1.6TDI Engine Misfires and Stalls when Idle

   #1  

airbus

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Hi All,

I have a 2010 1.6TDI VW Golf Bluemotion, engine CAYC with 99K miles on the clock. I have had an issue with this car engine recently and hope someone can assist please.
Until today, the car engine (when cold) started and then the idle revs fluctuated occasionally between 800-1200rpm until the engine has warmed up a little (2 minutes or so). Here's what I did today whilst investigating the issue...

All the output tests were completed successfully in 01-Engine module with Passes where appropriate.

I then went into Basic Settings and cycled through the various options and ran them.



Unfortunately by doing this I have made the problem a whole lot worse. The car now starts, shoots up to 1200rpm, down to around 600rpm, up and down and often stalls at idle when cold before attempting a restart. Oh dear.:(

No fault codes are present before or after my messing.

I am wondering what I have done wrong and if there is any way to back-track on what I did. One of the things I clicked on was 'adapting injector minimum deviation quantity'. This just revved the engine constantly between approx 2000-3200rpm for 10 minutes or so before I gave up on this and went to the next option. Would I mess up settings for injection deviation by doing this? The measuring values show negligible deviations on all 4 cylinders but I am looking for anything right now before I go down the mechanical route

My engine ECU software is up to date at version 9970. I have also checked with the dealer whether there are any outstanding workshop campaigns on my engine part number (03L 906 023 DQ) and VIN including TPI 23F7 and the dealer said that TPI doesn't affect my vehicle. This TPI addresses misfires and juddering at idle and I believe it involves changing the ECU which to me would cost plenty of $$$. Before I become committed to going down this route (and since the dealer says my VIN is not part of the recall), I am trying to figure out if it's something else I have done to make it worse...

Any help would be great. Thanks.


Code:
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


VIN: WVWZZZ1KZBWxxxxxx License Plate: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 1K (7N0)
Scan: 01 03 08 09 10 15 16 17 19 25 2E 42 44 46 52 56 61 62 72 77
         

VIN: WVWZZZ1KZBWxxxxxx 

01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: OK 0000
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
10-Park/Steer Assist -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
2E-Media Player 3 -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: OK 0000
61-Battery Regul. -- Status: OK 0000
62-Door, Rear Left -- Status: OK 0000
72-Door, Rear Right -- Status: OK 0000
77-Telephone -- Status: OK 0000
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine (J623-CAYC)       Labels: 03L-906-023-CAY.clb
   Part No SW: 03L 906 023 DQ    HW: 03L 906 023 A
   Component: 1,6l R4 CR td H23 9970
   Revision: --H23---    Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 00114034032501080000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DQ 003011
   ROD: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DQ.rod
   VCID: 78D9DB3DC3D22BDEA37-802D

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels: 1K0-907-379-60EC1F.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 AT    HW: 1K0 907 379 AT
   Component: ESP MK60EC1   H30 0105  
   Revision: 00H30001    
   Coding: 133B200D09230002C81004EA90200091310000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 84213FCD071AFF3E3FF-80D1

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC (J301)       Labels: 3C8-907-336.clb
   Part No SW: 3C8 907 336 AB    HW: 3C8 907 336 AB
   Component: Climatic      H14 0305  
   Revision: 00009001    
   Coding: 0000000003
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Climatic A01005
   ROD: EV_ClimaBasis_SE36.rod
   VCID: 6DF7FA69BC909E76401-8038

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels: 1K0-937-08x-09.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 937 084 D    HW: 1K0 937 084 D
   Component: BCM PQ35  B   103 0615  
   Revision: 00103 AD    
   Coding: 48180A3A8823F1C040080080340000E443510088436D8160648087200041
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 2F4B20617E1C2C6632D-807A

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1K2 955 119 F  Labels: 1KX-955-119.CLB
   Component: Wischer 27051  21  0512 
   Coding: 009F95

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1K0 955 559 AH  Labels: 1K0-955-559-AG.CLB
   Component: RLS 040610 05  54  0403 
   Coding: 0330AD

   Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1K8 951 171 
   Component: DWA-Sensor 00  001 0104 

   Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1K8 951 605 A
   Component: LIN BACKUP HO  H11 9004 

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 10: Park/Steer Assist (J446)       Labels: 3C8-919-475.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 919 475 C    HW: 5K0 919 475 
   Component: PARKHILFE 8K  H07 0008  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: 12991009638098
   Coding: 100001
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 3645150581461DAE71B-8063

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags (J234)       Labels: 5K0-959-655.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 959 655 D    HW: 5K0 959 655 D
   Component: AirbagVW10    037 0606  
   Serial number: 003FKRA8NJXT  
   Coding: 00003133
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360 A01011
   ROD: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360.rod
   VCID: 3B530431B264C0C68E5-806E

