Ukraine

[JMR]

I am still trying to figure out how the " billions of euros and usdollars " sent to Ukraine in weapons and other forms of aid will be " recovered " . Cause i don t know of any country giving out millions and billions of fiat money to another country just as " donation"..... Any ideas ?

 

[Sebastian]

It will be recovered by you living in peace in your cozy and warm Romanian home w/o Putin and his Z-Squads invading the rest of Europe.

Seriously, what makes you think that what they do to the Ukrainian people would not happen in Romania? Why would they suddenly change their behavior? Why would they not rape your women and children while making you watch? Why would they not shoot you in front of your wife and kids? You may want to consider getting off of your high horse. This is not about money, it hasn't been since the beginning. It is about ideology and to Putin, you as Romanian are as worthless as any Ukrainian - maybe less, if that is even possible.

 

[JMR]

It will be recovered by you living in peace in your cozy and warm Romanian home w/o Putin and his Z-Squads invading the rest of Europe.

Seriously, what makes you think that what they do to the Ukrainian people would not happen in Romania? Why would they suddenly change their behavior? Why would they not rape your women and children while making you watch? Why would they not shoot you in front of your wife and kids? You may want to consider getting off of your high horse. This is not about money, it hasn't been since the beginning. It is about ideology and to Putin, you as Romanian are as worthless as any Ukrainian - maybe less, if that is even possible.

oy man @Sebastian you really have something against me personally as i see it and all that because i don't " blame " Putin. All your comments towards me could not come just because i see a different story , is it ?? Anyway, blaming Putin or not is my prerogative and i will use it as i see fit . The above question was posted purely from an economic standpoint, i just wanna see if anyone has an idea about it ( i don't , or whatever idea i might have seems to be against the flow of things). No, it was just a question of how someone " lending" so much money and the means of recovering it.
Alas, Putin is not coming to Romania...what's he gonna do here ? Whats left to take? Not a goddamn thing i tell you. It's all been taken ! If my government wasn't so dumb and corrupt/slave to other powers , Romania would've been perhaps the most self sufficient country in the entire EU and that is by judging resources , land relief , sea access and strategic location within the EU it would've surpassed economically top countries in Europe. But...it wasn't meant to be ! I don't think we need to " swim" in the Putin is coming over my/your country hysteria.
My problem here is this : fake news, fake news , fake news, fake news, fake news , fake news and MORE fake news about " what's happening in Ukraine " everywhere you look !!!
It's really f&^%&^ disgusting the level of public manipulation and even more the fervor with which public eats those f&^$^% fake news , it's like they are zombies in a small budget zombie movie ! I wanna puke everytime i open a news channel because i know that the next day everything will come debunked !!
So no, i'm not on any high horse ....i don't have a horse and i am walking mostly .

 

[Sebastian]

Anyway, blaming Putin or not is my prerogative and i will use it as i see fit .

That is where you are wrong. It is not. He will be judged by the International Criminal Court in The Hague like any other war criminal in the modern history of our planet. It then is very well your your prerogative to agree with the resulting court decision or not, but that will be a personal opinion which likely is not based on facts and the necessary legal understanding.

The above question was posted purely from an economic standpoint, i just wanna see if anyone has an idea about it ( i don't , or whatever idea i might have seems to be against the flow of things). No, it was just a question of how someone " lending" so much money and the means of recovering it.

Take a look back in history. Look at how much money was loaned to Germany in and around WW2. Your question can easily historically be answered, as the effect here can be expected to be the same and even more so dramatic. If you are really interested, read up on the 1953 London Agreement as well as the (world) impact of the Marshal Plan. On a personal note, asking questions is one thing but this is all public knowledge which - with a little interest in history - explains many of the current actions. The impact as well as the recovery effects you are asking for are well documented and known to historians.

 

[Uwe]

He will be judged by the International Criminal Court in The Hague like any other war criminal in the modern history of our planet.

Really? How many US Presidents have been judged by the International Criminal Court due to their invasions of other sovereign countries?

