Passat B5 starts and idles but no throttle until warm

This is a great movie

An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Do you really think that someone is gonna go through the trouble & expense of getting a CARB or EPA certificate for this?

-Uwe-

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I do because if a tuner like Neuspeed can take the time to go get a CARB certificate, than why can't these guys?

Actually Uwe it isn't all that expensive to have a car reviewed by CARB or the EPA for an approved alteration & if the car already had a COC and they the "supposed tuners" could show where they made the alleged improvements.

In this case the absence of a COC or CARB certificate or application to show further intent to get certified I have to disagree .........oh that is absence of evidence to preform the lawful duties to enter a regulated industry & if you already sold the product for public use and profit or are we arguing the alleged tuner is of significant ignorance?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

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This is a great movie

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Indeed it's a great film..........

^+1, but in this case if he just nixed out trans. I don't know if it's just that simple

^+1, but in this case if he just nixed out trans. I don't know if it's just that simple

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Did someone say "case"? or "Use Case"

Let me follow up to this with statement.

I am not against anyone bettering themselves or doing an improvement/conversion project that is viable to them......I just prefer a process of quality is adhered to for doing things correctly & as they can be when playing cobb job.

That said what I have aforementioned here is about a "process", not the subject of whether some half ass tuner does or doesn't break a law, however, it is factual they are in violation Marin.

We follow a process with everything here for example an auto-scan to commence with using the forum or login to a controller with VCDS, otherwise the controller gives you a big fat Negative Response.

Ones or zeros for Readiness etc etc..

FOD and failure to respect the RTFB / JPPSG process or in this case "industry standards", is what gets most in trouble and here it may just be the process of shitty workmanship who knows. but all of this is part of a "process".

So far this thread is a textbook example of a failed process and what not to do when engaging a repair process to modify the original use case of operation.

WHAT FAIL you get an F.............

I shall never use the word CASE again

I shall never use the word CASE again

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"USE CASE"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case

maybe we can get this back on topic -

Some tuners use a Euro 2.0 8V PD engine software version for the manual swap BHW. We'll call this Euro motor code "BXW." BXW came with a manual, hence the ECU supports the manual soft coding.

Some tuners us a BEW software version for the manual swap BHW. BEW also came with a manual, is a lot easier to fund over here. Trouble is that the BEW has a lot more differences between it and the BHW compared to BXW/BHW. In a way the modified BXW software version which gets bench flashed onto the stock ECU is a more technically correct solution.

We may have idle issues as a result of the improper base software version being used. I know for a fact that BEW and BHW use very different idle control characteristics.

Of course that doesn't jive with the crappy starting when using the stock Immo off AT BHW ECU. But then again, there are a few different software versions for BHW. Pre glow plug recall vs post and there were minor tweaks to improve starting and reduce smoke at startup. We may have some mechanical deficiencies coupled with the wrong 'stock' software version that are making things harder to diagnose.

So that brings us to the 'take stuff apart and see what changes' troubleshooting plan (instead of just requesting that the mystery Tuner of OZ behind the curtain chip-fix the car).

What happens when you unplug the lambda sensor? Car should start just fine, but maybe have an elevated idle based on my experience.

How 'bout unplugging the MAF or the EGR or the V157?

Did a cam get replaced in this adventure? Did the injector rocker preload get adjusted after?

Did I see 13* of duration at idle in one of those posed scans? That's over 2x the duration of what healthy injectors should need to idle a car. This may be indicative of injectors that are really worn out. Since idle is closed loop, ECU will bump duration until the idle speed is correct. If that happens to be right at the MAF based torque limitation, then you don't get much of a throttle pedal. As the engine warms up, IQ drops, and you'll have some space between idle torque and smoke limitation torque for a throttle. So maybe the injectors are just torched. That's an expensive guess, but this kinda sounds like an expensive Passat by now.

maybe we can get this back on topic -

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Yeah agreed maybe we could actually know WTF we are talking about before stating engine codes because a BXW is gas and for a 1.4 "Seat" IDK call me crazy.... Sorry just being an asshole now go fix your post and TY for trying to help the dude....

