NOT all FUELS are created equal!

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Jack@European_Parts

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Technical Service Bulletin Transaction No.: 2033846/3
00-14-03 - Fuel Additive to Help Prevent Sporadic Misfire Faults Release date: Feb 27, 2014
Condition
Model(s)
Year
Engine Code
Trans. Code
VIN Range From
VIN Range To

All
(Except Routan)
2006-2014
All Gasoline Engines
All
All
All

00 14 03 February 27, 2014 2033846 Supersedes V001402 dated January 25, 2013 to correct bulletin sequence number.
Fuel Additive to Help Prevent Sporadic Misfire Faults
A Volkswagen approved fuel additive is available to help remove and prevent deposits on fuel injectors and intake valves.
One or more of the following fault codes may be stored in the ECM Fault Memory:

DTC
Description

P0300
Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected

P0301-P0308
Cyl.1 Misfire Detected - Cyl.8 Misfire Detected

Technical Background
Fuel quality impacts the operating performance, efficiency and service life of the engine.The use of poor quality fuels may result in deposit build up on the fuel injectors and intake valves. This may result in a rough running condition, sporadic misfires, or cold start misfire faults storing in the ECM fault memory.
Production Solution
Not applicable.
Service
If sporadic cylinder misfire faults are found and a P130A Hide Cylinder fault is not present, the concern may be related to poor quality fuel and/or deposit build-up on the fuel injectors and intake valves.
With the fuel tank at least half full, pour 1 bottle of fuel additive part number G 001780M3 into the fuel tank and drive the vehicle with the transmission in the “S” (Sport) selection to help dissolve any deposits in the engine.
Note:
Only one bottle of fuel additive is covered under warranty.
If no concerns are found during the test drive, return the vehicle to the customer. Advise the customer to use quality detergent gasoline from a Top Tier fueling station as noted in their owner’s manual or in the 2014 VW Top Tier Fuel Brochure. If available, provide a printed copy of the brochure to the customer.
If misfire faults return during the test drive, follow Technical Bulletin 2033805 Engine, Misfire Diagnostic Aid to further diagnose the concern.

Tip:
Volkswagen recommends Top Tier detergent gasoline with additives that do not contain metal. If Top Tier fuel is not readily available, advise the customer that to help prevent this condition from reoccurring, fuel additive part number G 001780M3 may be used approximately every 3000 miles (5000 km) to help keep the fuel injectors and intake valves clean.
Depending on the severity of the case, the customer may need to add a second bottle of additive to help remove all deposits after driving approximately 100 miles.
For best results, the fuel tank should be at least half full when the cleaner is added. If there is less than half a tank of fuel when added, the additive will not be as effective.
The customer may purchase this fuel additive from the parts department, and should pour the additive into the fuel tank when re-fueling.
For more information on Top Tier Detergent Gasoline, please go to the official website: http://www.toptiergas.com.
Only use fuel additives approved by Volkswagen.
Warranty
To determine if this procedure is covered under Warranty, always refer to the Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual 1)

Model(s)
Year(s)
Eng. Code(s)
Trans. Code(s)
VIN Range From
VIN Range To

All (Except Routan)
2006-2014
All Gasoline Engines
All
All
All

SAGA Coding

Claim Type:
Use applicable Claim Type 1)

Service Number:
Damage
Code
HST
Damage Location (Depends on Service No.)

2440
0016
--
Use applicable when indicated in ElsaWeb (L/R)

Labor Operation 3): Fuel Additive
20103399 = 10 TU max.

Causal Part: Select Labor Operation
20103399

Diagnostic Time 4)

GFF Time expenditure
01500000 = 20 TU max.
YES

Road Test
01210004 = 10 TU max.
YES

Technical Diagnosis
01320000 = 00 TU max.
NO

Claim Comment: Input “As per Technical Bulletin 2033846” in comment section of Warranty Claim.

1) Vehicle may be outside any Warranty in which case this Technical Bulletin is informational only
2) Code per warranty vendor code policy.
3)Labor Time Units (TUs) are subject to change with ELSA updates.
4) Documentation required per Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual.

Required Parts and Tools
Part Description
Part Number
Quantity

Injector Cleaner
G 001780M3
1

2014 VW Top Tier Fuel Brochure
VWTOPTIERJAN14
1

No special tools required.
Additional Information
All part and service references provided in this Technical Bulletin are subject to change and/or removal. Always check with your Parts Dept. and Repair Manuals for the latest information.

© 2014 Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. All rights reserved. Information contained in this document is based on the latest information available at the time of printing and is subject to the copyright and other intellectual property rights of Volkswagen Group of America, Inc., its affiliated companies and its licensors. All rights are reserved to make changes at any time without notice. No part of this document may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, nor may these materials be modified or reposted to other sites, without the prior expressed written permission of the publisher.




