Ukraine

   #21  

JMR

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"2 days of Hard pushing" is that tanks, shells and rockets and deaths ... nice way to describe it.

Also if you now on the front line and Putins next target perhaps
...i have no other way of describing it . It was a one two punch and there was nothing else , the reality downed on Ukraine pretty quick .I am really feeling sorry for the people of Ukraine, i don't ever wish to be in their shoes, BUT...no one seems to be listening to Putin and he's a man in power let me tell you. So he's nice and smiles..and truth to be told i've never ever heard this guy lie..People deride him because the mass media it's all against him as ordered..When this fucker says he's serious about business ..he's serious about business, there are no two ways about it. Guys remember Georgia ? It fell like dominoes. Crimeea ? Bam bam , done in few days. I hope this will end quickly with no further loss of life and destruction. Now here is a country with balls of steel
 
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Yes Putin is still fighting the cold war and independent democratic countries on his borders is something he does not like. He wants client states and will do what he has to to achieve that unfortunately. What is not clear is where will he stop if ever.

Using western democratic morality against the west is not about stating that the west has the moral high ground in anyway. It is about the fact that in western democracies people agonise over every decision and step to move down the path from peace to war and debate for ever after the rights and wrongs of those decisions as evidenced by many of the comments above

Dictators and Autocrats have no such qualms and take advantage of the western democracies hesitancy over and over again.
 
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DV52

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...i have no other way of describing it . It was a one two punch and there was nothing else , the reality downed on Ukraine pretty quick .I am really feeling sorry for the people of Ukraine, i don't ever wish to be in their shoes, BUT...no one seems to be listening to Putin and he's a man in power let me tell you. So he's nice and smiles..and truth to be told i've never ever heard this guy lie..People deride him because the mass media it's all against him as ordered..When this fucker says he's serious about business ..he's serious about business, there are no two ways about it. Guys remember Georgia ? It fell like dominoes. Crimeea ? Bam bam , done in few days. I hope this will end quickly with no further loss of life and destruction. Now here is a country with balls of steel


@JMR: Of course it's a gross generalization, but I've always liked the ability of Romanians to distill a situation down to its bare essentials!! No fuss, no complications - just the facts!!! Respect!!:thumbs:

I have no special understanding of Putin's motives for annexing (not the correct word) Ukraine. Early statements from Russia claimed that they were concerned about Ukraine joining NATO and having NATO forces on their door step. But this clearly wasn't true because there are already other NATO countries bordering Russia.

You seem to be saying that the conflict is because Ukrainians have always been Russian and it's an attempt to bring these peoples back under the umbrella of the old Soviet regime. Given Putin's KGB background and his training, this seems a reasonable hypothesis.

I agree - what else can Ukraine do? It's army is about 1/3 that of Russia and Ukraine's air force is about 1/5 that of Russia. Without help from allies, Ukraine is right-royally-rogered in this war. In truth and notwithstanding the rhetoric from Ukraine's leaders, the outcome of this war was indeed decided before the first missile was fired!!

I'm surprised that the neighboring countries are viewing Russia's expansion activities so calmly! It suggests a belief that Russia's plans are limited - I hope you are correct!!

Don
 
   #24  

Adam

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i've never ever heard this guy lie
Really?? Oh boy. No wonder, if you follow Russia Today news... ;-)
RT is full of propaganda in aid of Putin’s despotic regime.

One simple question among many others: how long has Putin been president? Over 20 years, right?
His nation must love him unconditionally...
 
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JMR

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Really?? Oh boy. No wonder, if you follow Russia Today news... ;-)
RT is full of propaganda in aid of Putin’s despotic regime.

