Ukraine

[DanConnor]

@RGH0 , as you are accustomed to by now, let's agree to disagree here:

1 . If your nazi definition for Romania is that the "white"/ pure blood romanians like me ( i could probably trace my family tree back 10 generations ) hate with a passion all that is GYPSY ( ours or other countries gipsies ) and if we keep in mind that few tens of years ago a certain romanian born " Mareshal " ( head of the army ) wanted to ,started and was nearly successful in a countrywide campaign to exterminate everything a shade darker than white , meaning ALL the gypsies here at the time , then yeah, you could find nazism in Romania. I can proudly state that i hate their guts and that s that, no one can change my mind about it , period. They are running drugs, prostitution rings and all bad stuff and when Europe opened up for us , they fucking invaded it like cockroaches , stole , murdered, abducted and ran/ still running all kinds of bad businesses there and they gave ALL romanians a bad name. I felt and still feel so bad about it that i had personally apologized to @Crasher in another post a while ago about the romanian gypsies ruining his beloved country . Other than that , in my whole life i've never heard of Nazi factions inside Romania. There could be...but never heard/seen of them.

2. Bloomberg just reported few days ago that russia and it's economy is well and alive and kicking, even reporting massive income/tons of gold acquired lately .

3.The swiss...russians will fuck them up if they dare rob them. No more explanation for that . They could freeze russian assets , but never rob the russians.They are NOT that stupid, but for the sake of showing they care,,,they made a spectacle of it.

4. Tanks are not coming..but IF and if they are, there will be a load of useless pile of old metal...nothing fancy or really useful to them. Won;t help Zdrelensky none. What, few tanks will turn the tide? Come on, let's be serious, it s more propaganda and thin air magic the tanks will turn the tide ....no useful shit.If you still believe that tanks will make a difference , then you need to study what a battalion/regiment /platoon /company of tanks requires ( personnel training, logistics, amunition , fuel and related maintenance , etc etc )

5.see 2

6.hey, that news was on pro and antirussian news..so...it's a mistery so far...

7. I could see your point on that

8. The turks are the turks, they are holding the lines of arabs for the westeros , they still have a say so for this side of Marmara Sea and the other side of it, they still have power, they still call shots. Erdogan has balls, he is a nationalist , got some balls and not affraid to show them...you kinda got to respect that no ?

9.Hungarians...mmmmh...though i don't like to keep them close to the vest ( loooong time romanian-hungarian political / traditional folklore / land and language borders disagreements and the long time held hate that at one time Hungary was part of an empire who subjugated my people a long long time ago ) i would ve liked my government to show some sort of nationalism just like Hungary...but no..our govt it's a slave..so then that is that. We keep shooting ourselves in the foot. Austrians were the smartest of Europe, they are part of EU but not of NATO. Were long time ago a part of the Austro-hungarian empire, the hungarians did us dirty then , the austrians do us dirty now...so no romanian love lost for these two countries ) , but yet you have to respect their smarts no ? Who the fuck will ever attack them so deep in Europe and for what reason? Smart people if you ask me, they don't have to contribute a penny to NATO's budget yet they are still protected. Smarties , no ?

10. it's worth commenting on that , here's another company forced to loose money to appease certain govts. Well, they will loose some, they will gain some...it was just a funny news to me, sorry it didn't make you smile

And for last, why the fuck people keep propagating / floating the idea that Russia will invade every country on the continent?? WHY ? People keep saying that for no good reason whatsoever ...scare and dirty tactics...

Do you have link to that Bloomberg article from 2. by any chance? I thought Russian economy would suffer from so many sanctions.
Also obviously they won't invade other countries. AFAIK, back when soviet fell apart there were agreement that NATO won't expand towards boarders of ex-soviets which wasn't upheld(saw a video on JRE talking bout this), hence why it escalated over last 4 decades.