Some tuners use a Euro 2.0 8V PD engine software version for the manual swap BHW. We'll call this Euro motor code "BXW." BXW came with a manual, hence the ECU supports the manual soft coding.

Some tuners us a BEW software version for the manual swap BHW. BEW also came with a manual, is a lot easier to fund over here. Trouble is that the BEW has a lot more differences between it and the BHW compared to BXW/BHW. In a way the modified BXW software version which gets bench flashed onto the stock ECU is a more technically correct solution.

We may have idle issues as a result of the improper base software version being used. I know for a fact that BEW and BHW use very different idle control characteristics.

Of course that doesn't jive with the crappy starting when using the stock Immo off AT BHW ECU. But then again, there are a few different software versions for BHW. Pre glow plug recall vs post and there were minor tweaks to improve starting and reduce smoke at startup. We may have some mechanical deficiencies coupled with the wrong 'stock' software version that are making things harder to diagnose.

So that brings us to the 'take stuff apart and see what changes' troubleshooting plan (instead of just requesting that the mystery Tuner of OZ behind the curtain chip-fix the car).

What happens when you unplug the lambda sensor? Car should start just fine, but maybe have an elevated idle based on my experience.

How 'bout unplugging the MAF or the EGR or the V157?

Did a cam get replaced in this adventure? Did the injector rocker preload get adjusted after?

Did I see 13* of duration at idle in one of those posed scans? That's over 2x the duration of what healthy injectors should need to idle a car. This may be indicative of injectors that are really worn out. Since idle is closed loop, ECU will bump duration until the idle speed is correct. If that happens to be right at the MAF based torque limitation, then you don't get much of a throttle pedal. As the engine warms up, IQ drops, and you'll have some space between idle torque and smoke limitation torque for a throttle. So maybe the injectors are just torched. That's an expensive guess, but this kinda sounds like an expensive Passat by now.

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I still think there are benefits to following the JPPSG!

NostraJack "Ass" Has Spoken!

Jack -

You misread and replied in haste.

I said "we'll call this motor BXW". That's far different that saying "this IS the BXW motor". This is "a rose by any other name" sort of thing.

Hopefully OP won't discredit my post based on your comment that I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

I didn't misread anything, however, you are indeed mixing and referencing vag or other engine codes in your post of explanation how it reads to me and any tech.

Thanks for all your interesting responses and discussion. And thanks for getting back on topic.
I want to remind you all that there is an autoscan posted on page 2. I've also posted on page 2 a controller map of my car running poorly when cold as well as a controller map from a properly running car. They were both recorded at the exact same coolant temp, 37.8C.
I'd also like to reiterate some of the most significant observations (at least to me) of this most frustrating puzzle:

The car ran fine before the manual swap AND it runs fine after the coolant temp rises above 56-58C. So whatever is causing the issue resolves itself when the car is warm.

When the car is cold there is ZERO throttle response despite normal functioning of the TPS. When the car is warm the throttle runs properly and the engine revs smoothly to redline.

Despite all the ECU discussion I'm confident that both of my ECUs are functional. The stock ECU with the Immo delete works perfectly when installed in a normal running Passat B5 TDI.

When the car is cold there are some significantly abnormal values when compared to the control car. I'm not implying that these are the cause of the problem, only measurable observations using the VCDS controller map function. The first number is my car the second number is the control for comparison:
RPM- 651/ 861 (RPM slowly increases as the car warms)
Injection Quantity- 33.8/ 7.4
Specified MAF- 665(sometimes 850)/ 285
Actual MAF- 430/ 280
Ignition Timing- 13.6 BTDC/ 3.1 BTDC
EGR Duty Cycle- 100.6%/ 79.3%
And there are many more differences but these are the ones that caught my eye.