One simple question among many others: how long has Putin been president? Over 20 years, right?
His nation must love him unconditionally...
No , i don t follow only RT , i also follow CNN , Fox , CNBC , Euro News , AlJazeera..you have to listen to every side not only the " main" side..it gets skewered. I dare guessing if it wasn"t for Putin ..Russia would ve been far worse than now. Look at my country , EU took everything ..and i mean everything that means natural resources from us to let us "travel " inside Europe. What a deal man..what a deal...We were once the biggest exporters of grain and fresh vegetables/fruits ,steel , tractors , even exported energy in Europe , now i eat frozen bread made in france and vegetables that have no taste grown in EU . We are now not allowed to grow our own pork, we have to import it from Spain , not allowed to have our own petrol fields ,not to say that Austria took our woods and Netherland took our ports , Italy took over our energy network and the list continues. This country has been chopped ,squeezed and robbed of everything , but hey , we re protected man God forbid Russia might think to invade us. We are starving , freezing and have nothing left..why the fuck would someone invade us now ? They never did before and they ve had the opportunity.
Anyway..it is what it is and we as a Romanian people deserve everything that s coming to us and happens to us..., We were once the ONLY EVER debt free country in the world..now we re in debt over our head . Shame on my fucking present and past governments for letting this happen. Yes , i could travel visa free anywhere in europe...but at what cost to my country ? One thing Ukrainians don t understand is that sometime "freedom and democracy in EU " comes with many many strings attached.
 
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So, in a few years time, Vlad the Mad is relaxing in his Dacha comfortable in knowledge he has rebuilt the USSR (and popped a few “buffer” states in the bag) and he picks up a book about Russian history and reads that the USA paid Russia $7.2 million for Alaska and thinks, “they screwed us, I want it back” and somehow, legally or otherwise, they get it then Canada becomes a “buffer” state and…
 
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vreihen

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20220226161408-9d948ffd.jpg



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   #28  

JMR

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@DV52 " @JMR: Of course it's a gross generalization, but I've always liked the ability of Romanians to distill a situation down to its bare essentials!! No fuss, no complications - just the facts!!! Respect!!:thumbs: "

Well, perhaps you have Romanian friends because i m sure i couldn't convice you with a simple phrase that i know how to strip a situation down to bare bone :).

But here's how the problem ( Russia _Ukraine ) plays even in real world situation ( my POV) :

Here you are this big guy ( aka Russia) known to be somewhat beligerant, dangerous, say he's known to be a street fighter but think with his head before actions. You're sitting at a bar, drinking your beer...talking to other big guys just as prepared as you ( aka US and EU ). So you guys are talking smack , sometimes laugh together sometimes get mad at each other but it's still under control ,you have some issues with each other but it's talkable/negociable.. Now there is little guy ( aka Ukraine ) sitting there in a corner , trying to get some attention from the all big guys( aka US Russia EU ). Now he's talking smack and he's been a bit trained by the other guys ( US and EU) to talk some shit around. So, you're sitting there at your table, the other guys are sitting at their tables and this guy ( Russia ) has been keen to hold the other guys ( US and EU ) bound to their promise that they will respect his space around his table . So , these other guys have not been truthful to the promise and gather few other smaller guys around the space ( Romania, Poland, Bulgaria , also know as NATO members ,etc etc) and they kinda start suffocating this guy ( Russia). And they have gotten as close as this guy ( Russia ) can stand. So , knowing that his let's say uncle ( Gorbachev) has been promised that no one will get close to his family table ( so to speak), this guy starts sweating bullets as the room seems to be getting smaller and smaller and more and more people getting closer to his table and his space with guns, knives and what have you . So, for the fuck/fun of it , these other guys which trully don't want to engage this belligerant but somewhat assertive guy ( they saw this guy boxing with another dude named Georgia , which was K.O ed really quick) they start pushing this little guy ( Ukraine ) closer and closer and ask this guy to talk shit even that the little guys ancestors are somewhat part of this beligerant's guy family ( times long gone , but still in memory ) . So now, knowing they won't be able to back him up, they snicker at the thought , and all of a sudden promise the little guy ( Ukraine ) that he could sit at the table with them, really close to the lonely guy , which hates that move so much it's been trying to caution everybody in the room ( been doing so for years) to let him have his space and table . But no, these guys( US and EU ) want to have their fun, see how much this other guy can take, so they are inching him ( Ukraine ) closer and closer to the belligerant guy which now is kinda sweating and starts to feel uncomfortable with the situation . So , after enduring for so long the laughs and prods and the tension created by the other guys , now beligerant guy ( Russia ) says "fuck it all to hell 'and starts punching and bloodies the nose of this newcomer to the big boys table knowing full well that the other guys we're not going to support the little guy . And now, all these big , pushy, threatening guys ( US, EU , The world ) are barking : hey, what the fuck man, why did you do that ?? It's not cool, bla bla bla.

