Resolved No start, no crank

[david2398]

First time poster. Long time VW driver.

• 2014 VW Jetta SE Auto 1.8L turbo.
• No mods.
• 100k miles.
• Power in car, but no cranking when I turn the key.
• Measured 12.3V across the battery.
• Getting same voltage on terminal 30 on starter.
• Not getting any power at start wire on starter when trying to start.

Played around with the measuring blocks and had results like this:
{measuring block}: {value before turning key} > {value with key turned into starting position}

terminal 50 IDE00412: not ative > active
terminal 50 feedback IDE00416:  01 > 00
starter control, interlock switch ENG100919: 00000000 > 00000000
starter relay 1 ENG100800: 00000000 > 00000001
starter relay 2 ENG99979: 00000000 > 00000001

Scan results below.
Running tires without TPM sensors and unplugged the car-net box thing under the passenger seat.

VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 24.7.1.0 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4643.4
Data version: 20240919 DS356.3
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: 3VWD17AJ4EM4xxxxxx   License Plate:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: AJ-VW36 (6N0)
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 17 19 25 2E 44 56 75 77

VIN: 3VWD17AJ4EM4xxxxxx  Mileage: 162980km-101271miles

01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 0010
02-Auto Trans -- Status: OK 0000
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: Malfunction 0010
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: OK 0000
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
2E-Media Player 3 -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: Malfunction 0010
75-Telematics -- Status: Malfunction 0010
77-Telephone -- Status: OK 0000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine (J623-CPRA)       Labels:. 06K-907-425-V2.clb
   Part No SW: 06K 906 070 F    HW: 06K 907 425
   Component: Simos12.2     H09 6865
   Revision: --H09---    Serial number: 00000000000000 CVN: 7EDBB9E2
   Coding: 001A0012242400170000
   Shop #: WSC 00066 790 07029
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM18TFS02006K906070F 001010
   ROD: EV_ECM18TFS02006K906070F.rod
   VCID: 2D0703991D96F882C4D-8078
   VINID: 0E69D404745A11574408914524B4B4E543

1 Fault Found:
15282 - Engine Starter Malfunction
          P06E9 00 [10100111] - -
          MIL ON - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 162983 km
                    Date: 2024.10.01.
                    Time: 21:16:21

                    Engine RPM: 0.00 /min
                    Normed load value: 0.0 %
                    Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 14 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 17 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 970 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 11.679 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
                    Engine: operating status: ES
                    STATE_LS_SAE[1]: INI
                    T_AST_SAE: 0 s
                    MAP_MES_SAE: 97 kPa
                    Lambda probe voltage: bank 1: probe 1 (broadband probe): 2.075 V
                    FAC_TPS_1_SAE: 17.968750 %
                    FUP_H_SAE: 570.0 kPa

Readiness: 1110 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans (J217)       Labels:* 09G-927-749-V1.clb
   Part No SW: 09G 927 749 A    HW: 09G 927 749 A
   Component: AISIN AG6 G3  109 2856
   CVN: 481EBFD0
   Coding: 000348
   Shop #: WSC 00066 790 07029
   ASAM Dataset: EV_TCMAQ250031 001004
   ROD: EV_TCMAQ250031_001_VW25.rod
   VCID: 372B21F1EFCA4252AE1-8062

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels:. 1K0-907-379-60EC1F.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 BS    HW: 1K0 907 379 BS
   Component: ESP MK60EC1   H46 0166
   Revision: 00H46001  
   Coding: A14B400C49240003851002E992220041A1100012
   Shop #: WSC 57812 001 1048576
   VCID: 0451863DEE1CD9CA7B3-8050

1 Fault Found:
02214 - Tire Pressure Warning
            002 - Lower Limit Exceeded
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100010
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 123
                    Mileage: 149255 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2018.05.27.
                    Time: 11:01:31

             Freeze Frame:
                    Count: 0
                    Count: 32768
                    Count: 4608
                    Count: 16401
                    Count: 52327
                    Count: 1
                    Count: 512
                    Count: 0


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC        Labels: 5C0-820-047.clb
   Part No SW: 5C0 820 047 BN    HW: 5C0 820 047 BN
   Component: J301  Klimaanlage   0204
   Revision: 2001001S    Serial number: 00000002087332
   Shop #: WSC 00066 790 07029
   VCID: 6D87C399D196388284D-8038

