Broken HPFP MK6 EA888 Gen 1 - please help

[Jguyett]

Hey guys I’m new here and new to using VCDS, I’m a mechanic by trade and been into VW’s for over 12 years. I’m having an issue with my 2010 GTI that’s stumped me and I haven’t been able to get answers anywhere online.
I recently bought a fully built engine that was built by TJRC in CO about a year ago and sat ever since, never installed or ran.
Since the car has been running I've noticed when it's at full temp it has a strange knocking sound at idle and even while driving. It’s coming from the vacuum pump/HPFP area.
I also noticed the AFR and fuel trim seems to be kinda bouncing around which made me suspect the cam follower or vacuum pump affecting the HPFP. I had another HPFP and vacuum pump so I swapped those out and I didn't notice any difference so I replaced the cam follower with a brand new OEM one. I took some videos of the sound before I changed any parts and combined them into 1 video. I uploaded it to youtube, here is the link:

I then took a video of it running with the brand new cam follower:

It was actually louder with the new follower.

At idle
AFR is bouncing from 12-16
STFT bounces from like 0.9-1.10+
LTFT stays around 0.96-1.03

Just out of caution I did an oil pressure check, as I was getting the car hot it seemed to get a little louder.
Oil pressure ending up being perfectly within spec.
The AFR and FT started being even more erratic. I ended up getting some CEL codes - P0087 fuel rail/system pressure too low
P2293 - fuel pressure regulator 2 performance
So I decided to swap out the HPFP again to just be sure this one wasn’t bad.
Sure enough the shaft was sheared. This happened while the car was just sitting there idling.
So I put the other one in and at first everything was fine it sounded good the numbers were stable and perfect. Test drove it and it started getting louder and becoming erratic. So I parked it I’ll pull the HPFP out tomorrow to make sure it didn’t get sheared also. But now I’m thinking something might be wrong with the cam or timing…
Not sure what else would cause this. Like I said I’m new to VCDS specifically but I use complicated diagnostic software at work all the time. The only time I’ve had any codes has been when the HPFP actually broke, but I know there are probably things to check with VCDS to pinpoint where the issue is.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Btw, all timing components, balance shafts are brand new and it’s timed correctly I confirmed it when I got the engine.
As far as mods, I can list the engine specs if needed but with the engine install I also installed a GTX3071r (CTS BOSS 600 kit) and AEM WMI kit, however I’ve unplugged the WMI to make sure that hasn’t been causing any issues.
And I’m running a base tune for this setup via Jared at Stratified.

 

[PetrolDave]

And I’m running a base tune for this setup via Jared at Stratified.

It's not unknown for some tunes to disable the reporting of some fault codes, so it might be an idea to use genuine VW ECU firmware even if just for diagnosing the problem(s).

 

[Jguyett]

It's not unknown for some tunes to disable the reporting of some fault codes, so it might be an idea to use genuine VW ECU firmware even if just for diagnosing the problem(s).

That’s a great point, I hadn’t thought about that. I’ll reflash it to stock and see what it does.

 

[Crasher]

I had that on an R32 turbo conversation I had to sort out, a right mess. It drove me mad with a misfire but no codes. I took the map off and installed a standard one and it immediately showed me a crank speed sender fault. The speed sender wiring had been moved and was trapped behind the turbo oil feed pipe buried in the front of the engine and it was corroded.

 

[Jguyett]

I had that on an R32 turbo conversation I had to sort out, a right mess. It drove me mad with a misfire but no codes. I took the map off and installed a standard one and it immediately showed me a crank speed sender fault. The speed sender wiring had been moved and was trapped behind the turbo oil feed pipe buried in the front of the engine and it was corroded.

By map are you referring to the MAP sensor or as in tuning map?

 

[Crasher]

The tuning map in the ECU, VAG tend to call the MAP sensor a “Thrust” sensor as it often contains the IAT as well.

 

[Jguyett]

The tuning map in the ECU, VAG tend to call the MAP sensor a “Thrust” sensor as it often contains the IAT as well.

That’s what I figured just making sure.