Guys, let's not forget history . Let's study it (information is readily available if you have few minutes) let's think it, let's be cool and make judgements sitting down but be fair , let's not get dissinformed and before throwing yourself in protests in the streets for a cuase that you have not created and stand for ..actually judge for yourself how this situation become to be. I am sure you'll not look at the situation with the same eyes. We are all feel bad about people being hurt, killed ,robbed , tortured and hurled from their lands and homes. History is full of such events. This is what we are , what we propagate as a species . It's just that it who controls the media shows you whatever they want and narrate the events to make the light shine proudly on them .
 
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JMR

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@JMR: Of course it's a gross generalization, but I've always liked the ability of Romanians to distill a situation down to its bare essentials!! No fuss, no compl
:thanks:
 
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DV52

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@JMR: hmm......... not sure that I entirely agree with your bar-scene analogy of the Russia/Ukraine situation, but I do agree that perhaps the only value in understanding history is to avoid its repetition.

...and, whilst I have absolutely no sympathy for Putin's decision - I'm certain that the prospect of Ukraine's possible (likely?) membership to NATO was indeed a pivotal consideration in the timing of Russia's assault.

There can be absolutely no doubt that if Ukraine was a NATO member, Europe's, America's and the world's response regarding a military presence in Ukraine would be very different. So yes - Putin was squeezed in his ambitions regarding the Ukraine by time

Isn't it bizarre how the simple matter of membership to a club can be so important??

Don

PS: Propaganda has always been a crucial part of any war, regardless of the regime in the aggressor country. We keep thinking that Putin's rule in Russia is absolute - but in truth, he still depends on the Russian peoples for his position!

I'm not sure how much the Russian peoples share Putin's nostalgia for the old Soviet ideals - especially since Russians have enjoyed at least some democratic benefits.

Putin clearly want's a repeat of Crimea; a swift and decisive win. But, it appears from the news from these early days, that Ukrainians aren't going to go quietly into Russia's arms

My suspicion is that Putin can't afford to have this battle persist too long (from Russia's internal political perspective)

I'm not sure how western media reports are being received in Russia - but even Putin has his rivals back at home and these reports from the rest of the world continue to be received in Russia (at least for the present).

After Ukraine falls (as surely it must) - it will be interesting to watch how Putin manages the matter of the western media. Because the potentially corrosive effects from the constant criticism of his actions can be as effective as any clandestine gorilla-war that will be instigated by Ukraine's freedom fighters
 
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JMR

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There can be absolutely no doubt that if Ukraine was a NATO member, Europe's, America's and the world's response regarding a military presence in Ukraine would be very different. So yes - Putin was squeezed in his ambitions regarding the Ukraine by time
I think Putin is smarter than messing with any NATO backed country , never did so far , i think he knows that he'll be crushed . Guy is not as stupid as people think ...time will tell. Every leader makes mistakes huh ?
 
   #32  

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Putin clearly want's a repeat of Crimea; a swift and decisive win. But, it appears from the news from these early days, that Ukrainians aren't going to go quietly into Russia's arms
Crimea was easy -- the majority of the people there were of Russian descent/ethnicity and are content to be part of Russia rather than Ukraine. The same is true (but to a lesser extent) in the extreme eastern provinces that Russia recognized as independent recently. But the further west you go in Ukraine, the less that's the case.

After Ukraine falls (as surely it must)
"Surely"? Did Afghanistan "fall" to the Soviets? Or to the USA for that matter? Much depends on the resolve of the people.

