ETKA alternative - perhaps?

   #41  

Uwe

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   #42  

Jack@European_Parts

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The part #s and the database are copy written IP material case closed when taken to court here in the USA.

And... no - this matter is certainly NOT the same as IP theft related to clone VCDS cables!

Oh why yes it is!

It's all about use within granted permissions to access the IP no different than when you use the granted license of VCDS by means of purchase and dongle.

In VAG's case you bought the car and each part indeed has a part # printed on it......you didn't buy the right to the parts database IP, unless you chose to negotiate that permission like I did when I did my own business transaction.

Maybe before you buy your next car try to get a letter in writing on VAG letterhead & from someone that matters granting such a permission........ever consider that verse being a brandy wine?


Come the revolution (comrade) when the proletariat's interests prevail - such inane practices by multinational conglomerates will be outlawed! When this happens (as it surely must happen) - which side will you be on (i.e. the side of the silver-tailed, shiny pants bosses, or the side of the common man) :D?


I have always been a common man.........no one special here....... :rolleyes: maybe special ed though.

"These are not the droids you are looking for"


I am not saying VAG is right with making things harder for a customer than they should........... but in this case they are within the right side of the law & when it came to diesel-gate, they were on the other side.

I think we would have or had a better argument for CP and Immobilizer data being provided than an etka parts database.
I complained and complained & it's been a long hard road!

I can say at least I have tried to help myself and the community to what I am capable of.................


 
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   #43  

DV52

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The part #s and the database are copy written IP material case closed when taken to court here in the USA.

More information please.

Getting back to my previous points - what asect of the Part #s database did the courts say is "copy written IP material case closed when taken to court here in the USA"? It can't be the number itself (since it's written on the parts in my car - as you say). Is it the price perhaps? I would argue that a buyer has the fundamental right to know the cost of an item before it's purchased. Or is it the fact that the part number is linked to a model- perhaps ? Again, it would respond that a buyer should have reasonable confidence that the part to be purchsed is suitable for his/her vehicle - without having to pay extra for that reassurance.

So what is it about the part #s database that is so sacrosanct in the USA?


It's all about use within granted permissions to access the IP no different than when you use the granted license of VCDS by means of purchase and dongle.

Jack: again, with no offense intended - I couldn't agree less with this stance. There is world of difference between the the intellectual capital in RT's products (which are correctly defined as IP and correctly belong to RT) and the spurious basis for VAG's attempt to extort additional funds from spare parts buyers. The fact that both use the label "IP" as the vehicle for their legitimacy is coincidental, but to align the two because of this - grossly undervalues the veracity of RT's rights IMO. But in the spirit of forum decorum - let's just agree to disagree (again)!


In VAG's case you bought the car and each part indeed has a part # printed on it......you didn't buy the right to the parts database IP, unless you chose to negotiate that permission like I did when I did my own business transaction.

Maybe before you buy your next car try to get a letter in writing on VAG letterhead & from someone that matters granting such a permission........ever consider that verse being a brandy wine?

With the deepest respect - quite the opposite! I don't believe that as a purchaser of a VAG vehicle, I should have to seek such permission. In fact, I would argue that if VAG's practices deviate so radically from normal accepted commercial processes, it's incumbent on VAG to tell me BEFORE I purchase the vehicle that the only way that I could get access to the basic data for buying their spare parts is to pay them an additional fee for this information. Would this change my decision to buy the car? Probably not - but I don't for a minute believe that every purchaser of a VAG vehicle should be aware of these deviant commercial practices and therefore provide implicit consent unless they otherwise negotiate a signed release on VAG letterhead!


I have always been a common man.........no one special here....... :rolleyes:

Jack: Whilst I agree with the first part, I vehemently disagree with the second bit. We have not met, but I've little doubt that you a man of the people. However, in your case - being a common-man does most certainly not make you a common man! I only have to read your writings to prove that you are anything but a common man (and that's a very good thing)!!

Don

PS: I hope that you don't disclose any portion of the parts #s database to customers that "walk into your shop" - or does your special agreement have a waiver for disclosing IP?

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   #44  

Sebastian

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DV52, let's turn the tide here... Feel free to prove that this is NOT copyrighted material. As a starting point...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102

...for the time being, those catalogs contain images - which in almost all cases are copyrighted (not just in the US) and there is very little one can argue about that. Therefor, the entire "work" containing these images is protected, which means that the sites removed here would have a very tough standing legally.

FWIW, I've been moderating in Germany's biggest automotive forum since 2003 and we have had countless topics, discussions and legal arguments thrown back and forth. I'm not going to say I've heard it all, though believe me when I tell you, I have heard a lot of arguments. In the end, none has prevailed in court yet.
 
   #45  

Jack@European_Parts

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DV52, let's turn the tide here... Feel free to prove that this is NOT copyrighted material. As a starting point...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102

...for the time being, those catalogs contain images - which in almost all cases are copyrighted (not just in the US) and there is very little one can argue about that. Therefor, the entire "work" containing these images is protected, which means that the sites removed here would have a very tough standing legally.