 

[Jguyett]

Okay, so I finally figured out the HPFP issue, the gasket for the vacuum pump was really thick compared to stock. on my old engine I only had a one layer metal gasket, this was 3 layers. I swapped it to the OEM one later and that seemed to solve the issue with that.

So I drove the car to work this morning - about 7 miles, and within about 5 miles or so I got a CEL.
Once I got to work I checked the codes and I had 2:
P000A - A camshaft position slow response (bank 1)
P0341 - Camshaft position sensor circuit range/performance

I cleared the codes to see if they’d come back on the drive home or not, and they didn’t.

But when I got home I checked a couple things in VCDS.
I checked group 93 cam adjustment adaptation
And group 91 cam adjustment bank 1.
I took pictures with my phone because I was using my sons laptop at the time. I also took a video of group 91 during WOT snap.

Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks!

https://imgur.com/a/L2qtbb9

 

[ch1z64]

Okay, so I finally figured out the HPFP issue, the gasket for the vacuum pump was really thick compared to stock. on my old engine I only had a one layer metal gasket, this was 3 layers. I swapped it to the OEM one later and that seemed to solve the issue with that.

So I drove the car to work this morning - about 7 miles, and within about 5 miles or so I got a CEL.
Once I got to work I checked the codes and I had 2:
P000A - A camshaft position slow response (bank 1)
P0341 - Camshaft position sensor circuit range/performance

I cleared the codes to see if they’d come back on the drive home or not, and they didn’t.

But when I got home I checked a couple things in VCDS.
I checked group 93 cam adjustment adaptation
And group 91 cam adjustment bank 1.
I took pictures with my phone because I was using my sons laptop at the time. I also took a video of group 91 during WOT snap.

Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks!

https://imgur.com/a/L2qtbb9

The sound from ur 2 video's sounded exactly like the noise i had recently and it was found to be my Cam Chain had been stretched , now am not sure if ur car has this in it but i run a 2010 S3 8P TFSI CDLA engine

 

[JMF]

Chain stretch values & tensioner failure:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10149892-9999.pdf

by experience
- Group 93.3 value from 3º risk of skipping chain
- Group 91.4 value difference 0.5ºKW is OK. Maximum value 1.0º... with 1.5º risk of skipping chain
- tensioner failure: old tensioner = max 4 visible piston splines / new tensioner = maximum 7 visible piston splines

Group 94: Test Camshaft Adjustment (Intake)
094,0,Camshaft Adjustment (Intake)
094,1,Engine Speed,(G28),Range: 0...6500 RPM\nSpecification (Idle): 640...800 RPM
094,2,Cam. Adjustment,Intake B1 (act.)
094,3,Cam. Adj. Test,Bank 1 Intake,Range: Test ON/Test OFF/Syst. OK/Syst. not OK\nSpecification: Syst. not OK
B094,0,Camshaft Adjustment (Intake)
B094,1,Engine Speed,(G28),Range: 0...6500 RPM\nSpecification (Idle): 640...800 RPM
B094,2,Cam. Adjustment,Intake B1 (act.)
B094,3,Cam. Adj. Test,Bank 1 Intake,Range: Test ON/Test OFF/Syst. OK/Syst. not OK\nSpecification: Syst. not OK



Chain tensioner inspection:

 

[Jguyett]

The sound from ur 2 video's sounded exactly like the noise i had recently and it was found to be my Cam Chain had been stretched , now am not sure if ur car has this in it but i run a 2010 S3 8P TFSI CDLA engine

Mine is a 2010 GTI TSI CBFA/CCTA
I agree it does possibly sound like chain noise, but everything is brand new OEM.
Not to say that it couldn’t still be an issue with the chain drive system.

by experience
- Group 93.3 value from 3º risk of skipping chain
- Group 91.4 value difference 0.5ºKW is OK. Maximum value 1.0º... with 1.5º risk of skipping chain

Thank you so much for all the info. I will do a more in depth check of everything tonight. Just from looking at what I took yesterday it looks like everything seems okay.
However, for 93.3 I’m not too far off from being at 3º and with everything being new that’s concerning to me.
For 91.4 I’m at 0.5ºKW except for during the WOT snap, but it does level out. I’m not sure how fast/slow it should be happening but maybe mine is slower then it should be, which to me seems like possible low oil pressure to/through the N205.
Like I said I’ll take better tests today and keep it pinned at 3k rpm instead of just revving it.
Let me know what you think.