Yes, the Russian military can likely defeat the Ukrainian military, just like the US military defeated the Iraqi military. The question is what happens thereafter?

Incidentally, Putin did quite clearly state that he does not intend to occupy Ukraine. I suppose he knows that attempting this, in the regions where Russians are no well-liked would not be feasible in the long run.

-Uwe-
 
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"Surely"? Did Afghanistan "fall" to the Soviets? Or to the USA for that matter? Much depends on the resolve of the people.

hmm....... you certainly are a man of many surprises (which is a good thing)!!!

I say this with the greatest respect for your view, but if anyone expects in the Ukraine invasion, anything remotely resembling the Afghanistan dynamic (either as to Putin's objective in committing troops, or as to how the military conduct the war) - they are mistaken (IMHO, of course).

Afghanistan is definitely NOT Ukraine and there is little that can be learned from how Putin dealt with that central Asian country

As for "the resolve of the people" - I've absolutely no doubt that Ukrainians are patriotic and brave folk. And I fully anticipate that they will fight valiantly against the invaders. However, there is nothing like an exercise whose primary aim is to kill to focus attention on the difference between optimism and reality!! I mean no offense in saying this and it is true that attitude can be a great motivator for armed troops - BUT, the outcome in Ukraine was determined well before the first shot was fired (IMHO, of course)

Yes, the Russian military can likely defeat the Ukrainian military, just like the US military defeated the Iraqi military. The question is what happens thereafter?

Excellent question - let's both watch and see??


Incidentally, Putin did quite clearly state that he does not intend to occupy Ukraine. I suppose he knows that attempting this, in the regions where Russians are no well-liked would not be feasible in the long run.
"The first casualty, when war comes.........."!!

You clearly have a better understanding of Putin - I don't know what Putin means by "do not intend to occupy Ukraine".

However, what I am certain-of is that Putin has not committed to this extraordinary exercise - only to then allow Ukraine to have any semblence of self rule. After Ukraine's (inevitable) defeat, I've little doubt that the new Russian citizens will feel the heel of Putin's boot - regardless of how the term "occupy" is defined!!
 
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DV52

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I think Putin is smarter than messing with any NATO backed country , never did so far , i think he knows that he'll be crushed . Guy is not as stupid as people think ...time will tell. Every leader makes mistakes huh ?
@JMR: very true; Putin ain't no fool - and if he is, he's a very dangerous fool!!

Nevertheless, in deciding how to make Russia look like it was when Putin was a KGB foreign intelligence officer, there was a diminishing window of opportunity (fast closing). The longer he waited, the greater was the risk that Ukraine would have membership to NATO.

NATO's published requirements for membership include:
  • a functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
  • the fair treatment of minority populations;
  • a commitment to the peaceful resolution of conflicts; the ability and willingness to make a military contribution to NATO operations;
  • and a commitment to democratic civil-military relations and institutional structures.”
Now, it's anyone's guess how well NATO believes that Ukraine satisfies these criteria. My understanding is that NATO had concerns about the degree of corruption in the Ukraine and there must be a worry about the simmering tensions with Russia (which NATO necessarily accepts with membership)

Nevertheless, way back in 2008 (at the Bucharest Summit), NATO welcomed Ukraine’s bid for membership (see HERE).

The irony is that with the new-found empathy for Ukraine resulting from Putin's actions - and if the impossible happens and Ukraine manages to win this war - and if Ukraine reapplies for NATO membership - would the request be better received ??? :confused:

Bottom line = maybe Putin isn't as clever as you believe; he has painted himself into a corner - Putin can't afford the Ukraine war to be, or to appear to be anything but complete victory