 
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Jack@European_Parts

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http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit-control/



TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline Deposit Control Performance Standard Revision C-February 20151.1 Performance Description. This document describes the deposit control performance of an unleaded gasoline at the retail level that minimizes deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers.
All performance testing must be conducted at an independent, ISO 17025 accredited laboratory.
3. Definitions
3.1 A2LA – the American Association for Laboratory Accreditation
3.2 Independent Laboratory – a mechanical and/or chemical testing organization not associated with the business entity seeking TOP TIER™ Detergent Gasoline status, accredited by the A2LA for technical competence in mechanical and chemical testing in accordance with the latest version of ISO 17025, General Requirements for the Competence of Testing and Calibration Laboratories.
4. Standards.
4.1 Retail Gasoline Performance Standards. The deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline conforming to section 4 of this document shall be met at the retail level in all grades of gasoline sold by a fuel company in all marketing areas of a selected nation. In addition, conformance to the standards shall mean gasoline sold in the selected nation shall not contain metallic additives, including methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).
4.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 4.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.
4.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standard. All performance testing and fuel composition analysis shall be conducted by an Independent Laboratory. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below.
4.3.1 Intake Valve Keep Clean Initial Performance Standard.
4.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (4.3.1.2) and additive performance (4.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.
4.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

  1. Contain nominally 10.0% ± 1% by volume ethanol as measured by ASTM D 4815 or D 5845.
  2. Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 6729.
  3. Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 6729.
  4. Contain no more than 80 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453.
  5. Produce a 90% evaporated distillation temperature no less than 290°F as measured by ASTM D86.
  6. Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.
  7. A Certificate of Analysis showing both the detailed test fuel composition results and source should accompany the additive results package. This certificate should also contain the unwashed and washed gum level of the base fuel according to ASTM D381.
4.3.1.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 4.3.1.2 shall contain enough deposit control additive such that IVD is no more than 50 mg averaged over all intake valves. Results for individual valves and an average shall be reported. The unwashed gum level of the fuel containing deposit control additive shall be determined according to ASTM D 381 and reported.
4.3.2 Combustion Chamber Deposit Initial Performance Standard.
4.3.2.1 Test Method. Combustion chamber deposits (CCD) shall be collected and weighed along with IVD using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. ASTM D 6201 does not contain a procedure for collecting and measuring CCD. Adapting a scrape and weigh procedure developed by CARB is recommended (see referenced test method dated March 12, 1999). Results for individual cylinders and an average shall be reported.
4.3.2.2 Base Fuel. Combustion chamber deposits shall be measured for the base fuel from 4.3.1.2.
4.3.2.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 4.3.1.2 treated with additive at the concentration meeting the standard found in 4.3.1.3 shall not result in more than 140% of the average CCD weight for the base fuel without additive.
4.3.3 Intake Valve Sticking Initial Performance Standard.
4.3.3.1 Test Method. Intake valve sticking tendency shall be determined using either the 1.9 L Volkswagen engine (Wasserboxer according to CEC F-16-T-96) or the 5.0 L 1990-95 General Motors V-8 engine (SWRI IVS test). Two options are available for demonstrating intake valve sticking tendency.
4.3.3.2 Option 1. The valve-sticking tendency of the test fuel by itself will not have to be demonstrated prior to testing the candidate additive. The following shall be required of all tests:

  1. Test fuel shall be either the same as in 4.3.1.2 or CEC valve sticking reference fuel.
  2. Concentration of deposit control additive in the test fuel shall be at least twice the amount determined in 4.3.4.1.
  3. Test temperature shall be -20°C.
  4. Three 16-hr cold soak cycles, each followed by a compression pressure check, shall constitute a complete test.
4.3.3.2.1 Demonstration of Performance A pass shall result in no stuck valves during any of the three cold starts. A stuck valve is defined as one in which the cylinder pressure is less than 80% of the normal average cylinder compression pressure.
4.3.3.3 Option 2. The valve-sticking tendency of the test fuel together with an additive known to cause valve sticking shall be demonstrated prior to testing the candidate additive. The following shall be required of all tests:

  1. Test fuel shall be either the same as in 4.3.1.2 or CEC valve sticking test reference fuel.
  2. An additive known to cause valve sticking shall be selected, and, when blended into test fuel, shall demonstrate valve sticking tendency as follows: (a) for the Volkswagen engine, at least two valves shall be stuck; (b) for the GM engine, at least three valves shall be stuck.
  3. Tests demonstrating performance of the candidate additive shall be conducted at a concentration that is at least three times the amount determined in 4.3.1.3
  4. Test temperature shall be -20°C.
  5. One 16-hr cold soak cycle followed by a compression pressure check shall constitute a complete test.
4.3.3.3.1 Demonstration of Performance. A pass shall result in no stuck valves during the cold start. A stuck valve is defined as one in which cylinder compression is less than 80% of the normal average cylinder compression pressure.
5. Process to Attain TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline Status.
5.1 Submission of Test Results. A fuel company desiring TOP TIER™ Detergent Gasoline status shall forward the test results issued by the Independent Laboratory ("Test Results") to the following address:

Center for Quality Assurance
Attn: TOP TIER Licensing Program
4800 James Savage Road
Midland, MI 48642 USA
TopTier@CenterForQA.com

5.2 Notification of receipt. The Test Results shall be reviewed by GM Powertrain and, if deemed acceptable in its sole discretion, the fuel company will be provided a TOP TIER™ License Agreement for their execution. Only upon complete execution of the TOP TIER™ License Agreement by both the fuel company and GM shall the fuel company be entitled to begin use the TOP TIER™ name in connection with the distribution, promotion and sale of their gasoline, pursuant to the terms and conditions of the TOP TIER™ License Agreement.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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http://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/aaa-not-gasoline-created-equal/



[h=1]AAA: Not All Gasoline Created Equal


ORLANDO, Fla. (July 7, 2016) – New testing from AAA has uncovered significant differences in the quality of gasoline sold at fuel retailers in the United States. The independent laboratory testing compared gasolines that meet TOP TIER™ standards often marketed to consumers as having enhanced, engine-cleaning detergent additives with gasoline brands that do not participate in the automaker-backed program. Among brands tested, non-TOP TIER gasolines caused 19 times more engine deposits than TOP TIER brands after just 4,000 miles of simulated driving. Such carbon deposits are known to reduce fuel economy, increase emissions and negatively impact vehicle performance, particularly on newer vehicles. To protect vehicle investments, AAA urges drivers to use a gasoline that meets TOP TIER standards for engine cleanliness and performance.[/h]
Additional Resources


“AAA was surprised to learn the extent to which detergent additives impact gasoline quality,” revealed John Nielsen, AAA’s managing director of Automotive Engineering and Repair. “As advertised, tested TOP TIER gasolines kept engines remarkably cleaner than other fuels we tested.”
In response to increasing levels of carbon deposits in modern engine designs, the Environmental Protection Agency mandated a minimum level of detergent for all gasoline sold in the United States in 1996. However, some automakers believe the minimum does not go far enough to ensure optimal vehicle performance and their ability to meet increasingly-stringent fuel economy and emissions requirements. The TOP TIER program and performance standard were developed to guarantee that program participants’ gasoline meets stricter targets for engine cleanliness.
“When it comes to selecting a gasoline, automakers got it right – TOP TIER gasoline performs best,” continued Nielsen. “By selecting a quality gasoline, drivers can minimize engine deposits, increase vehicle performance and improve fuel economy.”
Despite the fact that two-thirds of U.S. drivers believe there is a difference in quality of gasoline sold by different gas stations, a AAA survey reveals that Americans value convenience and price over quality when it comes to selecting a gas station.

  • Three-quarters of U.S. drivers choose a gas station based on location (75 percent) or price (73 percent).
  • Nearly one-third (29 percent) of U.S drivers choose a gas station based on a rewards program.
  • Only 12 percent of U.S. drivers select a gas station based on whether the gasoline contains an enhanced detergent package.
  • Nearly half (47 percent) of U.S. drivers do not regularly buy gasoline that contains an enhanced detergent additive.
  • Men (44 percent) are more likely than women (26 percent) to regularly buy a gasoline that contains an enhanced detergent package, as are baby boomers (41 percent) compared to millennials (32 percent).
“Americans are six times more likely to choose a gas station based on the price of gasoline rather than the quality of the fuel,” continued Nielsen. “Since TOP TIER gasoline is widely available and only an average of three cents more per gallon, AAA urges drivers to reconsider their priorities when selecting a gas station.”
To ensure a gas station sells a high quality gasoline, consumers should research the fuel options near them. According to TOP TIER, one-third of gas stations meet the TOP TIER standard for fuel quality. Retailers interested in participating in the TOP TIER program can find additional information here.
“Fortunately, consumers can reverse some engine deposits simply by switching gasoline brands,” said Greg Brannon, AAA’s director of Automotive Engineering. “After a few thousand miles with TOP TIER gasoline, performance issues like rough idling or hesitation during acceleration can often be resolved.”
For testing purposes, AAA selected TOP TIER and non-TOP TIER gasolines from a southern Texas market that represents the type of gasoline sold across the majority of the United States. To measure intake valve and combustion chamber deposits, AAA engaged the services of an independent International Standards Organization 17025 certified engine testing lab to perform an ASTM International standard test on fuels.
To evaluate consumer gasoline preferences, AAA contracted with a national research company to perform a telephone survey of 1,002 adults (18 years of age and older) living in the continental United States. Survey results are an accurate representation of the total continental U.S. population, 18 years of age and older, with a margin of error of +/- 3.1 percent at a 95 percent confidence level.
For additional information about fuel quality, including the full test report and fact sheet, visit NewsRoom.AAA.com.
As North America’s largest motoring and leisure travel organization, AAA provides more than 56 million members with travel, insurance, financial and automotive-related services. Since its founding in 1902, the not-for-profit, fully tax-paying AAA has been a leader and advocate for the safety and security of all travelers. Motorists can map a route, identify gas prices, find discounts, book a hotel and access AAA roadside assistance with the AAA Mobile app for iPhone, iPad and Android. Learn more at AAA.com/mobile. AAA clubs can be visited on the Internet at AAA.com.
 