 

[Crasher]

I inspected the tensioner on an EA888 gen 3 in a Leon last week, you could see it was just about to go over to 8 rings.

https://flic.kr/p/2o36pzb

 

[Jguyett]

I inspected the tensioner on an EA888 gen 3 in a Leon last week, you could see it was just about to go over to 8 rings.

Do you know how old it was? I just feel like any of the timing components being bad doesn’t make sense because they’re new.

 

[JMF]

If it is new (Tensioner and chain) I see high Phase position = -2.41º

For example, change of Tensioner (Old to New) and chain at 35.000km (21,730miles)
- Before the change Phase position = 0.66º
- After the change Phase position = -0.26º

Tensioner_Chain_Evolution

Group 91, 93 and 94 values of idle up to 3000rpm: Engine 130.000Km (81,200miles) New tensioner from 35,000km

In Europe 2.0TSI Gen II --> Engine code CCZB // 1.8TSI Gen II --> Engine code CDAA: may differ in load value, etc. (Group 91 & 93)

 

[Jguyett]

If it is new (Tensioner and chain) I see high Phase position = -2.41º

I really believe it’s all new, it looked brand new and I spoke to multiple people at the shop that built the engine as well has have wall the invoices of what was done.
So with that being said, would it be possible for an oil pressure issue to affect the VVT causing the high phase position?

 

[JMF]

If it had low enough oil pressure to affect the variable it would have some DTCs:

- 005707 Oil pressure switch: Fault P164B-000 => the oil pressure switch F22 for high pressure

- 005709 Oil pressure switch for low oil pressure: Fault P164B-000 => the oil pressure switch F378 for low pressure

- P000A/000010 - Camshaft A (Bank 1 Intake): Positioner slow response

P000A/000010 - Ross-Tech Wiki

wiki.ross-tech.com

Incorrect synchronization:
- 16395/P0011/000017 - Bank 1: Camshaft A (Intake): Delay set point not reached (over-advanced)

16395/P0011/000017 - Ross-Tech Wiki

wiki.ross-tech.com

Oil pump:
The oil pressure control valve N428 operates in two stages:
- Low pressure stage up to 3500rpm (The low pressure setting is approx. 1.8 bar)
- High pressure stage from 3500rpm (The pressure setting is approx. 3.3 bar)

If the N428 valve fails (or disconnects its connector) the oil pump always operates at the high pressure setting (approx. 3.3 bar)

No low oil pressure faults (DTCs).
No camshaft timing failures (DTCs)

I think you should check:

- Check the tensioner, to see if the new one or the old one is mounted.
"Check the timing chain for tensioner failure or chain stretch. Remove the timing cover cap and check the tensioner. Rotate the vibration damper in the direction of engine rotation until the chain tensioner piston is fully extended. Count the visible grooves on the piston. Visible grooves are all grooves to the right of the chain tensioner housing. If seven or more grooves are visible (in Tensioner new // four in tensioner old): the camshaft timing chain must be replaced... and tensioner"

 

[Jguyett]

If it had low enough oil pressure to affect the variable it would have some DTCs:

- P000A/000010 - Camshaft A (Bank 1 Intake): Positioner slow response

P000A/000010 - Ross-Tech Wiki

wiki.ross-tech.com

It did have P000A, I haven’t driven it since I cleared that code.

Oil pump:
The oil pressure control valve N428 operates in two stages:
- Low pressure stage up to 3500rpm (The low pressure setting is approx. 1.8 bar)
- High pressure stage from 3500rpm (The pressure setting is approx. 3.3 bar)

If the N428 valve fails (or disconnects its connector) the oil pump always operates at the high pressure setting (approx. 3.3 bar)

My car is N205, but I assume it’s the same operation stages?

