Advice on weaponry

vreihen

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Appreciate the heads up. I have monthly trips to the mountain planned and will make sure stops are off the highway. I may have to bring along the bear porta potty!

Funny (and on-topic) story from our South Carolina tree farm last week. We had two contractors come out to give us quotes on knocking in the first section of rough driveway. When we were stepping though the grass/tree line from the road with one of them, a ~4 foot black snake with white stripes crossed about a foot in front of me. I pointed to it with my hiking stick and gave a courtesy "snake" call-out for everyone following me. The contractor dude behind me screamed like a school girl and beat a hasty retreat back to his truck! He came back carrying a short-barreled AR-15 (that we can't even own in NY State), "just in case" the snake came back.

I'm the "city-slicker" yankee who sits behind a desk all day. He's the good ol' boy southerner who works outdoors for a living. Talk about irony that this city-slicker yankee knows snake shot won't cycle a semi-automatic weapon, and he had little chance of hitting a snake with that AR-15 shooting slugs in close quarters..... :rolleyes:
 

DV52

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Very nice- thanks for the link

As to your rhetoric, you do not name from where you draw your statistics.
I'm surprised that you ask the question. I didn't include a citation because I didn't believe that it matters where I drew my statistics. The veracity of the numeric digits isn't important - the point of my inclusion of statistics was to highlight the quantity of zeros in the numbers!!

I had understood from your words that you agree that there is a problem in America with gun related deaths - I share your belief. A debate about which source of statistical information is the more accurate doesn't advance our shared agreement about the problem- I respectfully suggest!

Guns do not kill. People using the tool kill. The issue is our need to fix people who think it is ok to shoot others; that murder is an acceptable solution to their problem - whatever it may be.
Agree 101% - guns are not sentient. Agree 101% - people using the tool kill! I'm aware of these statements being used by pro-gun lobbyists - but the truth is that both of these points are indisputable facts for anyone considering this issue - regardless of their leanings

Now, as I have said, each country has the right to determine their own gun culture rules. I don't know, and it may well be the case in America that it is possible to solve this problem by totally ignoring the sheer number of guns in your communities - and instead concentrate solely on the "people using the tool [to] kill". As a local, you are in a much better position than me to make this judgement.

I can see why you might suggest this approach given that America's 2nd amendment rights are sacrosanct. However and admittedly as an ill informed foreigner, it does seem to greatly complicate the search for a practical solution. But again - I don't know!

As to accidents that occur, those tragedies come because people are not being responsible for the care of the weapon and frankly the care of their family. Leaving a weapon around where curious young people have access is a lack of responsibility of the gun owner.
Again, you are better placed - but notwithstanding that your point is valid, is this a large part of the gun violence problem in America?

Are the repeated instances of mass killings up there - the result of guns that were carelessly left for the shooter(s) to access? Surely not- given that both you and @vreihen seems to have confirmed that even children/teens have access to guns as a right (maybe I have misunderstood?)

From your words, you believe that removing guns will solve the killing problem. I submit that it will not. Those who want to find weapons to kill others will continue to do so. Perhaps the accidents will be reduced. The suicides will not abate - people wanting to kill themselves will just find another way.
Arrhhh...yes - I'm familiar with this line of argument! Again, I preface my reply with - I'm not sure about America in particular.

However, I invite that you take this logic journey with me: Let's assume that you are correct- let's assume that those "who want to find weapons to kill others will continue to do so" (I happen to agree with you, again). If this is true (as we both agree that it is) -doesn't it logically follow that the more weapons that are available in the local communities, the higher the probability that a gun will be found to commit these atrocities?

This said - the singular difference in America seems (to me) to be your unique 2nd Amendment right. It is for this reason that I'm not sure how to reconcile the logic above and the need to retain this distinctively American facility. Very tricky indeed- I hope that a solution is found quickly that delivers both objectives
The problem the US needs to address is why have we slipped into an attitude that taking a life is a solution to a problem... that is a mental health/social issue, not a gun issue.
I sound like a broken record - but again, I agree albeit I'm not sure that it's logical to maintain that the problem of gun violence doesn't concern the issue of guns (even in America)!!