   Crash sensor for side airbag; driver side: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354     HW: 5K0 959 354 
   Component: S.Sens.Fahr.V  H01 ---- 
   Serial number: 3572MSME32216253ZZZH

   Crash sensor for side airbag; passenger side: 
   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354     HW: 5K0 959 354 
   Component: S.Sens.Beif.V  H01 ---- 
   Serial number: 3582MSME49596553ZZZ/

   Crash sensor for side airbag; rear driver side: 
   Component: S.Sens.Fahr.H  --- ---- 
   Serial number: 3512QSME3C306029ZZZQ

   Crash sensor for side airbag; rear passenger side: 
   Component: S.Sens.Beif.H  --- ---- 
   Serial number: 3522QSME3635614EZZZY

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel (J527)       Labels: 5K0-953-569.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 953 507 BC    HW: 5K0 953 549 E
   Component: Lenks.Modul   007 0080  
   Revision: --------    Serial number:  90440JF4000XU
   Coding: 1082140000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_SMLSNGKUDS A05001
   ROD: EV_SMLSNGKUDS_SE36.rod
   VCID: 72CDE915A5AE418E9D3-8027

   Multi Function Steering Wheel Control Module: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 3C8 959 537 D    HW: 3C8 959 537 D
   Component: E221__MFL-TK6  H06 0022 
   Serial number: 70000000000000012586
   Coding: E20000

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments (J285)       Labels: 5K0-920-xxx-17.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 920 971 A    HW: 5K0 920 971 A
   Component: KOMBI         H03 0406  
   Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 170B00
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09 A04089
   ROD: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09_VW21.rod
   VCID: 2D773A697C105E76001-8078

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 7N0-907-530-V1.clb
   Part No SW: 7N0 907 530 A    HW: 1K0 907 951 
   Component: J533  Gateway   H25 0602  
   Revision:   H25       Serial number: 290510F2000109
   Coding: E9A07F0600061204000003
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 2E753D65B916256E39B-807B

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer (J334)       Labels: 5K0-920-xxx-25.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 953 234     HW: 5K0 953 234 
   Component: IMMO          H03 0406  
   Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 000000
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09 A03008
   ROD: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09_SE36.rod
   VCID: EAFD71750D7E094EA53-80BF

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 2E: Media Player 3 (J650)       Labels: 5N0-035-342.lbl
   Part No SW: 5N0 035 342 C    HW: 5N0 035 342 C
   Component: SG EXT.PLAYER H13 0111  
   Revision: A1001003    Serial number: 7668119412    
   Coding: 010000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 277BC84156EC7426FAD-8072

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver        Labels: 1K0-959-701-MIN3.lbl
   Part No SW: 5K0 959 701 B    HW: 5K0 959 701 B
   Component: Tuer-SG         009 2114  
   Coding: 0131764
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 314F2619A8283A96249-8064

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist        Labels: 1Kx-909-14x-44.clb
   Part No: 1K0 909 144 J
   Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl. 69     3001  
   Revision: 00H17000    
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 314F2619A8283A96249-8064

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass.        Labels: 1K0-959-702-MAX3.lbl
   Part No SW: 5K0 959 702 C    HW: 5K0 959 702 C
   Component: Tuer-SG         009 2114  
   Coding: 0132020
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 33432C1152340886565-8066

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio (J0503)       Labels: 5M0-035-1xx-56.clb
   Part No SW: 3C8 035 195 A    HW: 3C8 035 195 A
   Component: Radio RCD510  040 0166  
   Revision: 00000001    Serial number: VWZ1Z3K6478048
   Coding: 0100040004
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 2665C54551E66D2EC1B-8073

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 61: Battery Regul. (J840)       Labels: 1K0-907-534.clb
   Part No SW: 7N0 907 534     HW: 1K0 907 951 
   Component: Batt.regelung H25 0602  
   Serial number: 290510F2000109
   Coding: 030B185A
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: F1CF661928A8FA96E49-80A4

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 1K0 915 181 C    HW: 1K0 915 181 A
   Component: J367-BDM  H07 0125 

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 62: Door, Rear Left        Labels: 1K0-959-703-GEN3.lbl
   Part No SW: 5K0 959 703 C    HW: 5K0 959 703 C
   Component: Tuer-SG         007 2101  
   Coding: 0131216
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 1012552
   VCID: 34412F0D573A0FBE4FF-8061

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 72: Door, Rear Right        Labels: 1K0-959-704-GEN3.lbl
   Part No SW: 5K0 959 704 C    HW: 5K0 959 704 C
   Component: Tuer-SG         007 2101  
   Coding: 0131216
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 1012552
   VCID: 354712095C4016B6781-8060

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 77: Telephone (J412)       Labels: 7P6-035-730.clb
   Part No SW: 7P6 035 730 B    HW: 7P6 035 730 B
   Component: TELEFON       H05 0440  
   Revision: 1B001001    Serial number: 00007668036283
   Coding: 0A01000000010101
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: UHVNA A01007
   ROD: UHVNA.rod
   VCID: 314F261960283A96249-8064

No fault code found.