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Eric

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Yeah I'm sure top tier gas and VW's additive do a ton for direct injection carbon deposits on the intake valves :D But it's easier to tell the customer that someone else's gasoline is the issue than to own up to the problem and offer free lifetime cleaning on all FSI engines, isn't it?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Yeah blame it on the gas company and pass the buck huh?......... what a joke!



[SIZE=-1]Technical Service Bulletin [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]01-15-03 - Gasoline Quality [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]All except Routan[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Production Solution [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]No production change required. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]•May contain water. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Year[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2000-2015[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]•May have unique color and odor. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]•May contain sediments and suspended matter. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Eng. Code[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]All Gasoline [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Engines[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]•May appear cloudy and (after settling) may show signs of separation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]76 Stations Mobil [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Trans. Code[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]All[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Technical Background [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Condition may be caused by use of contaminated gasoline. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Condition may be caused by use of gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]VIN Range From[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]All[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]VIN Range To[/SIZE]
Page 1 of 2
[SIZE=-1]Transaction No.:Â [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2014815/9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Release date:Â Mar 26, 2015 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]All[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]01 15 03 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]January 20, 2015[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] 2014815 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Supersedes Technical Bulletin V011408 dated March 26, 2014 due to additional model [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]year applicability. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Gasoline Quality[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The use of contaminated gasoline, seasonal fuel changes (summer/winter fuel) or gasoline with a low content of deposit control [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]additives may result in one or more of the following conditions: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Excessive accumulation of deposits on intake valves, intake manifold, fuel injectors and combustion chambers. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Engine runs rough after cold start. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Excessive engine cranking time. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Stumbles while driving. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Rough engine idle. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Loss of engine performance. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Poor fuel economy. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Conditions may be severe enough to illuminate the MIL in conjunction with storage in the ECM data memory of DTCs for [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]misfire (example: P0300, P030x) and / or lean fuel system (example: P0171, P0174, P1128, P1130, P1136, P1138). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Service [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1. If use of contaminated gasoline is suspected:[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Consider advising the customer to change gasoline source (brand/gas station). Contaminated gasoline may exhibit one or more [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]of the following characteristics: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Â [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]If use of gasoline with a low content of deposit control additives is suspected:[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Recommend to the customer the exclusive use of [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]TOP TIER[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Detergent Gasoline. These products provide improved deposit [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]control performance. Current [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]TOP TIER[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Gasoline retailers offering this product in all their octane grades include the following [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]brands: [/SIZE]

01-15-03 - Gasoline Quality(2014815/9)
[SIZE=-1]Aloha Petroleum Ohana Fuels [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]BP Petro-Canada [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Chevron Phillips 66 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Chevron Canada Puma Energy, Caribe, LLC [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Conoco Quick Trip [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Costco Road Ranger [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]CountryMark Scheirl Oil [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Entec Stations Shell [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Esso Shell Canada [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Exxon SuperAmerica [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Hawaii Fueling Network (HFN) Texaco [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Holiday Stationstores Tri-Par Oil Co. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Kwik Trip / Kwik Star U.S. Oil [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]MFA Oil Co. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Warranty [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Information only. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Required Parts and Tools [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]No Special Parts required. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]No Special Tools required. [/SIZE]

Page 2 of 2
[SIZE=-1]Â Â [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Tip:[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]For more information on TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, please see www.toptiergas.com.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]For the fast removal of existing carbon deposits from injectors, combustion chambers and intake valves (intake valves apply to [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]MPI engines only) gasoline additive G 001780M3 Â can be used. Mix additive directly with gasoline in fuel tank following mix [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]ratio described on additive container. (example 20 ml per 10 liters of gasoline, 150 ml per 20 gallons of gasoline).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Additional Information [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]All part and service references provided in this Technical Bulletin are subject to change and/or removal. Always check [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]with your Parts Dept. and Repair Manuals for the latest information.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]© 2015 Volkswagen Group of America, Inc.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] All rights reserved. Information contained in this document is based on the latest [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]information available at the time of printing and is subject to the copyright and other intellectual property rights of Volkswagen [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Group of America, Inc., its affiliated companies and its licensors. All rights are reserved to make changes at any time without [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]notice. No part of this document may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, nor may these materials be modified or reposted to other sites, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]without the prior expressed written permission of the publisher. [/SIZE]
 
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delboy

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Yep time for a change in test engine

Soon as I started reading the test criteria I was thinking this is outdated, and no matter how much Shell V power I pour down its neck there is going to be no difference to my carbon build up.