When I was a kid, we had a rifle team at school. Kids carried their .22 rifle on the school bus. It was not an issue. What has changed? Did the gun change?
It's sentences like these that make America's gun culture so utterly fascinating (to me). My (respectful) reply is "Yes"! Both have changed - nothing surprising about this - and both will continue to change ad infinitum!!

However, what doesn't appear to have kept pace with the change is America's management of gun deaths!! Tragically, the price for this deficiency is being paid by the most precious of you (your children). I have no hesitation in suggesting that for both your Government and for American citizens -by any measure of human values, it's unforgivable to continue to allow this cost to be extracted !!

I simply cannot comprehend how any parent, Aunt/Uncle, moral human-being in America can tolerate such a vile situation to persist in its community. This is/should-be the stuff of fiction; a dystopian world in which human lives are of lesser value - but it's not; it's real and it has been allowed to flourish in your communities. Utterly unbelievable and truly reprehensible when I see successive POTUS's do a pontius-pilot, saying that it's the role of NRA to fix!!

I'm a simple man who likes to distill problems down to their bare essences. To me, this matter won't be solved until decision makers are forced to publicly proclaim what value they place on the lives of American children. Of course everyone will respond by saying "the highest value" - but that's way too easy!!

The point of the question is to ask how the value of children's lives measure against the myriad other advantages that citizens enjoy in 21st century. This is a much more difficult and more profound aspect of the question. It's easy (and in my mind, extremely naive) to think that a solution to gun violence will be found without any compromise to American's way of life. There's very low probability of this occurring IMO and more likely, something will need to be extracted from citizen freedoms.

Now, I'm aware how precious citizen freedoms are to Americans because Aussies share these same beliefs! Hence my suggestion that Americans decide where the lives of those who are the victims of gun violence sit in the list of the other things that they value!! This will determine what compromises are worthy of consideration - and which are not!

I know with absolute certainty how my value-set stacks-up - but I have no idea how American's might make these determinations. And no - Americans throwing their hands in the air and saying "I don't know" (or even worse, remaining silent) isn't an acceptable answer to children not coming home from school - as I'm sure we will agree, again!!

Don
 
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Uwe

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Talk about irony that this city-slicker yankee knows snake shot won't cycle a semi-automatic weapon, and he had little chance of hitting a snake with that AR-15 shooting slugs in close quarters..... :rolleyes:
Yeah, but an AR-15 is so scary looking that the snake would surely slither away. :p

That said, for snakes, a Serbu Super Shorty would be my first choice, but that requires an excessive amount of paperwork, so I'll settle for .38 snub-nose revolver with snake-shot, which is what I keep handy for snakes down in FL. :)

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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@Bruce: I'm mindful that our exchange of words about gun violence is an extremely sensitive topic amongst the normal discussions in this thread - but I take license from the profundity of the massacre of children at Uvalde to make a further observation regarding these tragedies.

Of course I'm aware of the role of the NRA in these matters and I also know about the support provided to the organization's stance on gun control by the effervescent President Trump. However, rest assured that this extension of our previous dialogue is not about the NRA (per se), or the Donald

Anyway, it wasn't until this mornings read of online papers that I learnt of the recent NRA convention that was held in Huston Texas this year on the weekend 27-29 May 2022. Billed as the largest NRA convention on record, my understanding is that the event replaced the 2021 planned celebrations (due to last year's COVID infections in Huston). So, I assume that the 2022 convention would have been well advertised and well known by Americans

As you will appreciate - for many reasons, I don't take much interest in NRA festivities - but the obvious coincidences in both the location (I believe Huston is 300 kms from Uvalde) and timing (Uvalde massacre happened on 24 May 2022) seems palpable (to me, at least)

Do you believe that there might be a link (maybe a message from Salvador Ramos) in my mental equations - which I'm sure are not mine alone?

Don

PS: As an aside and with your indulgence for a small levity on an otherwise extremely serious matter - I couldn't help sharing the following ironic observation by Aljazeera about the 2022 convention :

“Guns have been banned from Donald Trump’s speech to the NRA – making it safer from gun violence than most American schools,” Abdul El-Sayed, a progressive commentator and former gubernatorial candidate in Michigan, wrote on Twitter.
 
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DV52

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This is absolutely appalling!! The more that I read, the more terrible and real is the horror - the number one cause of deaths for American youth is fire arms related (reference HERE)!!