End   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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   #2  

Jack@European_Parts

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Please verify fuel temp/coolant sensor operation and linear to cycle of warm up.
Verify the MAF as well or opening or stuck EGR.
Log the data.
 
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airbus

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Please verify fuel temp/coolant sensor operation and linear to cycle of warm up.
Verify the MAF as well or opening or stuck EGR.
Log the data.
Hi, I will do thanks.

MAF & EGR Specified/Actual consistent, I will check up on fuel temp/coolant sensor. Can simply going into Basic settings mess things up...? I read that Min. Qty adaptation of injection valves (MFMA) must be done after successful adaptation of new ECU software version. Can this be done through VCDS for UDS protocol engines? Thanks.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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It should I imagine....did you set the adp for the injector calibrations in new controller?
 
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airbus

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It should I imagine....did you set the adp for the injector calibrations in new controller?
Couldn't see a setting for that in VCDS? In the meantime, I have been to the dealer and paid for this to be done.

Any noticeable changes since the alleged calibration. I had pinking upon acceleration before, I don't since this calibration was done. Is there any way I can check that the dealer has actually done this through VCDS? I think they have done something because of the less 'pinking'.

Unfortunately, I now get the revs still fluctuating wildly when the revs are set to around 800-900rpm, they then fluctuate between 600 and 1200rpm constantly. It is more pronounced when the engine is cold. Nearly disappears when engine hot with very slight fluctuation.

Coolant temperature whilst at operating spec is between 88-90C. Fuel temperature is 31C and Outside air temperature is 17C.

Any advice would be great, thanks.
 
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airbus

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OK, a little but significant update. I took a few more logs and was looking some more through them. At above 1400rpm, the Injection amount deviation is 0.0002 mg/stroke on all 4 cylinders. At idle, this is what I am getting...



Would anyone with access be able to find out what is the specification for deviation allowed on the 4 cylinders for my engine code CAYC, part number 03L 906 023 DQ ?

This brings a whole new complexion to the issue, I am guessing there is a fault on injector 3, perhaps it's all coked up? Is there anything I can try in VCDS to help this? I am wondering whether injection calibration has been done correctly by the dealer and whether any software correction can be made by me. If not, then at least I know where this is heading...cylinder 3 injector clean up or replacement.

Thanks.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Each injector has a calibration # on it.
It should still be very close if not exact to what is on the injector in ADP channels to be observed since it was just performed.
I will have a look at an 03L we have here and see if I see anything for deviations after inducing some issues.
 
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airbus

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Each injector has a calibration # on it.
It should still be very close if not exact to what is on the injector in ADP channels to be observed since it was just performed.
I will have a look at an 03L we have here and see if I see anything for deviations after inducing some issues.
Calibration number on each injector matches that for the each cylinder in adaptation. My concern is that there is another calibration done for minimum quantity that I am not familiar with, that the dealer may have completed incorrectly.

If there is no other calibration that can be done other than checking the number on the injector matches that in adaptation, then I think I may have an injector problem.

Any added information would be great... Thanks.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Have you done the block 200 count down test?

0x01-04-200 ON/Go Brake and gas pedal depressed.
 
   #10  

Uwe

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Since the ECU uses the UDS/ODX protocol, as evidenced by:
ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DQ 003011
ROD: EV_ECM16TDI02103L906023DQ.rod
there are not going to be a Block 200 in the traditional sense. I expect the equivalent in this ECU would be Basic Settings -> Automatic test sequence.

-Uwe-
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Does this car have any carbon build up in intake ports?

Yeah slipped by me this was UDS................ automatic test sequence sounds correct to me.......did you do this yet?

You can also swap the injector to see if the deviation moves......its not that hard just need new gaskets afterward for sealing the nozzles and some say new lines but I say baaaa reuse with fine polish and lube for testing.
 
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airbus

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Hi Uwe,

Since the ECU uses the UDS/ODX protocol, as evidenced by:

there are not going to be a Block 200 in the traditional sense. I expect the equivalent in this ECU would be Basic Settings -> Automatic test sequence.