Same as all the snake oil treatments for carbon cleaning, another bloody rip off. :mad:
 
   #8  

Jack@European_Parts

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Yep
time for a change in test engine
Soon as I started reading the test criteria I was thinking this is outdated, and no matter how much Shell V power I pour down its neck there is going to be no difference to my carbon build up.

Same as all the snake oil treatments for carbon cleaning, another bloody rip off. :mad:
Ahhh yup........because a stratified engine has fuel injected directly to the combustion chamber.
It doesn't have a scrubbing or washing effect on carbon, & which is pushed into the intake port from dirty fire from the valve over lap point.

No matter how many additives you put in the fuel you can not defeat this in the stratified process.

Delboy gets an A++
 
   #9  

PetrolDave

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Soon as I started reading the test criteria I was thinking this is outdated, and no matter how much Shell V power I pour down its neck there is going to be no difference to my carbon build up.

Same as all the snake oil treatments for carbon cleaning, another bloody rip off. :mad:
Agree 100%, yet people who own especially a B7 RS4 keep searching for a way to prevent carbon buildup and just won't listen when long term owners (I owned one for 10 years) tell them that carbon buildup happens, so any cleaning they do is pointless and would need to be repeated every 5000 miles or so.
 
   #10  

Jack@European_Parts

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Agree 100%, yet people who own especially a B7 RS4 keep searching for a way to prevent carbon buildup and just won't listen when long term owners (I owned one for 10 years) tell them that carbon buildup happens, so any cleaning they do is pointless and would need to be repeated every 5000 miles or so.
Petrol Dave also gets an A+

I think two ways can help this problem..............

Chemically remove and fog the intake every 10 K.
Use a non synthetic oil changed more frequently, & that sticks to the cylinder walls better, so you don't lose the compression by means of the oil being contaminated by blow by gases/fuel and water or remediated into the combustion process.

When a oil remediation process uses a "labyrinth"............ you have a problem!
 
   #11  

dafrazi

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I discussed this with my local VW dealer about a year ago. The service writers and techs at the desk all laughed. They thought the can of fuel system treatment was silly but said it is what "VW" recommends. I thought their choice of words said volumes about their true feelings.

VW is not alone in there denial. During my last car shopping crusade, I asked the service writers at the Audi, Cadillac, Ford, Mazda, Volvo, Honda and BMW dealers about carbon buildup and they all said it wasn't an issue in their direct injection engines if you used high quality gasoline.
 
   #12  

Jack@European_Parts

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I discussed this with my local VW dealer about a year ago. The service writers and techs at the desk all laughed. They thought the can of fuel system treatment was silly but said it is what "VW" recommends. I thought their choice of words said volumes about their true feelings.

VW is not alone in there denial. During my last car shopping crusade, I asked the service writers at the Audi, Cadillac, Ford, Mazda, Volvo, Honda and BMW dealers about carbon buildup and they all said it wasn't an issue in their direct injection engines if you used high quality gasoline.
Pass the buck .............I call BS on the OEM's!

All gasoline has to meet a specific EPA criteria to be sold, so therefore manufacture's shouldn't be building cars that require an alternate specification above what is required in mass distribution or available to the customer.
 
   #13  

Jack@European_Parts

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[h=2]http://www.oilem.com/turbo-fuel-str...irect-port-injection-carbon-build-up-problem/

Turbo Fuel Stratified Injection (TFSI) & Direct Port Injection Carbon Build-up Problem[/h][h=3][/h]
The Problem of Turbo Fuel Stratified Injection (TFSI) & Direct Port Injection Carbon Buildup
The problem with carbon buildup on the back face and stem area of intake valves in direct fuel injection petrol engines is not news. Fortunately, a major breakthrough has occurred recently on the buildup issue and the exact cause of the problem has been isolated.
Carbon buildup in direct fuel injection engines running on petrol became prominent in 2007 and 2008 when the engine warning codes and Malfunction Indicator Lights (MIL) began to light up in many vehicles with direct injection engines, including the BMW Mini, and those made by Audi and Volkswagen.
The presence of excessive carbon buildup has generally been attributed to the direct port injection design. This design enables a more complete and efficient combustion process because fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber rather than behind the inlet valve, which is where it is injected in conventional port injection designs. However, with this design any cleaning capability of the fuel — or more importantly, the fuel additives — is non-existent in the inlet tract because the liquid fuel never comes into contact with the back of the intake valves. The cleaning effect on the front of the valves on the combustion chamber side, on the combustion chamber surfaces, and on the exhaust valves is easily achieved as a consequence of the clean-burning characteristics of high-quality fuel and/or additives. But the downstream surfaces of the inlet valves are left untouched, and therefore accumulate deposits. The volume of these deposits eventually alters the air-flow dynamics within the inlet tract, which in turn inhibits airflow and ultimately reduces volumetric efficiency considerably.
The impact of this is more noticeable on normally aspirated engines as they are less able to overcome air-flow restriction, whereas forced induction engines can overcome minor restrictions as air is “forced” into the combustion chamber under pressure.
The images below illustrate the direct fuel injection and port fuel injection design. You will notice on the port injection design that fuel is injected behind the inlet valve and the mixture of fuel and air is then drawn into the combustion chamber as the valve opens. This is not as efficient as a direct injection design but it helps prevent deposit buildup on the intake valves.
Port Fuel Injection vs Direct Fuel Injection