-Uwe-

 

[vreihen]

Really? How many US Presidents have been judged by the International Criminal Court due to their invasions of other sovereign countries?

"W" deserves a look by them, IMHO.....

 

[RGH0]

JMR you may debate whether this US foreign aid is a "donation" or comes with strings attached as I am sure you will. Germany is the next biggest donor, Your mate Putin does very little in this area with much of its small aid budget going to Cuba. Much of Putin's mate Xi's "foreign aid" is in the form of loans


"In fiscal year 2020 (October 1, 2019 to September 30, 2020), the U.S. government allocated the following amounts for aid: Total economic and military assistance: $51.05 billion. Total military assistance: $11.64 billion. Total economic assistance: $39.41 billion, of which USAID Implemented: $25.64 billion"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid

United States foreign aid - Wikipedia​

Apart from the fact that the Ukraine has already paid in blood for defending Western Europe including Romania I am sure the Ukraine will be able to pay back any debt owed just in scrap Russian steel

 

[DV52]

Really? How many US Presidents have been judged by the International Criminal Court due to their invasions of other sovereign countries?

-Uwe-

@Uwe ...... with no offense intended - Shirley yours must be an intentionally rhetoric question given that as far as USA is concerned, the International Criminal Court has no jurisdiction and no legitimacy when it comes to any American actions?

I think that I'm correct in saying that USA has the singular distinction of being the ONLY world-leading country not to have signed the so-called "Rome Statute" - which is the foundational document for the ICC, in the Hague.

Whilst we all degenerate Putin's actions in Ukraine (apology @JMR - I don't share your views about Putin), at least Russia is a signatory to the ICC (incidentally, Australia is also a signatory - see HERE)

Who can forget the famous communique from the in-famous George Walker Bush in which he formally notified the UN that America did not recognize any obligation toward the Rome Statute. And I'm sure that it was just coincidental that the timing of this advice and his decision to declare war on Iraq were less than 12 months apart. Yes, just coincidence - I'm sure!!!

I don't know what America's official line is at present regarding ICC membership - I recall that Clinton made a half-hearted attempt to join - then failed for some unknown reason to submit the proposal to the Senate.

Again, I'm not certain - but I think that the status of your country is as an observer only - maybe?

Maybe America believes that if it doesn't sign the Rome Statute, it can never transgress the 11 x crimes that constitute a breach of the Geneva convention?

Admittedly IMHO as a foreigner -but it's not a good look for America to claim the moral high ground about the human attrocities in Putin's war and then not to sign the Rome Statute!!

Don

 

[JMR]

See..everytime i post a comment the thread comes alive and we all get a bit more info and we all have a passionate personal opinion. I love it. I believe that while US Aid is a good program it does comes with strings attached. However , that s the working of things , natural or not. How do you think US "pressures " many and most of the countries to follow and behave ? Through US Aid . You do..you get. You don t , you re screwed. But that s not up to debate here yet. Yes , US in not part of the Rome statute and then few years back if i remember right some countries designated a special prosecutor of the ICC to look into some US war crimes but then he got fired or something and Trump really balked at the idea if i remember right saying that ICC is a corrupt body with no powers over US. But now..seems that the ICC is most sought after. You cant make that up i tell you. So , if US has a pattern of bullying..why should not Russia have one ? Just wondering with my peasant little mind here... And yeah , Ukraine is not defending freedom or Europe..let s be serious about it when making that claim . At best they are defending themself...

 

[PetrolDave]

My sister-in-law used to be married to a British diplomat and got posted to several embassies in Africa and Europe, where she worked in the consular department.

As such she saw the operation of UK foreign aid, and is now a firm opponent of any foreign aid - especially cash. How come? She saw the aid going almost exclusively to those who were either rich or in positions of power, and almost none going to those in real need (except when cameras were present).

Given the scandals in recent years it's not stretching credibility to far to believe that this same misdirection of aid applies to aid from all countries.

 

[DV52]

See..everytime i post a comment the thread comes alive and we all get a bit more info and we all have a passionate personal opinion. I love it.

