'14 Audi A6 TDI - OEM Battery - EOL?

   #21  

Uwe

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I've heard about not only "small current" but "signals of different frequencies - to deeply analyze several parameters of the battery"
You can definitely measure AC internal resistance. That's a standard thing with Li-ion cells, done at 1 kHz. In fact, I own a meter just for that purpose. But the values it produces are not the same as a proper DC internal resistance test, which requires pulling something resembling the cell's rated current for a brief time, and in the end, DC internal resistance is what matters when you're trying to turn an engine over with a starter motor, or get glow plugs to heat up, etc.

-Uwe-
 
   #22  

Micky 32

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I have one of those Topdon AC (CCA) conductance testers. To be fair they are quite good. Any battery that i know is faulty it told me to "replace" and any battery that i know is good tested "good battery"

Of all the batteries i tested one battery fooled it. It read 50 CCA more than it's rated CCA but it was still faulty.

Get a baseline reading when the battery is new and then monitor it over time. The battery in my last car was rated at 680 CCA. I watched it gradually drop over the years and when it dropped to about 370 ish CCA cranking became slow. I could predict it was going to happen because of that tool.
 
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   #23  

RGH0

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By sending a small current at multiple frequencies you can calculate the battery DC resistance element of its measured AC impedance. Battery life condition and actual CCA can then be calculated by some algorithms.

Most of the electronic battery testers have a setting for "connected / in car" and "disconnected / out of car" to try to compensate for the impedance of the things connected to the battery which alter the the measured impedance of the battery but this adjustment is only approximate as every car is different so best to measure the battery directly with it disconnected from the car

In cars with batteries in inaccessible locations like a Touareg the measurement using the jumper posts under the hood is even worse due to the impedance of the cables.

Best results are obtained with the battery disconnected and the tester connected directly to the battery terminals.

These devices typically also have a start test function where they measure the minimum voltage during a start which is a useful dianostic especially if combined with a clamp on ampmeter to see the actual starting current being drawn. While a traditional high amp resistive load tester gives better results as it directly measures the relevant parameters rather than determine then more indirectly these new cheap battery condition monitors are pretty good given their low cost.
 
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SaVAGeSoot

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just don't want to do it until I'm actually worried that it won't start
Newsflash (I'm sure you're all going to be shocked) !
I am now worried!

We had a nice cold-snap, and the A6 was sitting there freezing all week without being driven. I went to start it and the BEM stepped it, told me things are bad, attempted to crank, and shut things down..... so I gave it 3 sec, and hit it again.... it started.... but it really didn't want to. After that, I drove it around a bit, went and visited my parents, etc. Came back and scanned it quickly to see just how bad it was..... I think it's time :rolleyes:
(this was after it got "charged" from using it throughout the morning)
Code:
Saturday,21,December,2024,14:15:02:38535

                Address 19: CAN Gateway  (4G0 907 468 AC)

14:14:57
  IDE00019   Voltage terminal 30 11.3 V
  IDE01833-MAS03159   Battery version-Manufacturer JCI 
  IDE01833-MAS04490   Battery version-Size 92 Ah 
  IDE01839   Battery charge level 63 %
  IDE01840   Battery condition for display 60 %
  IDE01842   Usable battery charge 9 Ah[/quote]
 
   #25  

SaVAGeSoot

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Here's some of the stuff I'm seeing in the history file.... the AUX heater being turned off is the last straw here, because not only will I not be able to start the vehicle any time now, but even if I keep playing with fire, I can't even defrost the damn window with it being a TDI and never warming up just sitting there idling. :facepalm:
 
   #26  

SaVAGeSoot

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More evidence of me being a clown ;)
Code:
Address 19: CAN Gateway (J533)       Labels:| 4H0-907-468.clb
   Part No SW: 4G0 907 468 AC    HW: 4G0 907 468 AC
   Component: J533--Gateway H12 0037  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: 00000001024590 Dataset Number: 4G0909515J  0067
   Coding: 00CD077D00
   Shop #: WSC 02391 785 00200
   GVL: FDADE84CFEE2680F4000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_GatewPkoUDS 001018
   ROD: EV_GatewPkoUDS_001_AU57.rod
   VCID: F1E3FE15203F1D1EBC-80A4