FWIW, I've been moderating in Germany's biggest automotive forum since 2003 and we have had countless topics, discussions and legal arguments thrown back and forth. I'm not going to say I've heard it all, though believe me when I tell you, I have heard a lot of arguments. In the end, none has prevailed in court yet.


Not just images..........but for the most part agree with Sebastian here.


More information please.

Getting back to my previous points - what asect of the Part #s database did the courts say is "copy written IP material case closed when taken to court here in the USA"? It can't be the number itself (since it's written on the parts in my car - as you say). Is it the price perhaps? I would argue that a buyer has the fundamental right to know the cost of an item before it's purchased. Or is it the fact that the part number is linked to a model- perhaps ? Again, it would respond that a buyer should have reasonable confidence that the part to be purchsed is suitable for his/her vehicle - without having to pay extra for that reassurance.

So what is it about the part #s database that is so sacrosanct in the USA?

Don,
You or I can argue what we want there is no doubt, people can argue a point, but this is the law as it is written with VAG part # registered.
VAG part #'s are proprietary because they are copy written material. The first 3 digits identify a chassis, the second 3 identify a group, and the last three with additional letters identify a version in addition the next group may indicate a color or index. All of which is copy written and be observed via FOI.

Really the fact that RT uses index's and labels of part #s in the tool itself could possibly be challenged by Jokeswagen...........RT could argue fair use with changes like adding the engine code in a combination but ultimately I think VAG would win as the originator and they have deeper pockets.
Hence why VAG-COM is now VCDS................

I used to have written permission to use the TM logos of VW-Audi in writing and it was revoked because a franchise threatened to sue VOA.


With the deepest respect - quite the opposite! I don't believe that as a purchaser of a VAG vehicle, I should have to seek such permission. In fact, I would argue that if VAG's practices deviate so radically from normal accepted commercial processes, it's incumbent on VAG to tell me BEFORE I purchase the vehicle that the only way that I could get access to the basic data for buying their spare parts is to pay them an additional fee for this information. Would this change my decision to buy the car? Probably not - but I don't for a minute believe that every purchaser of a VAG vehicle should be aware of these deviant commercial practices and therefore provide implicit consent unless they otherwise negotiate a signed release on VAG letterhead!

Then do something about it and make a petition or get government involved or continue to mast a pirate flag what can I tell you.
Everyone has their own line of what they think is right and wrong, that's why we litigate or do whatever we want until caught.........human nature....everyone lies or to themselves!

Jack: Whilst I agree with the first part, I vehemently disagree with the second bit. We have not met, but I've little doubt that you a man of the people. However, in your case - being a common-man does most certainly not make you a common man! I only have to read your writings to prove that you are anything but a common man (and that's a very good thing)!!

I'm just an everyday asshole but thank you.......:p

PS: I hope that you don't disclose any portion of the parts #s database to customers that "walk into your shop" - or does your special agreement have a waiver for disclosing IP?

I XXX the last three digits on my repair orders for 20 years or better!
 
   #46  

Uwe

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IANAL, but but IMO a part number is not something that a company can prevent a 3rd party from referencing under copyright law. A part number, by itself is simply not a copyright-able "work". Now a complete database of part numbers, their application, associated images, and so on, that is a copyright-able "work".

-Uwe-
 
   #47  

Jack@European_Parts

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IANAL, but but IMO a part number is not something that a company can prevent a 3rd party from referencing under copyright law. A part number, by itself is simply not a copyright-able "work". Now a complete database of part numbers, their application, associated images, and so on, that is a copyright-able "work".

-Uwe-


Absolutely........... opinions are like assholes and I am one of them. :rolleyes:

IANAL to close to the word ANAL......... or I-ANAL

https://www.copyright.gov/title37/201/37cfr201-14.html


§201.14 Warnings of copyright for use by certain libraries and archives.

(a) Definitions.
(1) A Display Warning of Copyright is a notice under paragraphs (d)(2) and (e)(2) of section 108 of title 17 of the United States Code. As required by those sections the “Display Warning of Copyright” is to be displayed at the place where orders for copies or phonorecords are accepted by certain libraries and archives.
(2) An Order Warning of Copyright is a notice under paragraphs (d)(2) and (e)(2) of section 108 of title 17 of the United States Code. As required by those sections the “Order Warning of Copyright” is to be included on printed forms supplied by certain libraries and archives and used by their patrons for ordering copies or phonorecords.
(b) Contents. A Display Warning of Copyright and an Order Warning of Copyright shall consist of a verbatim reproduction of the following notice, printed in such size and form and displayed in such manner as to comply with paragraph (c) of this section: notice warning concerning copyright restrictions


The copyright law of the United States (title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material.
Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specific conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be “used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research.” If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excess of “fair use,” that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law.