Don
 
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One thing that i cannot make sense off it is the outcome /end of this situation .Surely Putin has had a long time to plan this " invasion " and calculate the risks : sanctions , SWIFT expulsion , world being against his actions , media being against him etc etc . One thing that he must"ve been aware and sure of was that no other country will wage war him other than of course Ukraine. The other countries will supply money , arms and perhaps even guerilla forces under the guise of Ukrainian soldiers perhaps. There could be what i am afraid of "false flag " operations which could draw somewhat NATO backed countries into a full war ( say , some false flag op which will send a missile towards Romania , Poland or any Nato backed country etc etc ). That is my most absolute nightmare. There could be only few ends for the outcome of this play in my view and none of them will settle the world to be better. Either Russia withdraws in defeat ( hard pill to swallow by Putin ) , either Zelensky will call for arms down( harder pill to be swallowed by Ukraine ) either the world will find itself in a 3 rd WW. I ve been trying to run all plays through my head and none absolutely are with a rainbow at the end of it. Maybe cooler heads will prevail and this will end with no one declaring a victory and to save face they will sit down and somehow agree to disagree about Ukraine being part of NATO or being a buffer state and neutral with benefits from EU and Russia ( which would ve saved so many fucking lives to begin with and would ve made Ukraine a more prosperous country perhaps ). Time will tell..and hopefuly the ambitions of one country or NATO won t fuck us all into extinction.
 
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JMR

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Nevertheless, way back in 2008
That was the mistake no one had the ability ( or perhaps did it intentionally ) that started this clusterfuck of a situation.
They should've study George Kennan first. He said this way back about NATO expansion :
" expansion of NATO into Central Europe “the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era.” Kennan, the architect of America’s post-World War II strategy of containment of the Soviet Union, believed, as did most other Russia experts in the United States, that expanding NATO would damage beyond repair U.S. efforts to transform Russia from enemy to partner"
It seems to me that NATO is beyond Central Europe , past Eastern Europe and it seems that they want to also draw Moscow into being part of it :)
 
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So, in a few years time, Vlad the Mad is relaxing in his Dacha comfortable in knowledge he has rebuilt the USSR (and popped a few “buffer” states in the bag) and he picks up a book about Russian history and reads that the USA paid Russia $7.2 million for Alaska and thinks, “they screwed us, I want it back” and somehow, legally or otherwise, they get it then Canada becomes a “buffer” state and…
he might as well , he's a nut ain't he ?:) Imagine Alaska stll being Russian land now huh ? The world would've been sooooo different i think !
 
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Maybe cooler heads will prevail and this will end with no one declaring a victory ....................
@JMR: Please don't take offense (because none is intended) - but you very well know the answer to your own question!!

I'm far away on a distant island looking at the unfolding events as a concerned spectator and whilst I also wish for cooler heads to prevail - there ain't a snowball's chance in hell that "this will end with no one declaring victory".

Victory will be declared - first by Russia and in the fullness of time, by the western allies (for whatever countermeasures they employ). Of course, both declarations will be nonsense because there are no winners in a war.

For the moment, the question in my mind is how Putin will manage his current dissapointment; four days into the battle and Russia hasn't captured a single city!! That failure can't be good and it doesn't bode well for Ukrainian fighters given the war-fare options Putin has at his disposal for escalation.

Tick-tock, the clock for the decisive victory that Putin needs is counting down!!

You are correct - face does need to saved and Putin has the most to lose. As I have already said, Putin is a dangerous fool at worst - but as a cornered man, he will be positively pathological!!

Don
 
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So, in a few years time, Vlad the Mad is relaxing in his Dacha comfortable in knowledge he has rebuilt the USSR (and popped a few “buffer” states in the bag) and he picks up a book about Russian history and reads that the USA paid Russia $7.2 million for Alaska and thinks, “they screwed us, I want it back” and somehow, legally or otherwise, they get it then Canada becomes a “buffer” state and…
@Crasher: hell, for $7.2 million (Yankee dollars, I assume - none of those now worthless rubles) he can have Australia!! With the exchange rate for our Pacific-peso, it's a much better deal - for every one!! :thumbs:
 
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@Crasher: your prediction seems to be coming true. Putin has (allegedly) hid his ass somewhere in the Ural Mountains. In the meantime morale of his troops is getting worse.
I find this news quite positive... however, he most likely packed his nuclear briefcase and brought it to his Dacha... and - given the fact that he's mental - I am not feeling any better yet.
 
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