   Battery Monitoring Control Module: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 8T0 915 181     HW: 8T0 915 181 
   Component: J367-BDMHella  H03 8041 
   Serial number: 6872710903          

   Voltage stabilizer: 
   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 8K0 959 663 F    HW: 8K0 959 663 
   Component: J532_DCDCStab  H23 0021 
   Serial number: 13052200000000000270

2 Faults Found:
6678 - Voltage Regulator Stage 1 
          C10AF F2 [00001000] - Supply Voltage Lower Limit Not Reached
          Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 150
                    Mileage: 141692 km
                    Date: 2024.12.21
                    Time: 10:35:37

                    Voltage terminal 30: 10.8 V
                    Voltage terminal 15: 10.8 V
                    Control Module temperature: -7 °C
                    System status: Terminal 15 on
                    IN ESP_standstill flag: standstill detected
                    Engine running: OFF
                    IN ZAS_Te_X: OFF
                    Terminal 15 status via CAN: On
                    Terminal 15 status: On
                    Datenfeld: 0

12291 - Energy Management Active 
          U140B 00 [00001000] - -
          [New feature! Extended UDS fault detail is only supported by current gen. interfaces]
          Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Priority: 7
                    Fault Frequency: 6
                    Reset counter: 136
                    Mileage: 140607 km
                    Date: 2024.11.03
                    Time: 15:59:06

                    Voltage terminal 30: 11.4 V
                    Voltage terminal 15: 11.4 V
                    Control Module temperature: 20 °C
                    System status: Terminal 15 on
                    IN ESP_standstill flag: standstill detected
                    Engine running: OFF
                    IN ZAS_Te_X: On
                    Terminal 15 status via CAN: On
                    Terminal 15 status: On
                    Datenfeld: 1
 
   #27  

Uwe

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We had a nice cold-snap, and the A6 was sitting there freezing all week without being driven.
It's been pretty cold here too. -15C this morning. Wife's 2015 T'reg TDI sits outside as well and still has the original battery. It was supposed to get changed out a couple of months ago when it got inspected, but somehow that message didn't get conveyed. Knowing it was going to be real cold overnight, I stuck a charger on it yesterday. Removed it after a couple of hours when it claimed the battery was "full". I have not attempted to start it today. :o

-Uwe-

PS: Please don't be the stereotypical Canadian who says that -15C is balmy T-shirt weather. :p
 
   #28  

SaVAGeSoot

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PS: Please don't be the stereotypical Canadian who says that -15C is balmy T-shirt weather. :p
Nah.... that's those guys "out west" in the Prairies who get -40ºC .... I think it was around the same here yesterday during the day, but the wind chill was disguising.
I stuck a charger on it yesterday. Removed it after a couple of hours when it claimed the battery was "full".
Funny enough, on both the egg and the A6, I've had a charger on them until same "full" readout, and as soon as I unlock it or open the hood, it instantly drops down to LO again.
 
   #29  

Uwe

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Funny enough, on both the egg and the A6, I've had a charger on them until same "full" readout, and as soon as I unlock it or open the hood, it instantly drops down to LO again.
That wakes the vehicle up, which puts a load on the battery, reducing the voltage that the charger sees.

Somewhere I have a crap charger that won't "re-cycle" and start charging again when that happens which makes it pretty much useless for the way we most often use chargers (as a "maintainer" when leaving the ignition on for long periods while developing and testing VCDS). The only way to get it to start charging again is to disconnect it or unplug it from the wall. :mad:

-Uwe-
 
   #30  

Dr Sheldon

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I agree that Midtronics is a very reputable brand. But I'm scratching my head how that is possible. To do a proper load or capacity test, the energy has to go somewhere, doesn't it?

-Uwe-
I too am "Old School" was bought up using the Load Tester like this one.



Now if you do the Bosch Battery Management Course


They teach you that modern batteries - Anything Non Lead Acid - That you should not be using that type of Drop /Load tester !! Now that could be because they dont make one - Who knows !!

Perhaps because they do make a Hand Held Battery Tester !!

They also teach you not to use a Power Probe !!


I dont have one of those drop testers however I will often disable start and crank the engine whilst measuring Voltage and Current with an Amp Clamp - I can calculate RPM from that too - Or get RPM from an easily accessible Cam or Crank Sensor.
 