So what has changed?
A major breakthrough recently on the buildup issue has led to the exact cause of the problem being isolated. The port injection design is actually not the cause but merely the reason why the issue cannot be controlled and managed through normal fuel-derived cleaning processes.
It is now understood why even the most advanced post-combustion cleaning fuel additives or solvent-based cleaning through the fuel /air intake tract have had little effect. Furthermore, it also is understood why rerouting the byproduct from the crankcase breather into segregated catch cans or using water/methanol injection are of limited value when it comes to reducing carbonaceous buildup in the inlet port and inlet valve surfaces.
Post combustion cleaning additives, solvent-based intake cleaning, and water/methanol injection are not effective because the carbon species responsible for the buildup are predominantly from lube oil and produce active but very dense layers of carbons. In some cases even grit blasting techniques have failed to remove the buildup because of the integrity, toughness, and adherence of the deposits. In contrast to these deposits from lube oil, ones resulting from the decomposition of fuel tend to produce a satin black buildup that can be scraped off easily with a finger nail. This type of deposit can be removed with fuel-borne additive technology. However, the deposits formed from the decomposition of lubricating oils during engine operation have been found far more difficult to remove. This deposition and growth of carbonaceous debris has been demonstrated on a test engine with inspection ports positioned in the inlet tract.
In the pictures below you will notice the solidity of the lube-based buildup on the inlet valve of an Audi RS4 (4.2 V8 TFSI) versus the fuel-only carbon buildup on an EGR valve in a different vehicle. The carbon on the latter is easily removed either manually or via fuel additive technology that is still active post combustion.

Audi RS4 Inlet Valve Carbon Buildup

EGR Valve Part Cleaned

Oil on valve stems – It should be noted that the presence of lubricating oil in this location is normal. Having a controlled amount of oil there keeps the valve stems lubricated. One reason why NA engines tend to suffer more from inlet-valve deposits is simply that in the created vacuum, the oil from the valve stems is more difficult to “control” because it is sucked through by the pressure differential existing between inlet manifold and the atmosphere. In comparison, forced-induction engines (turbo or supercharged) generally operate with the intake manifold under positive pressure so less oil is pulled through the seals.
So if the small amount of oil bypassing the valve stem seals is normal, and indeed required, then why is there an excessive buildup of deposits on the valves? One hypothesis is that:
The oil is being broken down by the catalytic (reacting) action of the materials used to manufacture or coat the valve stems. In particular, nickel and chrome alloys. This pyrolytic decomposition is widely recognised in the industrial power generation sector where hydrocarbons are in contact with superalloys used in the construction of combustors, nozzle guide vanes, and exhaust components.
In layman’s terms, this means the materials used to manufacture and harden the valves are reacting with the lubricating oil and creating an aggressive bond between the lube and the valves!
Although this hypothesis seeks to explain the mechanism behind the formation of these carbonaceous deposits, there are still many challenges ahead. As carbon is the constituent part of all lubricating oils and fuels and each of these is fundamentally required by engines in their present form, a method of reducing or eliminating carbon buildup must be sought.
Once oil has initially decomposed and formed a bonded carbon deposit with the valves, it remains chemically active. This allows further carbons — whether from engine oil or recirculating fuel emissions – to adhere to the existing mass with ease.
Some manufactures have incorporated a more complicated fuel system with a combined port/direct port engine design to retain the benefits of direct port injection whilst injecting some fuel behind the valves to help keep them clean. However, for existing direct port engine designs there are few viable options. One can change the valve material and/or use a coating that doesn’t catalyse with carbons or enable the adherence of carbon, or introduce an additive pack that can inhibit carbon formation.
Valves have to work very hard and current valve materials are chosen for their toughness and durability. Any replacement material and/or coating would have to at least share or improve upon these properties. There are proposals in the area of material and surface coating choice but we are not at liberty to share them at this stage.
Other theories consider that at certain engine operating conditions there is a small amount of backwash as the early injection of fuel occurs whilst the inlet valve is still open. The contribution of EGR also needs to be considered. For compression-ignition engines – diesels – the heavy contamination of inlet tracts with a dense, but greasy, carbon-based deposit is well known. There are many EGR deletion methods that focus on the prevention of this deposit buildup, which as in the case of their petrol-fuelled counterparts, can seriously impede the flow of inlet air to the combustion chamber.
Operating temperatures of engines have tended to increase with commensurate increases in combustion chamber parts. And heat soaking on shutdown, as well as extensive idling periods, have been shown to affect the amount of buildup on upper cylinder parts and valve gear.
Regardless, the issue of removing existing deposits does not go away. The use of more advanced polar solvents will be investigated but this process is still constrained by the hardness of the carbon buildup, as well as the risk of unmanageable chunks of carbon being dislodged and damaging valves or cylinder bores during engine operation. Managing the gradual fluidising of deposits so that they can be safely consumed during combustion is a significant challenge.
There is some data to suggest that the use of certain oil additives or group IV and above base stock oils (pure PAO, esters, etc.) reduces the speed of buildup. However, this is not fully substantiated as back-to-back tests were not conducted on the exact same vehicle. The tests show visual buildup compared to other similar vehicles of similar mileage that are not using additives or group IV and above engine oils. Furthermore, some of the PAO-derived oils are more readily broken down by catalytic action and tend to have better high-temperature resistance to degradation, thus keeping a fluid film on the valve stems where decomposition may occur. One area of interest is the use of mineral oils containing carbon fluidising additives as found in many two-stroke engine oils; however these compositions generally do not meet the lubrication specifications required by modern engines.
Archoil® has been using proprietary esters and fluidising technology for some time and we have initiated further tests relating to this technology and direct port engines. We will keep you posted as soon as we have more information.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/05/ask-an-engineer-gdi-problems-in-a-nutshell/