-Uwe-
I did cycle through the various options available to me in Basic Settings, I also did the Automatic Test Sequence again just to be sure and it went through that fine. Under Readiness I see all items passed. I noted that when I had taken it from the dealer after they claimed to have adapted injector minimum deviation quantity, most of the items there were fail. Running the automatic test sequence solved this.

I am trying to figure out whether the dealer did indeed Perform Min. Qty Adaptation (adapting injector minimum deviation quantity), they claimed they did but I am looking to definitely confirm this. If there is a way for me to do it myself with VCDS, even better? All 4 adaptation channels showing 7 digit number on injectors check out, I am unsure whether Min. Qty Adaptation is different to this though, anyone know ??

The article which brought this all about is HERE, not my engine granted, but similar and I have most of those symptoms.

Does this car have any carbon build up in intake ports?

Yeah slipped by me this was UDS................ automatic test sequence sounds correct to me.......did you do this yet?
Yes, done twice for good measure along with every other option in that list HERE that the system would take ;)

You can also swap the injector to see if the deviation moves......its not that hard just need new gaskets afterward for sealing the nozzles and some say new lines but I say baaaa reuse with fine polish and lube for testing.
Good idea, I will probably do this as a last resort.

Action plan I have at the moment in this order.
1. Confirm I know it's not software adaptation (or lack of) causing the problem.
If VCDS can do this on the CR engines, all the better! I tried the option 'Adapting Injection Minimum Deviation Quantity' in Basic Settings, the engine revved up and down constantly (brake pedal and accelerator pressed) for 10 minutes before I gave up on that and went to the dealer...

2. I will move on to diesel purge to see if that releases any sticking injector.

3. Inspecting and getting new injectors as a last resort.

Thank you.
 
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   #13  

airbus

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OK since no response to my last message I went ahead and did a diesel purge on the injector system, unfortunately it didn't make the cylinder 3 injector any better, still the same deviations, although they look to be more
sporadic in their fluctuations now.

I am going to try it some more but was wondering whether vcds can allow revving of the engine past 2500rpm whilst the car is stationary? I think this may help while feeding the diesel
Purge clean into the system. Thanks.
 
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airbus

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I would swap the injectors to see if the value moves...........
OK thanks, just trying to gain the courage to do this. Is there anything I should be wary of when removing them apart from making sure I don't strip the threads :rolleyes: Did you manage to check any of the 03L engines in your workshop to see what values constitute as 'normal' ?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Bahhh

You can do it.......its real easy.....valve cover splits...... without the need to remove to access.
Pretty straight forward.

I will have some logs I believe in the morning to compare now that I was able role a Scirocco out of the bay I been working on.
 
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airbus

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Bahhh

You can do it.......its real easy.....valve cover splits...... without the need to remove to access.
Pretty straight forward.

I will have some logs I believe in the morning to compare now that I was able role a Scirocco out of the bay I been working on.
OK that would be great thanks.
 
   #18  

Jack@European_Parts

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Okay this is what I have.....

I believe the spec. should be @ IDLE -2.8 to........ + 2.8 Mg/H Deviation permitted.

Actual logs of deviation in car I have here at Idle.

ZYL #1 + .09 to fluctuating + .12
ZYL #2 - .16 to fluctuating - .14
ZYL #3 - .19 to fluctuating - .16
ZYL #4 + .24 to fluctuating + .16

It seems to me that looking at cars with no errors.
There seems to be a common of positive or negative deviation based on 1 & 4 being shared like 2 & 3 being shared stroke placements of piston.
They can be inverse but it is something to note since 1&4 are at TDC while 2&3 would be at BDC.....

So yeah......... I would swap an injector to see if it moves, because even though it is within spec it is far from in correlation with others.

That correlation is not being shared in yours though.......so I might try to split the positive ones with 1 & 4 and negative with 2 & 3 just to see if it changes the balance of seat of the pants operation.
 
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airbus

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Jack, thanks for this info. Yes strange how spec has such a wide tolerance, perhaps that's why it isn't throwing a fault code on the ECU.

I think the swapping of the injectors is the only way to go now. Do you have much problems with seized injectors on the CR engines? I have done some research and it seems the injectors or not actually screwed into the head, instead held on on pairs via a clamp. Is a special pulling device needed to lift them out of the cylinder or is it simply a case of wiggling and pulling providing they're not seized?

Thanks.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Correct sir.........no DTC because within the threshold of operation.

I use the factory pulling tool, which attaches to the threads of the injector......... as per the repair manual.

Yeah they seem to come right out in my experience......... so far pretty easy compared to the VE ALH which get corroded.

Good luck.....
 
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