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels:. 6R0-937-08x-09.clb
   Part No SW: 5C0 937 087 J    HW: 5C0 937 087 A
   Component: BCM25 JLB H3  H34 0411
   Revision: B2034001    Serial number: 08018080140094
   Coding: 7B994B1808AB0B0000382000240884C500C2502E60004000300050002000
   Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
   VCID: 343116FDFE3CA94A8B3-8060

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 6R0 959 801 AN    HW: 6R0 959 801 AN  Labels: 6R0-959-801.CLB
   Component: J386__TSG_FT  006 5461
   Serial number: 14102585140228195107
   Coding: 820000

   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 6R0 959 802 AS    HW: 6R0 959 802 AS  Labels: 6R0-959-802.CLB
   Component: J387__TSG_BT  006 5461
   Serial number: 14102584140227180451
   Coding: 820000

   Subsystem 3 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 542 C    HW: 5K0 959 542 C  Labels: 3C8-959-537.CLB
   Component: E221__MFL-TAS  H31 0037
   Serial number: 0700023 FLE 20140214
   Coding: 020000

   Subsystem 4 - Part No SW: 6R0 959 811 M    HW: 6R0 959 811 M
   Component: J388__TSG_HL  006 5460
   Serial number: 14102587140305170041
   Coding: 800000

   Subsystem 5 - Part No SW: 6R0 959 812 M    HW: 6R0 959 812 M
   Component: J389__TSG_HR  006 5460
   Serial number: 14102586140217202517
   Coding: 800000

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags (J234)       Labels:| 5K0-959-655.clb
   Part No SW: 5C0 959 655 AD    HW: 5C0 959 655 AD
   Component: AirbagVW10    102 0912
   Serial number: 003MVD03T6V9   Dataset Number: 160003v____ 0219
   Coding: 00004138
   Shop #: WSC 00066 790 07029
   ASAM Dataset: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360 001026
   ROD: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360.rod
   VCID: 74B1D6FDBE3CE94A4B3-8020

   Seat occupied recognition:
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 5C6 959 339 B    HW: 5C6 959 339 B
   Component: BF-Gewichtss.  H10 0046
   Serial number: 6940000Y1400013A3U0J
   Coding: 303036

   Crash sensor for side airbag: driver side:
   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354     HW: 5K0 959 354
   Component: S.Sens.Fahr.V  H02 ----
   Serial number: 3572MSME0C203E41ZZZT

   Front Passenger's Side Airbag Crash Sensor:
   Subsystem 3 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354     HW: 5K0 959 354
   Component: S.Sens.Beif.V  H02 ----
   Serial number: 3582MSME5F376841ZZZ0

   Rear Side Airbag Crash Sensor (on driver's side):
   Subsystem 4 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 351 A    HW: 5K0 959 351 A
   Component: S.Sens.Fahr.H  H02 ----
   Serial number: 3516KSME4144622BZZZN

   Passenger side rear thorax airbag crash sensor:
   Subsystem 5 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 351 A    HW: 5K0 959 351 A
   Component: S.Sens.Beif.H  H02 ----
   Serial number: 3526KSME4D10632BZZZU

   Crash sensor for front airbag: driver side:
   Subsystem 6 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 659 A    HW: 5K0 959 659 A
   Component: F.Sens.Fahr  H02 ----
   Serial number: 3556LSME0A57442AZZZ-

   Crash sensor for front airbag: front passenger side:
   Subsystem 7 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 659 A    HW: 5K0 959 659 A
   Component: F.Sens.Beif  H02 ----
   Serial number: 3566LSME4242742AZZZU

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments (J285)       Labels:| 5K0-920-xxx-17.clb-SRI1
   Part No SW: 5C6 920 953 B    HW: 5C6 920 953 B
   Component: KOMBI         H04 0809
   Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 270A01
   Shop #: WSC 00066 790 07029
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09 A04723
   ROD: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09_004_VW32.rod
   VCID: 2C010E9D268CF18AD33-8078

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway (J533)       Labels:. 6N0-909-901-6R.clb
   Part No SW: 6N0 909 901     HW: 5C0 937 087 A
   Component: GW-K-CAN TP20 H34 0411
   Revision: B2034001  
   Coding: 102200
   Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
   VCID: 70B9DAEDCAA4D56AAFB-8024