(c) Form and manner of use.
(1) A Display Warning of Copyright shall be printed on heavy paper or other durable material in type at least 18 points in size, and shall be displayed prominently, in such manner and location as to be clearly visible, legible, and comprehensible to a casual observer within the immediate vicinity of the place where orders are accepted.
(2) An Order Warning of Copyright shall be printed within a box located prominently on the order form itself, either on the front side of the form or immediately adjacent to the space calling for the name or signature of the person using the form. The notice shall be printed in type size no smaller than that used predominantly throughout the form, and in no case shall the type size be smaller than eight points. The notice shall be printed in such manner as to be clearly legible, comprehensible, and readily apparent to a casual reader of the form.

(Pub. L. 94-553; 17 U.S.C. 108, 702) [42 FR 59265, Nov. 16, 1977, as amended at 82 FR 9357, Feb. 6, 2017]



https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107

17 U.S. Code § 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Current through Pub. L. 114-38. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)





prev | next
§ 107.
Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
(Pub. L. 94–553, title I, § 101, Oct. 19, 1976, 90 Stat. 2546; Pub. L. 101–650, title VI, § 607, Dec. 1, 1990, 104 Stat. 5132; Pub. L. 102–492, Oct. 24, 1992, 106 Stat. 3145.)



There are reasons why suppliers also use or have their own part numbering systems in addition to an OEM part # referenced for these reasons of legality.
 
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   #48  

D-Dub

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when i become president, this issue is on my list to fix.

and when i say fixed, i am not saying that this should not be copyright-able, but that it it should be considered fair use for all end users and parts-chain members for access and dissemination.
 
   #49  

Jack@European_Parts

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when i become president, this issue is on my list to fix.

and when i say fixed, i am not saying that this should not be copyright-able, but that it it should be considered fair use for all end users and parts-chain members for access and dissemination.


See now that D-Dub makes sense verse rationalizing an illegal behavior.

I think one getting a petition to change the copyright law makes more sense..........& in the spirit of things saying something like this.

All copy written materials which are used as or considered a means of disrupting/Interfering with an economy, shall be void and permitted as fair use under public policy or when the originator is incapable of performing such a service on the mass scale that it sold or implemented a product vicariously of any IP & if the IP is considered obsolete.

NostraJackAss Has Spoken!
 
   #50  

DV52

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IANAL, but but IMO a part number is not something that a company can prevent a 3rd party from referencing under copyright law. A part number, by itself is simply not a copyright-able "work". Now a complete database of part numbers, their application, associated images, and so on, that is a copyright-able "work".

-Uwe-

Uwe:Alas, I guess I will need to disagree with another forum member!

The concept of creating a database whose sole purpose is to support the act of selling goods to customers and then wrapping that database with a copyright label - and then designing a charging regime that further deters those same customers from gaining access (so that dealers and independent workshops remain part of the sales process) is just plain wrong!! I'm aware that this forum has a large number of professional workshop owners, that are probably advantaged by VAG's practice, but that doesn't make the practice right!!

I don't agree with your hypothesis that simply because the database contains "merged information" it qualifies as being copyright-able, but even if you are correct (and again, I don't believe that you are - also IANAL with copyright Law expertise) - the fact that can be done doesn't excuse VAG's self serving greed in doing it.

Don

PS: and finally - I didn't get a chance to look at the links that were removed in Dave's post - was the information a straight-copy of VAG's database, or was it a "re-created" database? If the latter - why is it "illegal"? If the former, why aren't VAG's lawyers all over it - like a rash?
 
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   #51  

Uwe

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The concept of creating a database whose sole purpose is to support the act of selling goods to customers and then wrapping that database with a copyright label - and then designing a charging regime that further deters those same customers from gaining access (so that dealers and independent workshops remain part of the sales process) is just plain wrong!!
I'm not going to make ethical judgments here, but I'm pretty confident it is a "work" that qualifies for copyright protection under the law in most jurisdictions.

-Uwe-
 
   #52  

Jack@European_Parts

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PS: and finally - I didn't get a chance to look at the links that were removed in Dave's post - was the information a straight-copy of VAG's database, or was it a "re-created" database? If the latter - why is it "illegal"? If the former, why aren't VAG's lawyers all over it - like a rash?


Oh they are all over it when they have jurisdiction to do so & lately........ they've you could say......... been "preoccupied".

Should VAG make it available?............ I think so, because it would be in their best interest of selling parts......... but someone may think otherwise.

In the old days we just loaded the slide of the etka in the microfiche and it always worked well and it could be purchased for a fair price as can the windows version of etka now if buying a DVD set and dongle/hardlock USB.

Oh what other tool works with software and dongle key? ..........boy it just slipped my mind! :rolleyes:
 
   #53  

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If you're just trying to find VW/Audi part numbers, for free, some good (legit) sites are:

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/
http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com/

Diagrams and all. You can usually find it if you know what category the part is in and what terminology the manufacturer uses for it (as opposed to common names we all use for parts.)

They sell parts, so maybe buy something from them once in a while to make up for the times you find your part number and buy it cheaper elsewhere. :)

Of course there's also:

https://www.ecstuning.com/
https://www.fcpeuro.com/

Between cross-referencing those sites, and google, you can usually find just about any part.

Of course, there's also walking up to the parts counter at the dealership, but once again, make friends and buy something from them once in a while. Occasionally it's cheaper, even if you have to wait a few days.
 
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