“Ask an Engineer” is hosted by Andrew Bell, a mechanical engineer and car enthusiast. Andrew has his MASc in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Toronto, and has worked on Formula SAE teams, as well as alternative fuel technologies in Denmark and Canada. Andrew’s column will explore engineering topics in the most accessible manner possible


Even though every other car nowadays seems to offer gasoline direct injection (GDI), Mercedes-Benz was the first to exploit this technology in the 1955 300SL. But it wasn’t until the mid-1990’s that other automakers started to use GDI in mass produced vehicles. GDI promises marginal increases in fuel economy (3% reduction in BSFC ) but its real benefits include reduced cold start/low load emissions and higher power outputs. While the technology offers engineers incredible flexibility from an engine design perspective, it is not without faults. As with any new technology it is important to understand both the positives and negatives before you choose, say a compact car with GDI or one regular fuel injection. If you want to keep your car for a long period of time, the long-term reliability of a GDI engine is an important factor.
The effect of increased percentages of ethanol on injector longevity.
The percentage of ethanol in gasoline at the pumps is steadily increasing. Ethanol has a tendency to increase the corrosion rate of the various metals used in an engine. Add this to the elevated fuel pressure and the fact the injector is directly exposed to in-cylinder combustion events, and you have a recipe for a recall. Furthermore, these injectors are very sensitive to fuel quality due to outrageously tight tolerances. It is very important to use high quality fuels and keep the filters clean.
Higher pressures in general.
GDI requires significantly higher fuel inlet pressures than port injection. This puts a great deal of strain on every piece of the fuel delivery chain. This is not a problem on a new engine. 50,000 miles down the road, and it may be. Manufacturers have been relatively proactive in this department by specifying robust, stainless steel fuel lines and connections. That hasn’t stopped fuel pump recalls from already occurring
Carbon buildup on intake valves.
This is the big problem with most current GDI engines. Due to modern unburned hydrocarbon (UHC) regulations, vapors from the crankcase are usually vented into the intake stream in order to prevent oil droplets from escaping through the exhaust. In a port injection engine, these droplets are ‘washed off’ the neck of the intake valve by a relatively constant stream of gasoline droplets. In a GDI engine, the gasoline doesn’t touch intake side of the valve. As a result, the droplets have a tendency to bake onto the valve and significantly reduce performance. To add to this effect, many advanced GDI engines also include exhaust gas recirculation in order to lean out the combustion mixture and reduce in-cylinder temperatures for certain combustion modes (reducing NOx emissions). Since GDI combustion has the ability to produce far more soot than premixed combustion (port injection), the problem is magnified.
Even more alarming is that these deposits can dislodge and damage other downstream components (turbochargers, catalytic converters, etc.). Manufacturers have added systems to capture these oil droplets and particulates, but no system is 100% effective. As a result, there are many disappointed early adopters with large repair bills. Even diesel engines haven’t been immune to these issues.
The reason these issues have slipped through to production is that they won’t show up in a 500,000 mile torture test. These types of issues will appear after years of short trips (preventing the engine from reaching operating temperature), bad batches of fuel, etc. As we approach the efficiency limits of the internal combustion engine, the engines themselves (and associated support systems) have become more complex. As with the transition from carburetors to electronic fuel injection, there will be some overlap between relatively bombproof port injected engines and the unproven, first-generation GDI engines.
 
