Cheaters? Recalls? Discuss

   #61  

rucklet

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They said on the news today that it's Volvos turn now. They also failed an exhaust test by 15 times too high NOx.
 
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   #63  

vreihen

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http://jalopnik.com/heres-how-much-horsepower-volkswagens-lose-from-their-d-1734341446

Here's How Much Horsepower Volkswagens Lose From Their Diesel Defeat Device

David Tracy
Filed to: DIESELGATE10/02/15 4:46pm

Volkswagen’s up the creek with their Dieselgate fiasco. They created a “cheat” calibration meant to trick the EPA into thinking their cars are cleaner than they really are. But there might be a quick fix. Question is: how much will this fix cost you in performance?

We’ve already told you that Volkswagen’s “fix” for their smog-inducing diesels will cost you performance, but how much performance are we talkin’ here?

We can’t tell you exactly how much, but TFL Car put on its nerdy scientist hat and ran a quick and dirty experiment. They strapped a 2011 Jetta TDI to a dyno and produced power curves with only the front wheels spinning and then again with all four wheels spinning.

Why did they do this? Well, we’ve shown you the basics on how the “dyno calibration” works. One input VW uses to determine if the car is on a dyno being emissions tested is the wheel speed sensors. If all four wheels are spinning, the ECU will read the sensors and think the car is probably on the road. If the rear wheels are stationary while the fronts are spinning, chances are the car is on a dyno, and that’s when Volkswagen activates cheater mode.

By that logic, when tested on a four-wheel drive dyno with the rears spinning, the car should run normally and produce good power numbers, while on a two-wheel drive dyno with the rear wheels sitting still, there should be a performance degradation as the car activates its dubious “defeat mode.”

TFL Car’s results show exactly that. Peak power between both sets of data looks about the same, but the real difference is low and mid-range torque. The biggest torque disparity occurs at about 2700 RPM, where the “non-cheater” data with all four wheels rolling showed a whopping 32 lb-ft more torque. The biggest difference in horsepower occurred at 2800 RPM— the uninhibited car made 15 more ponies.

We don’t know how many tests TFL Car ran or if they truly were able to produce “apples-to-apples” torque curves, but if so, their numbers could indicate about how much power Volkswagen’s software fix is going to cost VW TDI owners.
 
   #65  

Uwe

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Good info, but I refuse to click "Like". :p

-Uwe-
 
   #66  

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That's based on entering my chassis number into the audi.de site.... UK one still not ready for VIN searches yet.
 
   #67  

CocoPops

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Audi UK site now live, showing same "Flash based" VIN checker that Audi.de has:
 
   #68  

DV52

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I've always wondered what the price of brand loyalty was for new car purchases. Guess I now know the answer from VW's perspective. Seems that your VW America has offered a $2000 loyalty discount on the purchase of a new vehicle for affected owners. Not quite sure that I understand what this means - but the headlight number is out there in the public domain. Is the $2,00 discount off the listed price, or is it applied on the price that is negotiated with the salesman?

If the former, then it's a meaningless incentive - if the latter, then will VW just take their normal cut and the dealer has the incentive not to negotiate as sharp a price?

 
   #69  

Uwe

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Returning Volkswagen owners may be eligible for a $2,000* Owner Loyalty Bonus toward the purchase or lease of a new, 2015 or 2016 Passat model. Gas models only.

*For an individual or immediate family member residing at the same address as the individual (proof of residency required) who currently owns a Volkswagen vehicle (proof of ownership/registration is required). Limit one incentive per eligible VIN. Volkswagen of America, Inc. will pay a $2,000 Owner Loyalty Bonus toward the lease or purchase of a new, unused 2015 or 2016 Jetta, Passat, CC, Beetle, Beetle Convertible, Eos, Golf, Golf GTI, Golf R, e-Golf, Golf SportWagen, Tiguan, Touareg. Gas models only. No trade-in required. Offer is non-transferable. Loyalty Offer Bonus must be applied toward customer lease or purchase and is not redeemable for cash. Incentive paid to dealer and requires dealer participation. May not be combined with Volkswagen Fleet Incentives, Conquest, other Loyalty, or Dealership Employee Programs. Corporations, companies, businesses, and dealerships are not eligible. Fleet leasing, fleet management or dealer-affiliated fleet companies are not eligible. Offer ends November 2, 2015. See your local Volkswagen dealer for financing details or, for general product information, call 1-800-374-8389. © 2015 Volkswagen of America, Inc.
Hard to say how this works exactly. It seems to be in lieu of all other incentives. Since we don't know what other incentives may have been available, it's difficult to deduce exactly how much of a saving it will represent.
 