@JMR: Agree - the web (including this forum) is replete with countless words of every flavor and topic- with each piece of text begging for our attention . But yes, the only posts that have any value are those that are written with passion - the rest is just inconsequential noise!!!!

If you are indeed a catalyst for passionate prose in this place, then keep-up the good work - please!!!

My sister-in-law used to be married to a British diplomat and got posted to several embassies in Africa and Europe, where she worked in the consular department.

As such she saw the operation of UK foreign aid, and is now a firm opponent of any foreign aid - especially cash. How come? She saw the aid going almost exclusively to those who were either rich or in positions of power, and almost none going to those in real need (except when cameras were present).

Given the scandals in recent years it's not stretching credibility to far to believe that this same misdirection of aid applies to aid from all countries.

Dave: What an interesting sister-in-law - I hope that you have long discussions with her!!

IMO, the primary problem with foreign-aid is that most folk believe the hype - which tries to confuse it with "charity". The confusion is a deliberate marketing ploy by the donating entity to give the impression of generosity and succor - but as you infer, the two are very different!!

Truth is that foreign aid is in every sense nothing more than another "transaction" between countries - in much the same way as a loan by the world-bank. And as such, foreign-aid must ALWAYS be brought-to-account at some point (normally this happens as political payback, or influence by the donating country).

As you say, ain't nothing unusual, or surprising about this practice - the problem is purely one of spin !!

 

[Fred's Imports]

Rest in piece(s)...you fought valiantly.

Dear Ukrainian people. We are the 36th Navy Brigade named after the counter-admiral Mikhail Bilinsky, left Crimea without betraying the oaths of 2014 and continued to perform the duty of defense of Ukraine. From the beginning of the exit we have been defending Mariupol for 47 days. We were bombed from airplanes, we were shot from artillery, tanks and other firematerials. We kept the defense worthy by doing the impossible. But any resources have a potential to run out. During the combat, we were once handed 50 122 guns, 20 min a little enlavs and starlink Elon Musk - spybo Elon, he had a lot of air strikes and still works. We have not been handed over any more. Without the possibility of defending themselves, the opponent gradually pushed us to the Azovmash plant, surrounded the fire and now is trying to destroy us. There was an option to bring us reserves to strengthen and boost the defense. There were options for the brigade to make a breakthrough and join their troops. We reported this to OTU East and they started planning the operation. Sodol, Delatitsky tried to do something, but their senior headquarters were closed. We reported about it in the OOS they said hold on we are working, promised a helicopter that never flew. We talked to the commander in chief who promised to unblock. We talked with a Garantee who guaranteed us either a political or military solution of the situation. For more than a month, the Marines fought without refilling ammunition, without food, without water, almost a lacquer from the puddle and died in packs. The mountain of wounded makes up almost half of the crew. Those who have unbroken limbs and can walk, return in order. Infantry all died and gunfighters are led by gunmen, zenitich, contacts of the driver and the police. Even an orchestra. Dying but fighting. Gradually we are coming to an end. Wise generals advise taking ammunition from your enemy. Probably not extinct these Sava parquettes, so many people will die for them in vain. There were chances. There were opportunities, but due to the silliness, they were not implemented. No one wants to communicate with us anymore because we are written. Today will probably be an extreme fight since there is no BC left. Next up into the palm of the hand. Further is death for some, but captivity for some. Dear Ukrainian people. I don't know what's next, but I really ask you to remember the Marines with a kind word and no matter how they develop further, do not talk badly about the Marines. They did everything possible and impossible. For we are FAITHFUL FOREVER! 11.04.2022…

 

[mattylondon]

Rest in piece(s)...you fought valiantly.

