Audi RS5 and S5 B9 VAG rocker arm Update (premature failure)

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stefdds

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Ed: Thread title was: VCDS in action (@5:43 and 11:30) Audi RS5 B9

Interesting how the cam position sensor (?) Bank 2 prevented the car from starting ; designed to prevent further damage ??? (@12:55 unplugging sensor , car started) .

 
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Uwe

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Wow, it hurts my brain watching how much of a hassle it was just to get the spark plugs out and do a compression test on this engine!

Now I'm really curious what they find as the root cause, but I suppose that will have to wait for the next episode.

-Uwe-
 
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stefdds

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I'm currently in the market for one of these (2019 RS5) ; there are quite a few available around the country.
I agree Uwe, access is a real challenge (and its only a V6, only engine available in this model RS). I'll be sure to update the post when the next "episode" is available.
 
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morris39

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Interesting how the cam position sensor (?) Bank 2 prevented the car from starting ; designed to prevent further damage ??? (@12:55 unplugging sensor , car started) .

This video intrigues me. Professionally filmed, quite entertaining but seems to gloss/omit somethings but leaves me confused. Of course one explanation is that I am easily confused on this issue (true).
The engine oil seem quite dirty after 2 changes one after another.
Engine does not sound healthy (to me) at idle but I am not at all familiar with this motor.
I am unclear which other sensor is removed after the exhaust cam sensors are interchanged and the then starts. He says this is too complicated and very quickly. Oil sensor is mentioned elsewhere. Is this an oil pressure sensor? Are exhaust cams actuators oil operated?
VCDS cranking speed reads 200rpm, while one shot of dash shows 0 and the other 400-500 (~15 minutes) clearly bad if true. Compression is said to be balanced but no values. Spark plugs are removed/replaced but no attempt to look at piston tops. Given the Audi death judgement would this not be better starting point.
Please point out my misunderstandings .
 
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stefdds

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The engine oil seem quite dirty after 2 changes one after another.
HI Morris, I thought the same thing (oil looked terrible!) , but I think the Audi dealer only took a sample of the oil and did not do a change.
Engine does not sound healthy (to me) at idle but I am not at all familiar with this motor.
You are correct, I think either the cats are deleted or the exhaust is "open" ; IMO, not very appealing.
I am unclear which other sensor is removed after the exhaust cam sensors are interchanged and the then starts
I believe the interchange was with cam adjusters (I think) ; the exhaust cam position sensor on bank 2 was unplugged when it started.
He says this is too complicated and very quickly. Oil sensor is mentioned elsewhere. Is this an oil pressure sensor?
The oil Level sensor he mentioned , and changed, he thought may effect the starting since he read that the level may be a problem ; his research here on the forum.

VCDS cranking speed reads 200rpm, while one shot of dash shows 0 and the other 400-500 (~15 minutes) clearly bad if true. Compression is said to be balanced but no values. Spark plugs are removed/replaced but no attempt to look at piston tops.
yes, rpm VCDS reads from a different signal (?) than crank sensor. Compression ok, so just moved on in order to start ; ie most likely no bent valves. Pistons most likely ok since comp. readings were all so close.

Given the Audi death judgement would this not be better starting point.
Audi dealers typically do not rebuild engines as they offer a warranty so best to replace the entire engine ; where as this garage and owner is looking to save some money and it doesn't sound like he trusts the dealer. It may only need a cam and head or misc. parts. And the garage is willing to diagnose the problem precisely and only change what is needed. Thus, much less than 17,000 bps. !!! 5-6K USD ???? Stay tuned for the next episode!
 
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Uwe

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Second video is up:


-Uwe-
 
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stefdds

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Great information starting at 9:55 for checking that Cam position sensor ring ; ie, if one were to remove the sensor and inspect down the hole, the ring should be in the Center of the hole (10:00). Good to know any quick diagnostics. Looking forward to episode #3
 
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morris39

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HI Morris, I thought the same thing (oil looked terrible!) , but I think the Audi dealer only took a sample of the oil and did not do a change.

You are correct, I think either the cats are deleted or the exhaust is "open" ; IMO, not very appealing.

I believe the interchange was with cam adjusters (I think) ; the exhaust cam position sensor on bank 2 was unplugged when it started.

The oil Level sensor he mentioned , and changed, he thought may effect the starting since he read that the level may be a problem ; his research here on the forum.


yes, rpm VCDS reads from a different signal (?) than crank sensor. Compression ok, so just moved on in order to start ; ie most likely no bent valves. Pistons most likely ok since comp. readings were all so close.


