to the better application of our education. You think our politicians might get that point? NAH! That must have been a brain fart on my part.

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    Verified VCDS User DV52's Avatar
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    ^^^ of course - I would always be more than honored to share a jug (or two) of ale with anyone who works @ Lansdale PA.

    Over the years that I have been a forum member, I have developed a personal view about each of the RT individuals that write in this place. It would be good to have my perceptions confirmed (or not). I have already been disabused of my previous hypothesis that all RT staff shared a remarkable facial similarity with Mr. Pitt or Ms. Jolie (for clarity - males = Brad look-alike, females = Angelina look-alike), so I suspect that I might be wrong once more!!

    We can remain in disagreement regarding our positions on education - IMO, this is key to the success of future generations because without it we can never have equality amongst citizens. Since as we both agree, self interest will be the raison-d'etre - having a continued educational divide in society will simply mean that those who know stuff will be able to control those who don't have the same knowledge base. Education is the leveler and it is the enabler for solving that other societal-divider: disparity of wealth.

    But I've learned after many years on this planet that those who disagree with me are entitled to their own views. Or said another way - those who have a different view to me are entitled to be wrong!!

    Don
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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  8. #606
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    We can remain in disagreement regarding our positions on education - IMO, this is key to the success of future generations because without it we can never have equality amongst citizens.
    If everyone has a college education, who will fix your plumbing when when it breaks? Who will lay bricks, or string wires to bring power and internet?

    Free men are not equal.
    Equal men are not free.

    -Uwe-
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    Lock-down of healthy people: Tyranny

  9. #607
    Verified VCDS User PetrolDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    If everyone has a college education, who will fix your plumbing when when it breaks? Who will lay bricks, or string wires to bring power and internet?
    This is exactly the problem I have with the UK Government wanting 50% of 18 year olds in the UK to go to university (college in the US).

    They come out with a degree and expect companies to fall over to employ them in a high paying position when in reality they are most likely to get a job that has no need of their degree (which they then complain was a waste of time and money)

    The bar used to be much higher so that only 10% went to university, so having a degree really meant something positive about your ability and skills

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  11. #608
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Yeah well I see many alleged college degree carrying individuals, some not doing shit with their respective field of study and even living at home still with parents sucking hind tit & expecting their choice to not do anything with that time wasted, to further forgive their debt incurred to be edummmmmcated!

    Nothing wrong with doing a trade, only thing I get annoyed at is when a plumber or electrician shows up with a tool belt/bucket & with minor tools or fittings/torch/meter but gets 100 or more an hour, however, a tech in auto-industry gets the shaft while having to spend and retain a huge level of equipment & knowledge past 4 wires in schematic, just seems unfair no & maybe like I made a mistake in profession?
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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  13. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    We can remain in disagreement regarding our positions on education - IMO, this is key to the success of future generations because without it we can never have equality amongst citizens. Since as we both agree, self interest will be the raison-d'etre - having a continued educational divide in society will simply mean that those who know stuff will be able to control those who don't have the same knowledge base. Education is the leveler and it is the enabler for solving that other societal-divider: disparity of wealth.
    Indeed, we can and will. However, I am not ready to accept the paragraph quoted without having more - much more - to say.

    If what you have said about education equalizing is true, why then do we not now have that equalization in the US where a high school education is pretty much mandatory for all (89% of Americans in 2016 had a HS diploma -US Census) and college education is obtained by more that 30% of the legal citizen population. The Census numbers only speak about those who completed college. I contend there are a lot of others who have education beyond a HS diploma but who may not have achieved a university or college degree.

    My point:
    If a majority are educated as I pose here, why is there still disparity in income? Why aren't we all paid the same? Why are there still poor among us?

    What PetrolDave said resonates with me:
    They come out with a degree and expect companies to fall over to employ them in a high paying position when in reality they are most likely to get a job that has no need of their degree (which they then complain was a waste of time and money)
    I see my children who have walked the college degree route - who are "smarter" than their mother or father as shown by the number of degrees they hold and the number of hours they have spent under the tutelage of college professors - they are working jobs where the degree does not make a difference and their income is such that they can not live and pay for the debt they incurred to get that education. 10 years out of college, they are still earning what they earned at the start having seen their income increase by less than 1% per year while inflation in those same years was about the same. No ability to advance in their chosen endeavor.

    So is this the leveling you speak of? This eliminates the poor? This brings the rich down to the same level?

    My children are typical of American Millenials. They were persuaded to do the college thing - "do it well.. and your career will be guaranteed to provide you the income needed to have the good life." Well, the truth of the matter is, they were sold a bill of Socialist goods. The education is not going to give them the income increases. [The high cost education allowed the professors to take bigger and bigger salaries. Yet what does that really do? Keeps the educated elite elite! Those professing ideology of equals through education created a system where they are not equals and they do not want to be seen as equals. They possess the knowledge that you suggest we all need. They put themselves on a platform and ask to be lauded for their writing and their knowledge. Equal?]