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   #14  

Jack@European_Parts

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Now that we have established the fact that the gasoline Top Tier additives, or lower octane leads to higher combustion temps, and don't do a thing for the intake, and what happens due to blow by in the oil channeling down the intake valves in aforementioned post...........!

Now does anyone agree with me why the need for segregated oil sumps for turbo's, and the significant benefit to chains or carbon deposit control from non synthetic oils?

Less blow by....... due to ring seal and valve stem seals stops this as much as by 75%.

Additionally I just don't see why the OEM's don't install a redundant secondary valve stem seal, & with scrapper drain channel, to deviate the oil from the stem to the sump.

Less is more for over engineered ideas!

NostraJackAss Has Spoken!
 
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Jetta 97

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Jack I agree with this , specially Diesel fuel. I use on My TDI only Shell, or Valero( Valero Only in Texas) .

But also it has to do with Octane , in Europe you can not find anything less then 95.So this is #1 problem here in USA.
Second thing is that most of the people drives like old lady , Specially turbo engine. Turbo means Power, Mean get on it and drive it like you stole it .
Third thing is that 70% people use 87 to save money , but they actually wasting money.
I had customer that was using 87 on 2.5L engine, and I told him to try for month 93, and after month he call me and he was so happy on phone, I asked hem what up, and he said my car drives like never before, it has so much better performance, and here comes best part, he said I saved $25 this month in fuel( he drives every month almost same distance) , so with 93 his mpg went up, much less waste of the fuel and money .And one more good thing is that with 93 carbon build much less then with 87.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Jack I agree with this , specially Diesel fuel. I use on My TDI only Shell, or Valero( Valero Only in Texas) .

But also it has to do with Octane , in Europe you can not find anything less then 95.So this is #1 problem here in USA.
Second thing is that most of the people drives like old lady , Specially turbo engine. Turbo means Power, Mean get on it and drive it like you stole it .
Third thing is that 70% people use 87 to save money , but they actually wasting money.
I had customer that was using 87 on 2.5L engine, and I told him to try for month 93, and after month he call me and he was so happy on phone, I asked hem what up, and he said my car drives like never before, it has so much better performance, and here comes best part, he said I saved $25 this month in fuel( he drives every month almost same distance) , so with 93 his mpg went up, much less waste of the fuel and money .And one more good thing is that with 93 carbon build much less then with 87.

Yup Marin , I said that! post 14

Now that we have established the fact that the gasoline Top Tier additives, or lower octane leads to higher combustion temps, and don't do a thing for the intake, and what happens due to blow by in the oil channeling down the intake valves in aforementioned post...........!

That and there are people making videos online or on the news that say running the lowest possible octane won't hurt anything in the long run + claims of output.

This guy needs a lesson in the follow through of what happens, not just what an adaption completes.




FLAT OUT BS

Knock sensors re-curve ignition timing to reduce knock, however, you also have less output, MPG loss & increased emissions due to increased heat!

HEAT BREAKS DOWN OIL EVEN IF SYN!

I don't think its fair to blame the oil companies...........
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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About 5 years ago, I took a CBFA 2.0 and modified it for lab purposes.

We did this to see the benefits of dual injection by installing a 1.8T intake, with a segregated fuel rail.

This allowed the second set of fuel injectors to wash the valves, and optimize power output when in a proper RPM range, & while using the stratified injection during critical emission needs.

This with the aid of a segregated synthetic sump for turbo, allowed for the engine to run on SAE oil.

This reduced, & significantly produced less NOX due to curved detonation, and lowered the need for still not require an EGR system; further it lowered detonation temps, or scavenger fires from poor oil remediation.

Performance rose, with lowered SMOG output, and MPG under controlled speeds improved by almost 10 MPG!

Now this was tested as time went by for wear for endurance, not just what a new engine will do!

Power units need to be designed to the fuel specs which are available legally, and last past the specified warranty period for SMOG.

It can be done......... and it should be done!

All OEM's........... I'm calling you OUT! I order you to do it!

NostraJackAss Has Spoken!
 
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delboy

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Petrol Dave also gets an A+

I think two ways can help this problem..............

Chemically remove and fog the intake every 10 K.
Use a non synthetic oil changed more frequently, & that sticks to the cylinder walls better, so you don't lose the compression by means of the oil being contaminated by blow by gases/fuel and water or remediated into the combustion process.

When a oil remediation process uses a "labyrinth"............ you have a problem!
Can you share more detail with your thoughts running non synth oil and any thoughts on its suitability for the NA V10?

Thanks
 
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