Audi dealers typically do not rebuild engines as they offer a warranty so best to replace the entire engine ; where as this garage and owner is looking to save some money and it doesn't sound like he trusts the dealer. It may only need a cam and head or misc. parts. And the garage is willing to diagnose the problem precisely and only change what is needed. Thus, much less than 17,000 bps. !!! 5-6K USD ???? Stay tuned for the next episode!
Thanks, I see your points and they are helpful. I need to admitthat I committed a 'category' error by assuming that the job was to diagnose the problem whereas it appears that the instruction was 'fix the car'. Very different approach.
The second video clarifies some mysteries like dirty oil, inconsistent idle rpm.
A fuller backstory would have been helpful. Did Audi provide more info besides 'kaput'?
 
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DV52

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hmm....... very interesting exercise from a technical perspective - but the BIG question is: with the benefit of hindsight (which always delivers 20/20 vision) - was the original advice from the Audi dealer correct? Was it better to just replace the engine?

Don
 
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stefdds

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Well, by the look of that oil ,and thus most likely lack of maintenance, you have a point there! The dealer most likely was covering their behind. I think the dealer sent out a oil sample, I'm sure it had some metallic debris in it and the dealer most likely thought bearings ; and not failing roller rocker arms.

I would ask "what made that one displaced roller rocker seize" ; and the others starting to fail! Perhaps poor maintenance (no oil changes) and abusive driving.... or both.

What caught my attention was that without a signal from that cam position sensor (plugged in) , it created a crank - no start. Was that by Audi's design to save the engine? Or, just coincidence ?

Looking forward to Episode #3 !
 
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stefdds

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UPDATE: Episode #3 !

Note: per video, there is a updated rocker arm with different PN ; RS5's with this engine ,up to July 2019, will need the updated rocker arms. note times regarding rockers : 6:22 , 6:32*** , 6:40

VCDS coding new battery: 18:30 .

 
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stefdds

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These appear to be the updated Rocker Arms ; but..... I would verify before purchasing!

Note: "replaces" PN's in description 06M..... vs. 0P2....

Comments: according to Audizine forum and YT comments it appears that the "new" Rocker Arms were Implemented in June of 2018 ; However, not until July of 2019 (RS5's) , did the new arms begin to get installed on the assembly line. Again, please confirm with your own sources.

 
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stefdds

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Audizine forum thread on this issue ; will update as I am notified (I'm subscribed to it) should there be something official by VAG. As of this posting no TSB's, dealer knowledge, or any type of announcement. A lot of "hand wringing" but it is definitely a concern!


I sent a text, earlier in the day, to a contact I have at a Audi Dealership. I mentioned to him regarding this issue on 2018 / 2019 3.0L engines S4,S5,RS5 etc. ; his comment back to me was quote: "OMG yea the rocker arm issue" . So, for what it's worth, it was recognized and there certainly sounds like there is some "activity" at the Dealership level.
 
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stefdds

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It appears what is happening is the "needle" bearings in the rocker wheel are falling out of the rocker arm assembly and usually find there way to the bottom of the pan / sump. I think it is then that the arm assembly is "thrown" off of its pivot base.

20210823-224114.jpg

Also, below is a link with exploded diagram of valve train and associated parts with parts list: note item #22, OP2...... is updated revised rocker arm.

 
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Hello there my fellow Audi lovers, my name is Josh I went ahead as the very few to replace these rocker arms in my 2018 Audi s4 with 48k miles (with engine still in car). Success as well my engine sounds amazing and I couldn’t believe the difference it made, if you’re in love with your s4 and wanting to get rid of it for this reason DONT I can help especially if your in the southern Cali area (OC area) don’t let this discourage you from keeping your car

 
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Uwe

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Several messages redundant with Josh's other thread have been removed. Josh's other thread is here:

@Itsmys4: Repeatedly posting the same thing in various places in this forum is considered SPAMMING. I've previously asked you politely not to do that. If you continue to do so, there will be consequences.

-Uwe-
 
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Itsmys4

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Several messages redundant with Josh's other thread have been removed. Josh's other thread is here:

@Itsmys4: Repeatedly posting the same thing in various places in this forum is considered SPAMMING. I've previously asked you politely not to do that. If you continue to do so, there will be consequences.

-Uwe-
My apologies I guess I didn’t get the reference won’t happen again
 
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Uwe

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This is not exactly a Market Place.
That's correct.

However, just to be fully transparent: There are a few members here who are allowed to offer/advertise their services on the Ross-Tech forum. They are all people who fix cars and/or do diagnostics for a living. They all have the status of "Professional User", and they have earned that status by repeatedly helping others with various diagnostic-related issues.

-Uwe-
 
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