 

[RGH0]

Read the history to understand that there was no agreement not to expand Nato and formally Nato has always maintained it open door policy. It is just one more piece of Kremlin propganda.

Ukraine: the history behind Russia's claim that Nato promised not to expand to the east

Russia insists that there was an agreement not to expand Nato eastwards after the end of the USSR. History begs to differ.

theconversation.com

Whether Russias economy craters or not makes no real difference. Europe has separated itself from Russian energy blackmail and the Russian economy is the size of Canadas and long term cannot face off the bulk of the Western economies with about 25 times the economic clout. Russia has stopped publishing its own economic statistics to confuse whats going on also.

The following YouTube presentation explains beter than I can what is going on with the Russian economy

 

[Uwe]

Read the history to understand that there was no agreement not to expand Nato and formally Nato has always maintained it open door policy. It is just one more piece of Kremlin propganda.

"Formal Agreement", perhaps not, but certainly a lot of broken promises. It's all there in black and white, and clearly isn't Russian propaganda.

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

Seems like the only conclusion that the rest of the world can possibly draw is that promises made by NATO members are worthless.

-Uwe-

 

[Bruce]

and which government holds to their previous commitments?

Politicians change their positions more frequently than they change their undershorts (which are usually in dire need of change).

Watching the changes is like observing a weather vane sitting 100 meters behind the corner of a large and tall building mounted 2/3 from the top of the building. When the winds come around the large building they swirl and the vane cannot point into the true direction of the wind... It just swings back and forth forever searching for a clear path to follow. Likewise, political promises by governments swing and oscillate.

One might ask, "Why would one put a vane at the corner and below the top of a tall building?" The answer would be: "Its the only place it would fit." Another wise political conundrum! Engineers were assigned to figure out why it would not indicate proper direction! (In this case study of all things gubermint, the vane was attached to a windmill for generating power to a remote radio transmitter. The powers that be could not understand why we could not get good results and would not listen to the engineers suggestions... Another trait of governments? Inability to listen?)

 

[RGH0]

Hi Uwe
Engaging in "history wars" is generally a waste of effort as there is always conflicting information and conflicting opinions and if you choose your place, date and time in history selectively you can prove almost anything.

In the end there was still no justification for the invasion of a soveriegn country in 2022 just to expand Putins dreams of empire. Maybe if the USA had placed nuclear missiles on the Ukrainian border 600km from Moscow I would have a different opinion but they did not.

Note Nato did not invade Kaliningrad in the last 30 years just because Russia has nuclear missles there 300 km from Warsaw.

 

[Uwe]

In the end there was still no justification for the invasion of a soveriegn country in 2022

I more-or-less agree with this. What I disagree with is our involvement in what is essentially a border dispute between two countries that used to be one country on another continent. If Ukraine's western neighbors want to be involved, that's on them, but the USA should have stayed out of it -- not just in 2022 either, but back in 2014 as well.

Note Nato did not invade Kaliningrad in the last 30 years just because Russia has nuclear missles there 300 km from Warsaw.

Uhm, it isn't Russia's fault that Warsaw is only 300 km away from Russian territory.

-Uwe-

 

[Bruce]

Uhm, it isn't Russia's fault that Warsaw is only 300 km away from Russian territory.

Some may argue that when the Ukraine conflict is finished, that should Russia be the victor, that Russia may decide to make Warsaw 0 km from their territory. Certainly this thread has some who believe that is the long term goal of Mr. Putin/the Russians.

It is that supposition and fear that prompted the politicos in the West to respond. Right or wrong, that is what is.

Then too, the Western politicos want to control all things... just like all others.

The question I ask: Where does it all end? The annihilation of all?

All these actions are done in the name of "Peace". Seems to me that some have a very different idea of peace than I have.

War will always be with us one book says. Just as the poor will always be with us. There are issues in our world that we will never work to resolve... most of us will just keep trying to survive as best we can. Just maybe, for a few days, we can have some peace.