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer (J334)       Labels:| 5K0-920-xxx-25.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 953 234     HW: 5K0 953 234
   Component: IMMO          H04 0809
   Serial number:              
   Coding: 000000
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09 A03710
   ROD: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09_VW23.rod
   VCID: 6A8DC885ECF82FBAE1F-803E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 2E: Media Player 3
Cannot be reached

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist        Labels: 1K0-909-14x-GEN3.clb
   Part No: 1K0 909 144 R
   Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl. 69     3501
   Revision: 00H22000  
   Shop #: WSC 02069 000 90108
   VCID: 392F27C9D55E5422585-806C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio (J503)       Labels:. 5M0-035-1xx-56.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 035 164 F    HW: 1K0 035 164 F
   Component: LOW NAR SDARS H04 0005
   Revision: -----08S    Serial number: VWZ4Z6P3751193
   Coding: 01000400020006
   Shop #: WSC 00066 790 00122
   VCID: 2517FBB945E6C0C20CD-8070

1 Fault Found:
02635 - Tuner Not Enabled/Activated
            000 - -
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100000
                    Fault Priority: 3
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 86
                    Mileage: 56542 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2018.04.06.
                    Time: 14:17:08


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 75: Telematics (J949)       Labels:| 12E-035-284.clb
   Part No SW: 561 035 285     HW: 561 035 285
   Component: OCULowUSA     014 0102
   Serial number: 000003554140516 Dataset Number: V03935196FH 0010
   Coding: 02630102C2161A107F1606000000
   Shop #: WSC 01383 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_OCULow 001010
   ROD: EV_OCULow_001.rod
   VCID: 53F375615B728E72B29-8006

3 Faults Found:
9458451 - Cellular Antenna
          B1053 13 [00001001] - Open Circuit
          [GSM antenna open load]
          Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Priority: 4
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 218

2566 - GPS Antenna
          B1054 13 [00001001] - Open Circuit
          [GPS antenna open load]
          Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Priority: 4
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 218

2103041 - Control Module
          B1788 F0 [00001001] - Start Prohibition Deactivated
          Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Priority: 8
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 67
                    Mileage: 162983 km
                    Date: 2024.10.01.
                    Time: 21:34:36


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 77: Telephone (J412)       Labels:| 5N0-035-729.clb
   Part No SW: 5N0 035 729 A    HW: 5N0 035 729 A
   Component: TELEFON       H05 0592
   Revision: 1B001001    Serial number: 00007665628185 Dataset Number: 5N0035729A  0001
   Coding: 0A10030080010110
   Shop #: WSC 01383 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_UHVUMI 001007
   ROD: EV_UHVUMI.rod
   VCID: 2E0504951090839AFD7-807A

No fault code found.

 

[david2398]

Gosh! I didn't even ask a question!

I'm not sure what to investigate next. I swapped some of the relays around but I think the measuring block things I did are telling me they are working. Not exactly sure how I can go about testing why no power on the ignition wire at starter. Any suggestions? Thank you!

 

[siLc]

Verify fuse SB25 in the engine bay fusebox. That provides power for the appropriate relays.

 

[EuroX]

Checks basics like fuses. If fuses check out, please look at wiring diagram to see where power is coming from. Check signal wire at starter while someone hold key in crank position to verify if your getting a signal or not. If you are then you need a starter. If your not then you need to look at wiring diagram to see where signal is coming from. Most likely ignition switch I would think, but you should verify using wiring diagrams.

 

[david2398]

Thanks for the responses.

Verify fuse SB25 in the engine bay fusebox. That provides power for the appropriate relays.

According to service manual for my car, this fuse is:

F25 - Fuse 25 on fuse holder B -SB25- 50 A - Terminal 15 voltage supply relay -J329- Terminal 15 voltage supply relay 2 -J681- 30a

Fuse is ok. I measured continuity. I also swapped relays for J329 and J681 with some others and that made no difference. Not surprising because I think the measuring values in my original post show that the relays are functional.

Check signal wire at starter while someone hold key in crank position to verify if your getting a signal or not.

Per original message, I did this. No signal.

If fuses check out, please look at wiring diagram to see where power is coming from.