- Check the tensioner, to see if the new one or the old one is mounted.
"Check the timing chain for tensioner failure or chain stretch. Remove the timing cover cap and check the tensioner. Rotate the vibration damper in the direction of engine rotation until the chain tensioner piston is fully extended. Count the visible grooves on the piston. Visible grooves are all grooves to the right of the chain tensioner housing. If seven or more grooves are visible (in Tensioner new // four in tensioner old): the camshaft timing chain must be replaced... and tensioner"

I know it’s a new style, but I’ll check the grooves when I have a chance.
I didn’t have a chance to plug into it today but I still plan to do that as well to check the chain values.
As far as mechanical things I’m gunna check - oil pickup screen, chain tensioner, N205 and actuator, cam bridge and pulling the lower timing cover to look at everything.

 

[JMF]

N205 is not the same solenoid valve as N428.

In VW the names of the solenoid valves and actuators are identical for any engine.

You didn't say until now that you had had the P000A fault, did you? !!


Now I understand why you suspect low oil pressure.

1) The solenoid valve N428, installed on the oil pump, regulates the oil pressure in two stages: low pressure = 1,8 bar up to 3500rpm approx. / high pressure = 3,3bar from 3500rpm approx.
If it fails it must come out error, for example: 005710 - Oil pressure regulating valve P164E - 000 - Electrical fault. And there is no check on the display (no MIL on) but oil pressure is assured = high pressure = 3.3bar always (from idle 720rpm to full load 6500rpm)

If you suspect low oil pressure, then, test the oil pressure. Oil pump failure? --> should generate DTCs 005707 &/or 005709

2) Possible causes of low oil pressure:
- Unsuitable lubricating oil, must meet VW 504/507 (0W30 or 5W30) or VW 502 (5W40) etc.
- prolonged oil changes, oil change every 5000 miles recommended -->(1.8TSI) and 2.0 TSI Gen II engine often has piston ring problems = high oil consumption, piston rings have been upgraded (view ETKA)
- Oil pump failure
- Oil suction line (number 4)
- Oil filter, a quality filter should be used.
- Oil filter holder spigot (number 16), typical failure when the engine is at operating temperature, then, it is when oil pressure drops.

3) (DTC P000A) Camshaft Adjustment Valve 1 (N205) faulty or camshaft control valve faulty (or low oil pressure, etc.) :
Solenoid valve N205 regulates the variable timing (intake camshaft) via the camshaft control valve (number 13). If it fails, the engine may be slow to start, have an unstable idle, timing noise, etc. The distributor valve is screwed-on anti clockwise

For operation of the camshaft adjuster, a non-return valve and a screen are integrated in bearing bridge in the pressurised oil duct to the camshaft adjuster.

4) If you check that the timing chain tensioner is OK --> 5)


5) It may also be that the chain is not adjusted properly (timing chain is not on its marks).

6) Workshop Manual 2.0TSI CBFA CCTA

https://www.mediafire.com/file/4onkc5r1rudo16y/VW_GTI_2.0TFSI_CBFA_CCTA_ed.2010_eng.pdf/file


... good luck!

 

[Jguyett]

N205 is not the same solenoid valve as N428.

In VW the names of the solenoid valves and actuators are identical for any engine.

My bad, I mixed up N428, I was thinking that was the Audi valve lift solenoid.

You didn't say until now that you had had the P000A fault, did you? !!

It was in my post from Monday, you must’ve missed it.

So I drove the car to work this morning - about 7 miles, and within about 5 miles or so I got a CEL.
Once I got to work I checked the codes and I had 2:
P000A - A camshaft position slow response (bank 1)
P0341 - Camshaft position sensor circuit range/performance

I cleared the codes to see if they’d come back on the drive home or not, and they didn’t.

If you suspect low oil pressure, then, test the oil pressure. Oil pump failure? --> should generate DTCs 005707 &/or 005709

I did test oil pressure at the sensor below the oil filter with the oil at full temp after driving it and it was within spec but that doesn’t mean it’s not low at/after the N205 or somewhere else in the engine.

But once again thank you so much, I’ll check everything when I have the chance and post an update.

 

[JMF]

It was in my post from Monday, you must’ve missed it.

My bad... sorry!