 

[davisev5225]

What I disagree with is our involvement in what is essentially a border dispute between two countries that used to be one country on another continent. If Ukraine's western neighbors want to be involved, that's on them, but the USA should have stayed out of it -- not just in 2022 either, but back in 2014 as well.

ABSOLUTELY! Also, we need to stop pretending to be the world's police and "peacekeeping" force, and start forcing our "allies" to pay for their own damned defense rather than subsidizing everything for them. All the money these nations should be spending on defense seems to instead be used to constantly attack us and our laws/policies for daring to be different than the EU.

 

[JMR]

ABSOLUTELY! Also, we need to stop pretending to be the world's police and "peacekeeping" force, and start forcing our "allies" to pay for their own damned defense rather than subsidizing everything for them. All the money these nations should be spending on defense seems to instead be used to constantly attack us and our laws/policies for daring to be different than the EU.

Weeeeell..that there has a catch 22 to it. They should spend more on " american made " weapons ? The industry that is only so happy to provide the means ? Hmm... And why all countries should be armed up to their teeth ? Why some can have nuclear powers while others are not allowed ? Why some countries "have to " buy american defensive systems and not some made by whatever other country ? And no , don t tell me american made weapons are the best... So that statement of yours contradicts the " americans pay for other country defenses ". Nope..american weapons are forced to be part of other countries defense weapons. Nothing against american made stuff , we are just talking political points here. And if the EU leadership had any balls..they will tell US : hey , you do you , we do us ...you stay on your side..we on ours. But they do not posess those balls god forgive them as they were elected with american help to the positions they are right now .

 

[davisev5225]

Weeeeell..that there has a catch 22 to it. They should spend more on " american made " weapons ? The industry that is only so happy to provide the means ? Hmm... And why all countries should be armed up to their teeth ? Why some can have nuclear powers while others are not allowed ? Why some countries "have to " buy american defensive systems and not some made by whatever other country ? And no , don t tell me american made weapons are the best... So that statement of yours contradicts the " americans pay for other country defenses ". Nope..american weapons are forced to be part of other countries defense weapons. Nothing against american made stuff , we are just talking political points here. And if the EU leadership had any balls..they will tell US : hey , you do you , we do us ...you stay on your side..we on ours. But they do not posess those balls god forgive them as they were elected with american help to the positions they are right now .

As far as I'm concerned, each country can buy whatever offensive & defensive weaponry they want, from whomever is willing to sell it, or they can produce their own if they're so inclined. I certainly have no preconceptions about continuing to be a world-wide arms dealer of a country, though I'm not against USA weapons being sold to whomever wants them - I'm just tired of it being the forced default... and of the "buyers" (mainly NATO countries) being more akin to recipients of charity than customers. "...forcing our allies to pay for their own damned defense..." was a way of saying "we won't give you weapons, equipment, and soldiers anymore, you'll have to buy and provide your own", not "you must now donate to the US Military Industrial Complex".

To turn a phrase: "your country's defense is your problem, not mine". If you want to buy USA, go right ahead, but I do not want to mandate it. I just want my tax money to be used for my own country's welfare for a change, rather than subsidizing the entire continent of Europe (plus a few other countries).

And regarding nukes, I don't pretend to have all the information at hand. The best thing I can say to that is: the countries that currently/already have them have demonstrated a general measure of restraint in specifically NOT using them. The same can't be said for all countries. There's a number of banana republics (and North Korea) that I'm reasonably certain wouldn't demonstrate the same restraint.

 

[Sebastian]

There was a semi on-topic discussion about natural gas markets a while back in this thread and as of today, we have access to some in depth calculations on the subject.

Warning, this goes beyond the layman's rederic and throws some actual numbers in the game.

https://www.duh.de/fileadmin/user_upload/download/Pressemitteilungen/Energie/LNG/BMWK_ewi_LNG_analyse.pdf

While this is in German and a very detailed read, it also shows other EU countries as well as Russian export numbers. Long story short, we'll do just fine without Russian gas - in all scenarios.

