Ukraine

   #221  

JMR

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I am watching how everyday the leaders of free world EU and US are beating harder and harder the drums of war and are inching us daily towards ww3.:popcorn:
 
   #222  

Bruce

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Just the West? Putin and the Russians have nothing to do with escalating this "conflict"? Huh...

While Putin is on the attack, who can de-escalate? Who will come to a table and talk?

@JMR I am not unsympathetic to your position but lets call a spade a spade... Putin did not have to act. He chose to act. The West did not have to act. They chose to act. The Ukrainians are caught in the middle and they too carry some responsibility for what they were doing to the people of the 3 provinces who wanted to secede and be ruled by Russia. There is plenty of blame to pass around.

De-escalation begins with one side or the other backing down - offering the proverbial olive branch. The West will not now stop until Putin stops attacking another sovereign nation. (Let's not get into the West attacking sovereign nations like Iraq for no good reason.) Putin will not stop until he gains what he wanted to gain or runs out of the material means to keep going. We're in for a long haul and yes, it may lead to WW3.
 
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   #223  

JMR

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@Bruce , i have no position in this , i d say the hell with both of them . Politics are dirty , interests are dirty..so on . What i am saying is that this regional ( and it is regional ) conflict between them ..and it hould stay there without 3 rd parties getting involved. . No need to keep one side or another dear and close to the chest. I have no affinity for neither side. Putin is a nut yes and the other is just a puppet barking at orders , no hero for me .Yet the funniest thing is that Russia still supplies Europe with gas through Ukrainian pipes and they are payingn the Ulrainians as before . We re killing each other but business as usual when it comes to money huh ? What kind of shit this is i dont get it.
I need to ban myself again from the thread...
 
   #224  

vreihen

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"Russian landing ship Orsk is now to meet Sponge Bob in the Berdyansk harbor," tweeted Ukrainian war journalist Illia Ponomarenko.

From what I can gather, it looks like three Russian landing ships were attacked at a pier in a Ukraine port by fast harbor pilot-like speedboats. The Orsk was burning badly, and the other two made a break for the open sea with visible damage.....



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   #225  

DV52

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I am not unsympathetic to your position but lets call a spade a spade... Putin did not have to act. He chose to act. The West did not have to act. They chose to act. The Ukrainians are caught in the middle and they too carry some responsibility for what they were doing to the people of the 3 provinces who wanted to secede and be ruled by Russia. There is plenty of blame to pass around.
Bruce: I agree that blame is widespread and very few countries on either side of the newly evolving (non communist) Iron Curtain do-not have blood on their hands.

However, in the brutality of war (oops- I mean a "special military operation", of course), a spade is never called a spade! In war, a spade is called a "f#cking shovel"!

And once a war has started, apportioning blame for the cause of the conflict is only useful in the historic context of post-war analysis. Or said another way, it doesn't matter now who did what to whom and who is telling-porkies. Nor does it matter now what the real truth is in Ukraine, or what the real truth was before war started (as if "truth" is an absolute, which it is not - especially in a war). Once a war has started - it's like making a decision in economics; it becomes a "sunk-cost"- and it's pointless re-visiting the decision!!

Once a war has started, history has taught us that the normal process of extracting peace is defeat!! IMO, the only way to avoid this inevitable outcome is for the leaders on both sides of the conflict to gain an advantage by negotiating another outcome to war.

Again, now that the war has started in Ukraine, Zelenskyy's wants for an alternative to the natural outcome of war is probably not as important as the wants of the NATO alliance (read America) - and it's anyone's guess what Putin now wants.

We live in interesting times!!

Don
 
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   #226  

mattylondon

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The Ukrainians are caught in the middle and they too carry some responsibility for what they were doing to the people of the 3 provinces who wanted to secede and be ruled by Russia.

Hi Bruce. The end part of the sentence is very post-fact all stemming from the Kremlin script book. Maybe you remember the 'little green men' that invaded Ukraine in 2014 and Putler turning up the heat gradually on the situation. By initially denying that there was any Russian involvements in eastern Ukraine, they seeded the narrative of 'separatism' that is still the terminology used today. It is wholly false. These are, as they have been all along, parts of Ukraine occupied by Russia since 2014. Would you like me to remind you of the legitimacy of the referendums and elections that followed? Fact of the matter is there never was a separatist movement of '3 provinces'. It's all been invented in the Kremlin, curated by Vladislav Surkov. Russia has been in illegal occupation since 2014.
 