   #70  

Eric

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Incentives on 2015 Passats are more like $5k now, and there's no pricing or way to order a 2016 currently. So unless/until they finally reveal the prices and options (at the very least before 11/2) on the Meh(R) 2016 SuperFresh edition, this is a worthless, borderline insulting offer.
 
   #71  

Uwe

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Verified (ESP turns off) on a 2013 Passat TDI.

Also verified (ESP turns off) on a 2015 GTI Mk.7. :rolleyes: :facepalm:
 
   #72  

Jack@European_Parts

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Ymmm........... Yeah after review of the TPS reports .......Good coffee!



This is why when I reported this to the EPA about the ABS/ESP for loss of the long coding string, for how it affected the CAA emissions in the engine controller, "with actual DTC's displayed ". 18061/P1653/005715

These DTC's were later vacated with updates or ecu replacements hiding the claims by VW.

Maybe that is why Kurt Immekus didn't come to the NASTF meeting in Vegas Uwe, because he had full knowledge we were going to blow the lid on this.

It should be noted we were there in order to demand access to repair information, or details on behalf of the aftermarket, and on our own dime.
We are legally entitled for a reasonable fee, & need this information; as do others! being YOU........... in order to repair vehicles that are guaranteed to us by the final rule of the CAA regulations correctly. It was clear to me we were not being given access to emission related repairs.

When reported to the EPA .........VW tried to say, as did the EPA blindly siding with VW; that the ABS is not emission related, nor could I be correct.
Now we see that isn't true now don't we? :p
I got to stand in the corner on this for over 5 years.........

Car manufacturers and governing agencies need to be made accountable for this information being released,........ too stop a monopoly.
This conspiracy only shows that manufacturers will do only what is in the interest of making money, while clearly acting in outright nefarious acts.
This is why something like the "Right to Repair Act" (RTRA).......... is of utmost importance.

I found it very suspicious that the VAG test module for readiness, for the "Catalyst" was not displayed/omitted on the VAG side of the VAS tester, verse the OBD2 spec, as is the readiness test and basic setting test omitted in the 0x01-04-200 sequence.
This last critical test in order to pass SMOG, actually takes an exceptionally long time due to not being in the nefarious test mode.....further blocking the test.

What I state can be seen and observed in VCDS in 0x01-15 and you will see as an emulator of the VAS ........VCDS doesn't display it either for the reason it is omitted in the stack. I reported this to RT and the EPA a while back. The nice thing with VCDS, is it supports the OBD2 spec too so you can go there and observe the test + the readiness monitor that isn't displayed on the VAG side.

Now the fun part .............By 5 pump chumping the gas pedal and unplugging the rear ABS sensors, as seen in the video above posted by Uwe; you can observe how much faster the CAT test will pend. This being the fact that the controller given the opportunity to actually run the test.......does it expediently, no different to other basic setting readiness tests I shoot my mouth off about.

Just remember you saw it here first................

It's time for the EPA to do their job and clean up the aftermarket tuners, and the OEM for delete devices, because the aftermarket deletes are far more egregious of an act violation .........than what VW did here.

Stop grandstanding and show your relevance.........Big FAT over regulated Government!
I am not down with invisible hands.......... it's time for action.......either enforce and rewrite the regulations, as being accepted/voted by the people within reason, or shut down/dismantle the agency saving money.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=vw+abs+long+coding+lost+scan


TT 45-08-05

2009 Jetta, GTI, EOS, Rabbit - ABS Module Long Coding

The above listed vehicles are equipped with a long coded ABS module. Tester software (SW) 14.88.00 may not code these modules correctly and it will take SW 14.89.00 before this condition is corrected. In the meantime, please read out any long coded ABS units before replacing the ABS module or the instrument cluster, in order to manually reinstall the coding in a replacement part. If the coding has been lost for any reason, try to code through the GTI test plan and, if an error is still returned, contact the VW Technician’s Help line. A workaround process is in place.