 

[JMR]

I agree with some of your points but let s not forget that Turkyie wanted to buy and did too russian S400 defense systems and US got pretty pissed off and halted delivery on war planes ( F35 s i think )paid a while back ( do you know of that story ) ? . So..there is not much of a free choice where one in NATO could buy it s defense systems. As far as that restraint go in the world of WMD , let s not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki ever. So much for restraint ...they really wanted to test those atomic bombs and they found the pretext to do it when it was not called for . But , history is written by the victor or so it seems . Anyway , there will be pro and contra views on everything ...always...

 

[JMR]

There was a semi on-topic discussion about natural gas markets a while back in this thread and as of today, we have access to some in depth calculations on the subject.

Warning, this goes beyond the layman's rederic and throws some actual numbers in the game.

https://www.duh.de/fileadmin/user_upload/download/Pressemitteilungen/Energie/LNG/BMWK_ewi_LNG_analyse.pdf

While this is in German and a very detailed read, it also shows other EU countries as well as Russian export numbers. Long story short, we'll do just fine without Russian gas - in all scenarios.

Perhaps..but at what price comes that independence ? Everything nealy doubled...we are poorer now than one year ago...and it keeps spiraling out of control. The power of fiat currency is on decline ... Internally , Russia replaced every western companies that left a spot with Indian , Chinese and domestic brands / manufacturers . So they got a free infrastructure while the companies that investes in such infrastructure are out of money / profits and now they are taking huge loses . As far as loosing export power of oil/derivates/ gas..they shifted that towards Asia, India/Africa..so not much loss for them.

 

[davisev5225]

I agree with some of your points but let s not forget that Turkyie wanted to buy and did too russian S400 defense systems and US got pretty pissed off and halted delivery on war planes ( F35 s i think )paid a while back ( do you know of that story ) ? . So..there is not much of a free choice where one in NATO could buy it s defense systems. As far as that restraint go in the world of WMD , let s not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki ever. So much for restraint ...they really wanted to test those atomic bombs and they found the pretext to do it when it was not called for . But , history is written by the victor or so it seems . Anyway , there will be pro and contra views on everything ...always...

You're arguing what is, I'm arguing what I believe should be. They are semi-opposing scenarios. Of course you're going to find problems with what currently is...

And regarding the atomic bombs, I won't deny that the civilian deaths were terrible. What you don't seem to know is we gave PLENTY of advanced notice of what we were going to do and practically begged the civilian populations to evacuate. They ignored it, both times; in fact, with the 2nd bomb, the Japanese assumed we just did a really effective carpet bombing on the first run. Japan actually keeps copies of leaflets we air-dropped over their cities (that's 4 separate links - 3 examples and one hand-written account) in their war museums. Also, most analyses of the death count have concluded that FEWER people died as a result of those two bombs than would otherwise have died if we continued fighting the "traditional" way island-by-island.

 

[Sebastian]

Since Michael Thumann's book 'Revanche' is only available in German, some here might find this English interview quite informative.

‎Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes: How Putin created the most threatening regime in the world – with Michael Thumann auf Apple Podcasts

‎Sendung Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes, Folge How Putin created the most threatening regime in the world – with Michael Thumann – 9. Feb. 2023

podcasts.apple.com

 

[stefdds]

 

[JMR]

Awwww..what s with this thread ? Is it dead ?? War / special op still going...hmmmm...cousin Zelensky still using that khaki shirt...uncle Putin still bombing him...grandpa Biden still frothing at the mouth...

 

[RGH0]

Just waiting

 

[Uwe]

It's a good thing Ukraine denied responsibility for yesterday's (very lame) drone attack on the Kremlin.

Had they admitted it, Zelensky would surely never see or hear the Kinzhal with his name on it.

-Uwe-

 

[JMR]

What were they shooting with...firecrackers ??