How are the statistics below possible for the most powerful Nation in the world? And, in the country with the top spot in "Quality of Life" and "Social Purpose," and with the highest education!

Remember, these are your children (vulnerable, trusting, innocent, obedient, curious, beautiful) - the most precious of you with every right to expect a full and fruitful life!! .

nejmc2201761_f1.jpeg


And how is it possible for an issue that has 53% support (81% for those favoring Democratic Party) not to be auctioned?

When the people want change in a liberal democracy - how can it be stymied by business interests, Weaponry Associations and those in the minority - especially where the lives of neighbors/children/humans are in the balance?

What's happening up there? Protesters stormed the White-House over the lunacy of the alleged vote rigging - why isn't every parent, every person of moral fiber massing outside Capital Hill demanding change, NOW??

Where is the voice of the majority?

Don

PP_2021.04.20_gun-policy_00-06.png
 
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Uwe

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And how is it possible for an issue that has 53% support (81% for those favoring Democratic Party) not to be auctioned?
What part of "Shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Where is the voice of the majority?
The difference between a Constitutional Republic and a Democracy is that in the former, certain rights are protected no matter how much the "majority" wants to infringe on them.

-Uwe-
 
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Ronaldo

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This is absolutely appalling!! The more that I read, the more terrible and real is the horror - the number one cause of deaths for American youth is fire arms related (reference HERE)!!

How are the statistics below possible for the most powerful Nation in the world? And, in the country with the top spot in "Quality of Life" and "Social Purpose," and with the highest education!

Remember, these are your children (vulnerable, trusting, innocent, obedient, curious, beautiful) - the most precious of you with every right to expect a full and fruitful life!! .
As a citizen from a country that sadly has the highest number of deaths by homicide in the world, I think I can add some points you may find interesting. Statistics can be very misleading, depending on how they are analyzed. In my country, despite a very strict firearms control law imposed since 2003, homicide rates have increased, and we all knowm most deaths by firearms are related to drug crimes, practiced by people who buy firearms illegally. Firearm related deaths in the USA seem to be no much different.
Notice that the statistics you supplied include "children and adolescents" in the same chart, which may lead people to think children and adolescents have the same mortality rates, which is not true. If you look at CDC statistics for leading causes of death from 1 to 14 year old you see a rate of about 1.4 deaths by assault/homicide (firearms related or not) by 100.000, while the rate is 12.3 for the ages 15-19. Such much higher rate could be related to including an age range when young people begin to get involved in drug related crimes. Another interesting fact is that, still in the 15-19 age range, you have totally different rates if you separate by gender. Males have a homicide rate of 20.9 while females have only 3.3, which supports the conclusion that the deaths have connection to the involvement in crimes, rather than innocents being victims of murder.
Here is where I took the statistics from:
 

vreihen

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Mayor Eric Adams of NYC was doing a TV interview from Washington DC today, where he was pushing his anti-gun agenda to anyone who would listen. He said that, and I quote, "Nobody needs an AK-47 to hunt rabbits."

When I was a kid, there was a factual documentary ;) on TV every Saturday morning...and it *clearly* showed that a shotgun was inadequate for hunting wabbits..... :facepalm:

elmer-fudd-gun-1.jpg



.
 

Uwe

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"Nobody needs an AK-47 to hunt rabbits."
America's Founders did not include the Second Amendment in our Constitution because they were worried about The People being oppressed by rabbits or deer.

-Uwe-
 

RGH0

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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

what part of a well regulated militia has 18 year olds with assault rifles killing kids?
 

Uwe

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what part of a well regulated militia has 18 year olds with assault rifles killing kids?
Your parsing of the sentence is incorrect.

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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What part of "Shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
hmm....it may not appear so - but I really do understand what "shall not be infringed" means! You are of course referring to the last part of your 2nd Amendment right and it's not surprising that the retort comes out "guns blazing" from the outset (pun intended)

I have NEVER (repeat for additional emphasis "NEVER") advocated in this place that the solution to America's gun deaths necessarily means the abolition of the 2nd Amendment. What I have said many times is that each country has the right to determine its own gun rules . So please understand my fundamental position and let's not confuse these quite separate, but related issues!

