24v VR6 / R32 cam trigger changes

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NZDubNurd

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This is related to my Touran > R32 conversion:

Can I replace a 2006 mk5 R32 BUB engine, with a BDB from a 2004 A3 8P 3.2?


Are the cam triggers the same? It seems they both use the same black cam position sensors, before the R32 changed to the small grey ones in 2007.

I'm using the loom and engine/drivetrain from a 2004 A3 3.2 in my Touran, and the ECU is going to be from a MAY 2006 Euro Golf R32.



I'm confused, because of VW's retarded part numbering system, where a different suffix letter could be a revised/ backward compatible/updated part OR could be an entirely different part!

I'm about to replace the timing chains and tensioners etc, before I get this lump ready to wedge into the Touran, but if I need to change trigger wheels (cam timing actuators), I REALLY want to do it all at the same time.



From what I can find online there are two obvious "styles" of trigger, as shown below:

The left is the 2007 onwards Golf R32 MK5, and the right is 2006 R32 (and seemingly, Early A3, MK4 Golf etc)



My A3 engine appears to have the right side type, which is what I *think* the '06 Golf should have... but are they really the same, or do they just look it???

How do you discover which part numbers are "updates" of earlier parts, and which are new type "different" parts???

According to parts searches I've done:
Golf 4 R32:
Inlet: 022 109 087 F
Outlet: 022 109 088 K

Golf 5 R32:
Inlet: 022 109 087 H / K
Outlet: 022 109 088 L / N

Audi A3:
Inlet: 022 109 087 J / H / K
Outlet: 022 109 088 J / L / N

The alternative letters are for increasingly newer models: ie: the "087 J" is used on the A3 until november 2005, then changes to the "087 H", which is also listed for the MK5 R32 from November 2005 also - Is the J probably just an early revision of the H (oe even K) part, or are they different parts and I shoud change to later trigger wheels/actuators???? According to ECS Tuning, 087 E, F and J all cross reference - suggesting they're different to the MK5, but common between the MK4 R32 and the early A3 3.2.

Argh!


ALL help and advice is greatly appreciated!
 
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jyoung8607

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I'm not sure there's any real way to extract further value from VW's part number assignments.

Differences in those cam adjusters can be at least:
  • Available adjustment angle (intake vs exhaust cam, maybe also engine type/model year)
  • Cam position sensor trigger wheel style, as you've seen
  • Presence of external return spring (doesn't appear to be a factor for you)
They're fairly easy to disassemble if you want to get a sense for the available adjustment angle. Or you could just turn it and see how far it turns. ;) If you can find docs on those engines that describe the control range for the intake and exhaust cams, you could verify application that way. The position sensor trigger wheel is sitting on a pair of dowels; it's not truly fastened on without being bolted onto a camshaft. It'll pop up and off, and from there it can be opened with just those five Torx screws. The only thing to be concerned about is the large o-ring/gasket around the lid... be careful with it if you intend to reuse it. Also look at VW SSP 246 if you haven't already.

I have some pics of a very expensive souvenir from my W12 I'll upload here shortly... my bank 3/4 exhaust cam adjuster. I believe it should be pretty much the same as yours except for the return spring, which seems to be unique to MY 2006 and forward (BRP here in the US) and only on the exhaust side. The older W12s (BAP) don't have them. IIRC, range of motion is 22 degrees on the exhaust. Mainly I'm just uploading them to give you a sense of what's inside if you don't already know, so you can make an informed comparison. Once the plastic cover and spring are off, I'm pretty sure it's the same stuff.

Google Image Search is often helpful in turning up pics of specific part numbers, but always hit the button to visit the page directly to verify. I should expect there to be other hardware and tuning differences between an A3 and an R32, but you're probably already aware. :thumbs:

Jason
 
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jyoung8607

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Hope these may be of some value to you.

The chips in the plastic spring cover on the old one are from me trying to figure out how to disassemble it, before I figured out the trigger wheel popped off easily. I really just wanted inside it to look for scoring or binding of the internal mechanism and to otherwise satisfy my curiosity; its services were no longer required. :)

I still have the cam adjuster assembly, and a complete timing case assembly with solenoids, if any other pictures (or the parts themselves) would be of value to your project.















 
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NZDubNurd

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WOW - that's awesome!

Thanks!

I don't have the return spring arrangement either.

The two styles in the pic I posted look like the outer protrusions would give the same trigger timing, but the differences might be tiny.

The power outputs and curves I've seen for the 2 engines seem to be the same, but we know how accurate the internet can be at times!!!

I don't have the Golf ones to compare - the ECU I got was not with the engine, which was sold earlier :-(


Since you seem experienced with these things, do you think the cam adjusters and/or trigger wheels are easy enough to change by just releasing the top tensioner, keeping the chain tight and doing it in place???

The reference to the cam correlation error I've seen, suggested it was only the exhaust side, and even then only at high RPM. I could live with this initially, and just change if the problem happens. It may also just be from people screwing up the chain timing, which is easy to do, and not noticing. I'm not going to find these units in NZ, so will probably have to ship them from europe. It would be even awesomer (!) if only the trigger wheel needed changing, and I could just swap that :thumbs:

Those pics are awesome, and good to know they aren't complicated! I have found references to the timing amounts, so should be able to measure mine to compare at least.

Thanks heaps :-) Thats a lot of effort put into t post to help someone you don't know, from the other side of the world!

Legend!

Al.
 
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