    Success has always come to those who innovate and do. With or without education, doers usually succeed. People who see a need, develop a means to meet the need, and then sell that solution.. that is how one succeeds in changing class position. In Socialism or Communism, that successful person would have to hand what they earned over to those who desire to get the participation award. When most see that innovating and doing do not lead to a reward, they will stop their innovation and their doing. In those systems, there is no motivation to do more for when more is done there is no reward. Creativity and Innovation are stymied.

    As to not repeating history because we have been educated... if we have never in history solved the problem of rich and poor, what then can be taught that would help formulate a solution to the problem? Sure, you may be able to teach what we know failed. But when has man ever dealt with man's greed? When has man dealt with the problem of lust for power? Will the sameness promoted by this education you mention deal with those, fixing and ending envy, lust?

    I believe that as long as man exists, man's base emotions will remain unchanged. The idea that man can solve these emotional issues for all men everywhere seems absurd to me. Christ had it right: "you will always have the poor with you." And allow me to add: and if we have poor we also have rich.

    I am rich because I have been blessed to have more than I need - that, by my definition, makes me rich. Are there others who have more? Absolutely. Are there many who have less? Absolutely. Do I strive to have what others have? If I am honest, then sadly I must answer I do (even though as a professing Christian I should not desire what others have!). The truth is, I don't come to work just because I love what I do. I come because I am paid to be here to do a job. I want that pay. I want that pay to increase so I push to sell more product - I push to have the best product we can deliver - I push to go into markets where we do not have a strong position and there is more money to made. By these very words I am greedy and lusting for more. I am not satisfied to have handed to me a reward for being here - for showing up. I want to know I have done something not just for me but for others also. For when I push, I know that not only am I rewarded, but those on our team are also rewarded as are the owners of this business for all receive rewards. I have observed that as rewards are received, all want to innovate and push such that we all get more rewards.

    The paragraph above says that greed drives me - yes, you knew it Don - and I have written it clearly for all to see - I am a greedy capitalist. I believe at heart, all humans are capitalists. We all want more of something!

    The masses of people will never be equal to the smaller percentage who lead in such a way to get things accomplished. Leaders of successful goal accomplishing teams get more - the leaders always are rewarded more than the team members. So how do you see education equalizing? Are the talents of each equal? They may have the same education but are they not individuals with differing talents to apply the knowledge they have gained? Don't we all have jealousies towards those who are more talented and get rewarded for those talents?

    Man is an odd animal - the only one that experiences such emotions. Master of all - right? At least that is what the world teaches us to think - we humans control all things. Since man arrived on the scene, man has tried to assume that control over all others on the scene - both human and not. Don you are proposing that through education, this need for man to control will be diminished allowing man to find ways to work together without one human striving to be better than another - that they will be equals in riches, intelect, talents, in all things. What happens if they are not all completely equal in all of these? Won't the striving by the ones who are perceived better continue causing the others to actually be unequal with them? Is it possible for all to be equal?

    Man is doomed to repeat history and history has shown this to be true. Look at the times in which we are living. When was the last time Nationalistic attitudes and super strong positioning occured such that differing views could not be discussed rationally? A history buff should know that the attitudes we are seeing last occurred during the Great Depression in the late 20's and the 30's. And the result?

    Yes, Don. I fear we are headed towards such times. The world financial system is on the brink of collapse. Goverments spending money they do not have nor can they get - as they try to equalize and give each his fair share. Unfotunately, they cannot take 100% of a persons income without incurring anarchy. They are not yet quite evolved enough to try that one. That we as citizens allow them to take over 50% in most countries is nothing short of amazing to me. Are we not leveling things through taxation? Ahh but what government is efficient in the spending of monies? Answer: again look at the historical record... Human greed finds a way to corrupt the good a government tries to do.

    We are approaching a painful reset - a do over. After the reset, after the pain subsides, we will begin rebuilding. We'll make promises to learn from what has just been. A generation, two, maybe three later, the very same problems will be present again. There will be no "equalization" for humans will always be finding a way for one to have more than another. Education will not stop the cycle.

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  15. #610
    Verified VCDS User DV52's Avatar
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    ^^^^Gentlemen- please!!

    Aren't we missing the point? If the question that we are discussing is whether college/trade training institutions are effective in society - then we have succeeded in the mass education directive!

    I'm not sure of the world-wide numbers, but there are many countries (China included) where such debates are not possible because their populations can't read, or write and as a result, the societies are largely ignorant of the lessons of history. It is in those countries that Bruce's fear of history repeating itself through the manipulation of the disgruntled and educated elite (this is my corollary fear) is most probable.


    Don
    VW Golf MkVII (MY13) - A3 8V hatch (MY17)

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