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Dr Sheldon

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How does a crappy little tester like that measure the capacity of a battery?


-Uwe-

I cant speak for this particular one but these "little" Testers do ask you to start the car. Again you can Paralyse Start.

They do give some useful measurements

Cranking Amps
Minimum Voltage Whilst Cranking
Alternator / Charging Performance - they ask for loads to be switched on

But I'm scratching my head how that is possible. To do a proper load or capacity test, the energy has to go somewhere, doesn't it?

-Uwe-
The Starter Motor !!


Took a while but I am now convinced that they are actually a useful tool !!
 
   #32  

Uwe

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The Starter Motor !!
Which is not exactly a known load/draw. Even if it's in perfect condition, the amount of current it draws will depend on many external factors, such as temperature, viscosity of oil, etc, etc.

Took a while but I am now convinced that they are actually a useful tool !!
I believe they are a useful tool, but I am not persuaded that they can provide accurate battery capacity or cranking amp ratings.

-Uwe-
 
   #33  

Dr Sheldon

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Which is not exactly a known load/draw. Even if it's in perfect condition, the amount of current it draws will depend on many external factors, such as temperature, viscosity of oil, etc, etc.

Again these things can test the battery in isolation - then also in the car cranking and charging so it will use information from that to make the calculation ??

I too cant really get my head around it either but they seem to do a good job and they are a small fortune too buy !! Some are £1000 :confused:

Having said that your knowledge of Electric / Electronics will be sharper than mine !
 
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Hi... remember me? (you know, guy wearing big oversized red shoes, trying to stretch out a dead battery for absolutely no reason at all) ;)
As many of you know, we've had some brisk weather last week.... I'm sure those that got snow in Texas and Florida noticed :D
Well, I had fled to the Caribbean a week before that, and I knew the A6 wouldn't have a chance of surviving that long outside without life support, so I left it on a charger.
This kept it alive enough to still be drivable upon return, but I decided to scan it this weekend just to get a feel for what's going on.... to my absolute shock, the battery is still NFG :banghead:
Code:
1 Fault Found:
9617697 - Function Restricted due to Insufficient Voltage 
          U1400 00 [00001000] - -
          [New feature! Extended UDS fault detail is only supported by current gen. interfaces]
          Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Priority: 6
                    Fault Frequency: 4
                    Reset counter: 163

                    Voltage terminal 30: 6.4 V
                    Terminal 15 status: Terminal 15 on

Could this be a record for lowest Voltage terminal 30? :confused:
 
   #36  

SaVAGeSoot

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d5p3shf-bd00fcb6-cf6d-4c6e-ac44-24f19602e2d7.gif
 
   #37  

Uwe

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How did the electronics even wake up at HALF their design spec voltage? :eek:
The internals in the modules run at 5.0 Volts or less. These days, I'd expect much of the logic in there to be 3.3V. So modules have step down voltage regulators and can still make "logic voltage" even when their "12V" input is down to around 6V.

-Uwe-
 
   #38  

SaVAGeSoot

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Well gents, I finally folded and got a replacement.
Went for a Costco unit, because you can't touch their warranty, and with this vehicle being a driveway ornament most of the time, I fully expect to end up taking advantage of said warranty.

Tested both units. The original was after driving around for a few hours this morning so that's why it tested so good

 
   #39  

Uwe

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I finally folded
Don't feel bad. We found the 4-1/2 year old battery in our company truck (2001 Eurovan) to be dead as a door nail this week. It wouldn't take more than 3A from a 20A charger either. Weird!

That van has always had a marginally weak charging system and is a parking lot ornament most of the time. I'm thinking the $174 Interstate MT-47/H5 we just put in it is 4th or 5th battery in 24 years. It is of course in the engine bay, and thus subject to all the heat from a VR6.

Oh, and ask how often ID.4 owners have been replacing their cars' 12V battery -- LOL.

-Uwe-
 
   #40  

SaVAGeSoot

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We found the 4-1/2 year old battery g their cars' 12V battery....
My exact justification for going with Costco unit - 60 mo full refund, 100 mo pro rated... I just hope I can make the A6 last that long :thumbs:
 
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