Agreed - thank you. I do have the wiring diagrams. Unless there are any hints to be given from measuring values, then I will need to dig into this.

I should have said "Advanced Measuring Values" not "measuring blocks" in my original post. It's curious to me that starter control, interlock switch ENG100919 did not change value per my original post. Does anyone know if it's supposed to? I can't find any clear info about this when searching.

 

[siLc]

There's a few things to check in the dashboard relay panel. First row, second on the left is one relay, J682/J907 marked 507. The other one is second row, second on the left, J906 marked 645. WD is vague whether there's only one relay in actual use, or are they in series. If only one, then J682. If in series, then J906 and J907. Look behind the relay carrier and try to ascertain good contact in the wires/terminals.

When the ignition is ON, there should be 12V present at the relay input terminal. That comes from J329.

 

[JMR]

Identify the starter relay(s) , take them out , pry them open from their housing , put them back and squeeze then by hand. If the starter cranks....check ground and voltage . If all good , start digging wires

https://flic.kr/p/2qk4s3n

 

[david2398]

There's a few things to check in the dashboard fuse panel. First row, second on the left is one relay, J682/J907 marked 507. The other one is second row, second on the left, J906 marked 645. WD is vague whether there's only one relay in actual use, or are they in series. If only one, then J682. If in series, then J906 and J907. Look behind the relay carrier and try to ascertain good contact in the wires/terminals.

When the ignition is ON, there should be 12V present at the relay input terminal. That comes from J329.

Thanks. I'm getting 10V on the signal pins on both those relays when ignition is ON.

Here's what I'm working with in my PDF from Erwin . #50 on B in the image below is the signal wire on the starter. Not sure how to trace #59 and #79 further up the "chain".

https://imgur.com/a/nz4Ryju

But I do see how #50 comes back to J682.

https://imgur.com/a/WB7MDoW

Need to dig into this more.

 

[JMR]

10 v is kinda low aint it ?

 

[Dr Sheldon]

WOW - What happened to the English Language !! ??

1 Fault Found: 15282 - Engine Starter Malfunction

Where in that fault code is it pointing to swapping relays ?

Is this a 2 Relay Starter Motor set up ?

Wire up a 12v LED to the T50 wire at the starter and see if it gets powered for100mS or longer - Then we can work back to power, ground and Control strategy !!

 

[david2398]

WOW - What happened to the English Language !! ??

Where in that fault code is it pointing to swapping relays ?

Is this a 2 Relay Starter Motor set up ?

Wire up a 12v LED to the T50 wire at the starter and see if it gets powered for100mS or longer - Then we can work back to power, ground and Control strategy !!

!! ??

To clarify my original message: bullet #3 is referring to the T50 wire:

• Measured 12.3V across the battery.
• Getting same voltage on terminal 30 on starter.
• Not getting any power at start wire on starter when trying to start.

I also tested ground for battery and starter casing. Both passed.

 

[david2398]

10 v is kinda low aint it ?

Agreed. This was not what I was expecting based upon messages here (and because cars) but I retested it a few times. I won't be able to get back to troubleshooting until tomorrow.

 

[Dr Sheldon]

!! ??

To clarify my original message: bullet #3 is referring to the T50 wire:

• Not getting any power at start wire on starter when trying to start

If your Diagram in #8 above is correct then this easy !!

Remove relay and power the T50 Wire (RED) Does it crank ??

Check big Black Wire to relay should be Battery Voltage with ignition on



Bridging the Red and black wire should make it crank !!

 

[david2398]

Just wanted to close the loop on this...

My investigation started with checking for a signal on the T50 wire at the starter when turning key. I wasn't getting a signal and I checked a few times. Then I dove into the fuses, relays, and wiring diagrams and didn't turn up with any issues. Strange. Wasn't sure what else to do, so I pulled out the starter for a bench test and it failed. (Not to mention, I disassembled the solenoid and the motor and could not figure out the cause of the failure).

Well I got a new starter but checked the T50 wire again before putting it in and, low and behold, I was now getting a signal when turning the key. I don't know if I somehow screwed up the initial measurement 3 times or if fiddling with all the relays resolved something or maybe letting the car sit with the battery unplugged reset something in the ECU that now allowed the T50 signal to go through.

Anyway, my issue is resolved by replacing the new starter. Thanks for all the input.