   #227  

JMR

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@Bruce , it seems that you have the mic and the scene courtesy of our colleague @mattylondon
I always wondered seeing how Israel stood idle since Zelensky is jewish. As known , Babi Yar memorial has been "destroyed" by russians or so was the media narrative and Zelensky made a whole show about being destroyed by the russians. But so far Israel made no "fiery" comments towards the russians. So , as i was just curious why Israel made no big stink about it...i've got to some reading. Turns out that ...ahem...ukrainians had a major hand in this. Interesting position for Israel regarding the "special op" of Putin ..
 
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   #228  

Bruce

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As in all wars, finding truth is difficult until after the war has ended and time has passed. On this point, I agree completely with Don (@DV52 ).

@mattylondon you can take exception to what I have written. The games afoot are being played on all sides. Truth is hard to come by. Seems you may have a corner on it. My point was, all parties have to share in whatever is happening - none have clean skirts as we 'Muricans say.

As Don wrote:
for the leaders on both sides of the conflict to gain an advantage by negotiating another outcome to war.
That has to be our best hope - that the leaders of all sides will sit down and negotiate another outcome.

@JMR I too have found the Israeli position to be interesting in that they have not supported the Ukrainian's defense of their country. As the article points out, Israel often remains neutral on such conflicts owing to their continued need to survive in their own land where they are surrounded by hostile nations. Further, they desire to keep their doors open to the flow of Jews from countries that still do not want Jews living in their borders - an option they wish to promote.

To close, I still consider these events to be a tragedy. I know the fear that the Eastern Europeans are feeling as I have talked with many. Living in fear is never pleasant. My prayer is that the parties would come to the table and find a solution. I will pray for such a solution each and every day. In the meantime, I will do what little I can do to help those displaced by this and the other wars still raging around this world. Those loosing their homes likely had little say in what has happened to them. They need help from others and I hope the little I can do will be of help to them. I will pray for their protection and their safety. I know full well they are in harms way, fearing their own and their family's demise. I will also lift prayer that this conflict does not escalate into WW3.

Some here will mock me for my faith in a God who permits such to happen. Mock away. God never promised a rose garden and God never promised there would not be war. God promised to be there always through the trials of life. I will trust that He will work His will for His good purpose.
 
   #229  

JMR

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excerpts :

The first official reaction by the Israeli government was heard on Thursday from Foreign Minister Yair Lapid. He condemned Russia’s invasion and deemed it “a serious violation of international order.” He then added what Israel is willing to do—“Israel stands ready to provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine.


Shortly after this address, Moscow jabbed back at Israel. Russia’s representative to the United Nations, Dmitry Polyanskiy, denounced Israel’s “occupation” of the Golan Heights, expressing Moscow’s “concern over Tel Aviv’s announced plans for expanding settlement activity in the occupied Golan Heights, which contradicts the provisions of the 1949 Geneva Convention.”


This may explain the carefully chosen words of Prime Minister Naftali Bennett and Minister of Finance Avigdor Liberman later in the day.

In contrast to Lapid, Bennett abstained from denouncing or even mentioning Russia in a speech he delivered at an IDF officers training course commencement ceremony. Instead, he simply emphasized that Israel is willing to provide humanitarian aid to the people of Ukraine. Liberman followed this stance and added that “the smartest thing to do is keep a low profile.”



This is smart DIPLOMACY !!!
 
   #231  

vreihen

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Let's Go Brandon is caught between a rock and a hard place, because his son was on the payroll of a Ukrainian company. I suspect that he's letting NATO take the lead on this, as anything that he did on his own would certainly have the elephant party pointing at it during the upcoming midterm elections.....
 
   #232  

JMR

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Let's Go Brandon is caught between a rock and a hard place, because his son was on the payroll of a Ukrainian company. I suspect that he's letting NATO take the lead on this, as anything that he did on his own would certainly have the elephant party pointing at it during the upcoming midterm elections.....
it's been news for nearly a week now :) But that was " russian fake news" . Seems that it was true news with the help of NYTimes.
 
   #233  

Uwe

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Let's Go Brandon is caught between a rock and a hard place, because his son was on the payroll of a Ukrainian company.
Oh, it gets better:

But I'm sure this is just more Russian Disinformation™ as well, right?

-Uwe-
 
   #234  

RGH0

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Yes I also could write a headline also like

"PLASTIC IN VCDS SYSTEM CARCINOGENIC"

It would be somewhat true but totally irrelevant.
 
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   #235  

jyoung8607

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Oh, it gets better:

But I'm sure this is just more Russian Disinformation™ as well, right?
What does this mean?

Please be specific.
 
   #236  

vreihen

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224e61c566430bba4c07031efea006ca.gif



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   #237  

DV52

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@jyoung8607 : Desperately need your help. I've been trying to ignore it all morning but it's doing my head in - so I have to ask!!

Does "FoRT" mean what I think that it means - and is it an exclusive fan club? :confused:

Don
 
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