Dear Ukrainian people. We are the 36th Navy Brigade named after the counter-admiral Mikhail Bilinsky, left Crimea without betraying the oaths of 2014 and continued to perform the duty of defense of Ukraine. From the beginning of the exit we have been defending Mariupol for 47 days. We were bombed from airplanes, we were shot from artillery, tanks and other firematerials. We kept the defense worthy by doing the impossible. But any resources have a potential to run out. During the combat, we were once handed 50 122 guns, 20 min a little enlavs and starlink Elon Musk - spybo Elon, he had a lot of air strikes and still works. We have not been handed over any more. Without the possibility of defending themselves, the opponent gradually pushed us to the Azovmash plant, surrounded the fire and now is trying to destroy us. There was an option to bring us reserves to strengthen and boost the defense. There were options for the brigade to make a breakthrough and join their troops. We reported this to OTU East and they started planning the operation. Sodol, Delatitsky tried to do something, but their senior headquarters were closed. We reported about it in the OOS they said hold on we are working, promised a helicopter that never flew. We talked to the commander in chief who promised to unblock. We talked with a Garantee who guaranteed us either a political or military solution of the situation. For more than a month, the Marines fought without refilling ammunition, without food, without water, almost a lacquer from the puddle and died in packs. The mountain of wounded makes up almost half of the crew. Those who have unbroken limbs and can walk, return in order. Infantry all died and gunfighters are led by gunmen, zenitich, contacts of the driver and the police. Even an orchestra. Dying but fighting. Gradually we are coming to an end. Wise generals advise taking ammunition from your enemy. Probably not extinct these Sava parquettes, so many people will die for them in vain. There were chances. There were opportunities, but due to the silliness, they were not implemented. No one wants to communicate with us anymore because we are written. Today will probably be an extreme fight since there is no BC left. Next up into the palm of the hand. Further is death for some, but captivity for some. Dear Ukrainian people. I don't know what's next, but I really ask you to remember the Marines with a kind word and no matter how they develop further, do not talk badly about the Marines. They did everything possible and impossible. For we are FAITHFUL FOREVER! 11.04.2022…

Deputy mayor Serhiy Orlov told the BBC that "battles for Mariupol continue".

He also denied reports about a marine brigade which posted to Facebook about running out of ammunition and facing a "last battle".

"The information about the marines is fake. I don't comment on fakes."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61068650

 

[Fred's Imports]

That report came directly from Azov battalion's FB channel yesterday, possibly they faked it like they have everything else.

Understand one thing, we are being HOSED.

Find better news sources.

 

[vreihen]

Al Jazeera FTW!!!!!

 

[DV52]

hmm........ my hope is that some time soon Putin will make the decision to take direct control of Russian forces in Ukraine.

History tells us that this is a not uncommon practice for despots to adopt: Ironically given the theater of war - Hitler did it for Operation Barbarossa when his Generals failed during the Soviet winter. And Stalin did the same but for the exact opposite reason - because his General (Zhukov) was becoming too popular. The decision was disastrous for both Despots

My hope is that Putin's ego is greater than his value of history!!!

Don

 

[morris39]

Please excuse this obvious comment, it is not meant to be conceited but the question sorely intrigues me.
Sometimes the most realistic grasp of the situation is by observing what is not said (or imaged) but what can be expected in similar past circumstances.
The present discussion seems like a good example.

 

[DV52]

Please excuse this obvious comment, it is not meant to be conceited but the question sorely intrigues me.
Sometimes the most realistic grasp of the situation is by observing what is not said (or imaged) but what can be expected in similar past circumstances.
The present discussion seems like a good example.

Please explain???

 

[Crasher]

I would prefer to see Vlad the Mad face trial but it would be a nightmare security wise, better a 9mm soft nose to the lower gut and put those responsible for war crimes in the dock, right down to the grunt at the front who can’t do their job as a soldier without raping and murdering.

 

[morris39]

Please explain???

Too long, too tedious and ultimately unconvincing. An example might serve. Common/objective knowledge available from news media of military conflicts in e.g. the Balkans, Caucasus, Middle East during the last generation is a reference that should be a requisite before opining (and very strongly).

So the strategy for selection of attack targets (cities/regions) may be a fair indicator for possible/probable intentions re unconditional surrender, ultimate negotiation aims (war end), escalation, possibility of imminent truce etc. All important if the aim is minimizing harm in the here and now. Where is this discussion?