However - on the general matter of the constitutional document that is the bed-rock for a liberal democracy (see my reply about Republic versus Democracy below) and putting aside your views on the 2nd amendment for the moment - I assume that you are not advocating that the ANY of the terms of ANY Constitution are so permanent and are so sacrosanct that they ought never to be changed - even if an amendment contains the phrase "shall not be infringed"?

I can't imagine that any USA countrymen would believe that James Madison had the visionary insight in 1791 to understand the societal needs of American citizens for all time !!

EVERY Constitution in EVERY country that has a liberal democracy contemplates its own change mechanism as a fundamental condition of its existence!! It's simply wrong and its entirely unreasonable to extract words like "shall not be infringed" as meaning that a particular amendment is excluded from the change process -IMHO.

And of course, lets not forget that Mr Madison's proposal was itself a facility that used the very amendment process that makes EVERY term in your Constitution subject to change. But as I have said, I'm not advocating the abolition of your 2nd Amendment

Now I come to a far more sensitive matter which you may choose to ignore - I mentioned earlier that a basic missing element in my understanding of this issue in America is how citizens rate their need for a "well regulated militia" vis-a-vis the lives of those that are the victims of gun violence. I guess that this is an easy judgement to make if the victim is a pathological serial killer - but I suspect that there are very few cases like this. Rather, my question is given real meaning when applied to the growing number of innocent victims in your society and it's most profound when applied to the lives of your beautiful and most precious children!

Again, as I have said "I know with absolute certainty" (for me) the relative importance of these two aspects in a healthy moral society

So- with an acknowledgement that it is a very sensitive question and with the conviction that it's a necessary question for Americans to answer IMO - where is the balance point?


The difference between a Constitutional Republic and a Democracy is that in the former, certain rights are protected no matter how much the "majority" wants to infringe on them.

-Uwe-
Your response reads as though you believe that a Constitutional Republic is different from Democracy? They are not (even in America)- they are in truth, and they MUST ALWAYS BE different aspects of the same thing!!

A Constitutional Republic is a form of government whereas a Democracy is THE ideology that gives definition to how that government is run. Or said another way - a Constitutional Republic is the system of government that allows a country to be democratic!

This being so and by the very definition of terms, the operation of a democracy that gives form to the Constitutional Republic that governs its peoples MUST be ruled by the will of the majority!! Else the resulting system of government is an abomination (IMO, of course)!!
 
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Uwe

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This being so and by the very definition of terms, the operation of a democracy that gives form to the Constitutional Republic that governs its peoples MUST be ruled by the will of the majority!! Else the resulting system of government is an abomination (IMO, of course)!!
Let's take that to its logical conclusion: If it is the will of a big majority that a small minority should be led off to the gas chambers and disposed of in mass graves, and that majority elects a government willing to do so, then that's just fine, right?

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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As a citizen from a country that sadly has the highest number of deaths by homicide in the world, I think I can add some points you may find interesting. Statistics can be very misleading, depending on how they are analyzed. In my country, despite a very strict firearms control law imposed since 2003, homicide rates have increased, and we all knowm most deaths by firearms are related to drug crimes, practiced by people who buy firearms illegally. Firearm related deaths in the USA seem to be no much different.
Notice that the statistics you supplied include "children and adolescents" in the same chart, which may lead people to think children and adolescents have the same mortality rates, which is not true. If you look at CDC statistics for leading causes of death from 1 to 14 year old you see a rate of about 1.4 deaths by assault/homicide (firearms related or not) by 100.000, while the rate is 12.3 for the ages 15-19. Such much higher rate could be related to including an age range when young people begin to get involved in drug related crimes. Another interesting fact is that, still in the 15-19 age range, you have totally different rates if you separate by gender. Males have a homicide rate of 20.9 while females have only 3.3, which supports the conclusion that the deaths have connection to the involvement in crimes, rather than innocents being victims of murder.
Here is where I took the statistics from:
@Ronaldo: Yes, but I really don't understand the fundamental premise of your response!! What difference does it make if we separate "children and adolescents" - Shirley the values of their lives is exactly the same?

Even accepting your points - Shirley your position isn't that America's problem with the senseless slaughter of its Children (defined any way that you choose) isn't large enough, or isn't of sufficient importance to not warrant a review of its gun-laws?