http://upkeep.us/OBDII/OBD2/VW/Volkswagen/piart.php?art=5518


http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18061/P1653/005715

VW/Volkswagen P1653 OBD 2 Check Engine Light Cause & Repair Info for Powertrain Trouble Codes.
18061/P1653/005715 - Please check DTC Memory of ABS Controller Possible Symptoms


  • Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON
Possible Causes


  • Fault Code / Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) stored in Brake Electronics Control Module (J104)
Possible Solutions


  • Check Brake Electronics Control Module (J104) for Fault Codes
    • VCDS > Select > 03 - Brake Electronics > Fault Codes - 02
Special Notes


  • A Fault Code stored in one Module may influence other Modules as well, if a Control Module requires certain Information/Signals and the sending Module/Component is faulty it may store this Code.
 
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   #74  

Jack@European_Parts

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The original response from the EPA on 1-07-2010 when reporting the emission fraud and violations I was finding in 2008>


Issue: Several independent aftermarket shops have expressed concern that VW is
violating EPA service information regulations requiring the availability of immobilizer
reprogramming.
Overview of what the regulations require

Manufacturers must make available the ability for immobilizers to be
reprogrammed and/or replaced if this is an integral procedure to the completion an
emissions-related repair.
o
For 1996 – 2009 model year vehicles, EPA allowed VW to meet this
requirement using the VW specific scan tool
o
For 2010 and later model years, the regulations require manufacturers to
use pass-thru for immobilizer reprogramming.
To satisfy the EPA requirements for immobilizer reprogramming, VW has in place the
following process:

For Pre-2010 model year vehicles:
o
Aftermaket shops register with VW and pay a one-time $100 dollar
registration fee. This allows VW to monitor the users of the service. A
Geko ID is not required for this process because VW controls the process
through the tool.
o
Immobilizer reprogramming is administered by a fulfillment house
(Arvato, which is the new vendor as of December 1)
o
Aftermarket shops who own the VAS 5052 tool go to the Arvato web site
and fill out a request form and pay $29.95 per instance.
o
The request is sent to VW who calls the requestor back
o
The car is hooked up to the tool and the immobilizer is reinitialized via the
Internet.

2010 model year vehicles and later:
o
Immobilizer reprogramming is done directly via the Erwin site and does
not require interaction with the fulfillment house and is $29.95 per
instance
o
The process can either be done with a VAS 5052 or a J2534 pass-thru
cable and a laptop for shops who do not own the VW specific tool.
o
A GeKo ID is required for this process. Aftermarket shops who are
already registered will need to re-register with VW, but do not have to pay
the $100 fee. A shop who has never registered with VW will need to do
so and pay the one time $100 fee.
There is a separate program administered by the National Automotive Service Task Force
(NASTF) for aftermarket shops to voluntary participate in if they wish to make keys.
This process is based on the Secure Data Release Model (SDRM) developed jointly by
the manufacturers and NASTF to allow aftermarket shops to essentially become
locksmiths if they choose to make key replacement services available to their customers.
The availability of keys is not covered by EPA regulations so we have no regulatory
authority over manufacturer participation in this program
. It is important to note that

participation in SDRM is not required to perform the immobilizer reprogramming
services above.
Aftermarket shops also raised questions about the availability of VW’s SVM (Software
Version Management) System. According to VW, SVM is the system that is used by
VW dealers to reprogram emissions and non-emissions related systems such as ABS or
body modules. To satisfy the EPA requirement to make emissions related reprogramming
available to the aftermarket, VW has emission related module reprogramming available
via Pass thru on their Erwin web site
. This approach satisfies the EPA regulations for
emissions-related reprogramming. EPA has no regulatory authority to require that any
manufacturer make available information covering anything other than emissions control
systems and therefore we cannot compel VW to make the SVM system available to
aftermarket shops.
Regarding the latest information on some of the issues experience by aftermarket techs
over the last few days, VW advised EPA that they were switching to a new vendor to
manage their immobilizer reprogramming services. While it is unfortunate that there
appears to have been some issues in the timeliness of providing the service, EPA believes
it is reasonable to allow some time for VW to work through what appear to be technical
transition issues. We have asked VW to keep us apprised of the situation to ensure that
these transition issues are worked through in a timely manner.
Based on the information currently available to us, EPA believes that VW is in
compliance with immobilizer reprogramming requirements as required by the
regulations. If you have additional information that you would like us to consider, please
let me know.
 