When I first start the car cold it will start immediately, idle smoothly for a few seconds then suddenly increase RPM up to about 900-1000 and then suddenly try to die. The first few times I start it, it will actually shut down. After a few attempts it will just barely catch and settle into a very slow and rough albeit persistent idle that allows it to warm up enough to run normally.

I have tried disconnecting the MAF sensor and tried a MAF sensor from a normal running car. I have also disconnected most of the other sensors including the camshaft position sensor, coolant temp sensor (replaced with a new CTS from the dealer), O2 sensor. I've also cleaned the EGR valve a tried disconnecting it and the ASV. None of these have made any difference. I've looked for misplaced rags in the air intake path and checked the fuel system. I have NOT measured tandem pump pressure.

When I pulled the engine I replaced the plastic coolant manifold, thermostat, CTS, and crankshaft position sensor. While the engine was out I did a BSM delete and installed a new timing belt and water pump (I just rechecked the timing belt for proper alignment). I also installed new fuel and air filters.

The manual transmission is an FHN from Dutch Auto Parts and all the other swap parts were form a B5 6 cylinder gasser. I modified the wiring for the clutch start switch, the cruise control, and the reverse lights. The TCU is removed and the connector is sealed.

Again, many thanks for your thoughts and comments.

There's 50 post I'm not going to read every single one of them when you say that you have Done fuel system check have you checked pressure to the tandem pump.

Could be an oil control check valve creating too much oil psi cold when thick then allowing to run hot once thinned out.

What's the part number on the oil pump you put in

Also which gear

I bought the BSM delete kit from Kerma
http://www.kermatdi.com/balance-shaft-delete-kit-for-bhw-passat/
I substituted the gear from a BRM (per Kerma) for the stock gear.

I have checked flow (not pressure) TO the tandem pump. As I understand it flow and pressure TO the tandem pump is a function of the lift pump. I have NOT checked the pressure generated by the tandem pump and I understand that there's a way to do this through a port in the pump.

I'm not aware of any "oil control check valve". Where is it located and how might I check it?

Again, I have to ask how might these suggestions be linked to the observations I listed in my last post, such as very advanced ignition timing and unresponsive throttle, and how they're ultimately related to temperature?

Again, I have to ask how might these suggestions be linked to the observations I listed in my last post, such as very advanced ignition timing and unresponsive throttle, and how they're ultimately related to temperature?[/QUOTE]
Everybody and their mothers trying to play Can You Name That Tune in 5 tunes or less. We are relying on your information and whatever knowledge we have without being there. Like to know what kind of a mechanical training or knowledge do you have. Was the motor removed out of the vehicle or did they work on it while the engines was still in the engine bay. Log torsion values cold and hot. Disconnect the turbo hose and run it like that see what happens

The problem is here , just need to figure out why is doing this , High lighted :

RPM- 651/ 861 (RPM slowly increases as the car warms)
Injection Quantity- 33.8/ 7.4
Specified MAF- 665(sometimes 850)/ 285
Actual MAF- 430/ 280
Ignition Timing- 13.6 BTDC/ 3.1 BTDC
EGR Duty Cycle- 100.6%/ 79.3%

Now , I need you to disconnect MAF and see what specified Value is form Start when car is do not have throttle , and all way to when you get throttle response ?
When MAF is disconnected default value needs to be 550 and can not chnage .

Torsion value both cold and warm is 0.0.

Ran the car this morning with the MAF disconnected. First value is from cold engine, second value is when engine began to run normally at 57C coolant temp:

Specified MAF- 665/ 265
Actual MAF- 550/ 550
Timing- 13.6/ 1.9
Injection Quantity- 31.3/ 31.3

I also looked at MB 013:
Cold- .02 0 .02 0
Warm- -.99 .47 -.42 .89

I bet timing is out on belt regardless of zero value shown in ECU.