If the answer is no - what does it matter
 

RGH0

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Your parsing of the sentence is incorrect.

-Uwe-
Yes the second amendment is interesting as the different official versions ( congress versus the official state versions) have different parsing with commas in and out.

However IMO the right to bear arms in the second amendment was intended in the context of a well regulated militia and single shot rifles in what was a frontier society facing many threats.

The travesty again IMO is that the courts (and politicians) have allowed it to be a free for all with essentially unlimited access to any weapon for anyone anywhere anytime

Cheers
Rohan
 

DV52

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Let's take that to its logical conclusion: If a big majority think that a small minority should be led off to the gas chambers and disposed of in mass graves, and that majority elects a government willing to do so, then that's just fine, right?

-Uwe-
hmm...... now you are being very cheeky (and a tad mischievous)!!

Think seriously about your example. Yes, Hitler was elected via a democracy - but even you must acknowledge that after taking power - the subsequent rise of the Nazi regime which gave substance to your example was in every sense a dictatorship.

Hitler's dictatorship was an abomination- and for the point of this debate, any comparison with a "heathly moral democracy" is a nonsense!!

But yes, since you have made the connection with WWII- in exactly the same way that Americans know about the death of their beautiful children through gun violence and are doing nothing, they share the same culpability as WWII Germans (to the extent that these Germans knew about the gas chambers and did nothing)!

PS: have you read Mein Kamph - Hitler thought that democracy was nothing more than a preliminary stage of Bolshevism
 

Uwe

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However IMO the right to bear arms in the second amendment was intended in the context of a well regulated militia and single shot rifles in what was a frontier society facing many threats.

The travesty again IMO is that the courts (and politicians) have allowed it to be a free for all with essentially unlimited access to any weapon for anyone anywhere anytime
It's obvious that you have never read any of the Founders' writings that provide the context for the Second Amendment.

-Uwe-
 

Uwe

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Hitler's dictatorship was an abomination- and for the point of this debate, any comparison with a "heathly moral democracy" is a nonsense!!
How exactly does one ensure that a democracy remains "healthy" and "moral"?

Americans know about the death of their beautiful children through gun violence and are doing nothing, they share the same culpability as WWII Germans (to the extent that these Germans knew about the gas chambers and did nothing)!
No. Big difference. It is not our the government that is engaged in these killings. In fact, in the most recent incident, there were plenty of people who wanted to do something (at great personal risk!), but were prevented from doing so by the government (the police, who stood around with the hands in their pockets for the better part of an hour).

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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How exactly does one ensure that a democracy remains "healthy" and "moral"?
One ensures a "healthy and moral democracy" by working at it - and at a very minimum, by protecting the most vulnerable and the most precious of its citizens!

No. Big difference. It is not our the government that is engaged in these killings. In fact, in the most recent incident, there were plenty of people who wanted to do something (at great personal risk!), but were prevented from doing so by the government (the police, who stood around with the hands in their pockets for the better part of an hour).

-Uwe-
hmm........ I don't agree - It doesn't matter that Biden blames the NRA (and it most certainly doesn't matter that President Trump actually supports the NRA) - your government is as much accountable as Americans for these killings - both appear to allow the deaths to continue.

Again, let's not confuse the two separate issues; the perpetrators of the actual massacres and those responsible, and ultimately, accountable for dealing with gun violence in the community! These are different issues (albeit, obviously related).

So while "our government" didn't pull the actual trigger - it (and I'm sensing, you too) sure as hell does permit/condone the killer's absolute right to pull the trigger as an American citizen!

So, contrary to your position - it's an indisputable fact that "our government" is very much "engaged in these killings" and to argue otherwise is simply a perversion of accountability.

And finally - every American that does nothing but throw their hands into the air and beat their chest saying "there's nothing that I can do - it's the NRA's fault" (what self-righteous and convenient nonsense) is also "engaged in these killings"!!

Hell, your children are not coming home from school in ever increasing numbers - what more incentive does it take to motivate action?

PS: your example is yet another attempt (I'm sensing a pattern) to conflate very different things; in this case - the solution to gun violence and an example of an event of gun violence!!
 
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