   #75  

GaryM

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No real surprises as to what dropped through my letterbox today...




I'm not sure what the legal situation is in the US, but here in the UK there is apparently going to be no legal requirement for owners to have the fixed software update applied so it would be the owners choice. I guess we will find out in due course as to how much a software update will affect the MPG and performance figures (and of course the resale value of our cars).
 
   #76  

Eric

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http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-bragged-about-the-effects-of-diesel-cheating-1737040865
Even more to the point, Horn guaranteeing that non-urea models would retain their "monroney sticker" mileage during his congress hearing came as yet another show of disdain. I remember I was upset as soon as he said that, because they themselves advertised higher than EPA mileage to prospective customers :facepalm: Maybe not so much upset as in disbelief that he dared to pull that stunt and no-one has called him out on it until now.
 
   #77  

DV52

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I'm not sure what the legal situation is in the US, but here in the UK there is apparently going to be no legal requirement for owners to have the fixed software update applied so it would be the owners choice. I guess we will find out in due course as to how much a software update will affect the MPG and performance figures (and of course the resale value of our cars).
Gary: What an interesting letter - thanks for sharing!

It's not good for VW to have these non-compliant cars roaming the streets for ever. The continuing existence of these unfixed diesels will be a constant reminder to the buying public of VW's infamy and VW will most definitely be aware of the continuing impact on the VW brand (for what it's worth) that these cars will have! VW will want to cut away ALL of the cancer in their fleet cleanly and quickly (IMO) - and then they will want to persuade the buying public to move-on (with a very large and a very expensive advertising campaign to rebuild brand value).

Not sure what this means for those who "hold-out", but I suspect that there will be a price to be paid if you don't update the car. Most likely (IMO) it won't be a direct cost to the diesel owner who chooses to opt-out, but it might be an opportunity cost. For example, in USA, I understand that VW are offering a $2K "loyalty bonus" as a discount on the next vehicle purchase. They could do something similar in the UK, but VW might restrict the incentive payment only to those that had the update installed (just an example). Or the opportunity cost could come as a lower sale price when you changeover the vehicle.

Fact is that it's not good to have these diesels not-fixed, now that everyone knows about the NOx issue (it was OK when we didn't know about the problem)- Somehow, someway I'll bet London-to-a-brick that you will be incentivised to get it fixed

Don
 
   #78  

Uwe

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Being the surly curmudgeon I am, I'm really tempted to buy Eric's 2009, remove ALL the emissions stuff ("Throttle", EGR, CAT/DPF and NOx trap, etc) and get a tune that's truly optimized for fuel economy, just to find out what a modern, common-rail diesel is capable of when it isn't saddled with all that stuff. In the name of science, of course. ;)

-Uwe-
 
   #79  

Jack@European_Parts

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Uwe ........

I'm in.......lets apply to the EPA for an exemption testing permit.
Then by removing all the stuff and seeing what is the lowest emission value you can get out the tail-pipe with respective mileage gained by the operating system.

It would also be interesting to see this.

Personally NOX will go through the roof unless using a rich strategy.


This is why CF Vapor gasoline is superior.............
 
   #80  

Rembrant

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http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-bragged-about-the-effects-of-diesel-cheating-1737040865
Even more to the point, Horn guaranteeing that non-urea models would retain their "monroney sticker" mileage during his congress hearing came as yet another show of disdain. I remember I was upset as soon as he said that, because they themselves advertised higher than EPA mileage to prospective customers :facepalm: Maybe not so much upset as in disbelief that he dared to pull that stunt and no-one has called him out on it until now.
So, to quote the Consumer Reports portion of that article, does that give us a good idea of where the MPG of these cars is going to be after the "Fix"? Where the EPA estimated it would be back then during original testing?

“While the Environmental Protection Agency estimates the Jetta TDI at an economical 29 mpg city and 40 mpg highway, Volkswagen went a step further to show real world fuel economy of the Jetta TDI. Leading third-party certifier, AMCI, tested the Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent better in real world conditions, achieving 38 mpg in the city and 44 mpg on the highway.”
 
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