Ukraine

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Mike R

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Well, that escalated quickly.

via Telegraph

Vladimir Putin has appeared to threaten nuclear strikes if any country tries to attack Russia in retaliation. In a chilling warning, he said the “consequences” of any attempt to strike back would provoke a response “never seen in history”
 
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mattylondon

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Слава Україні!
 
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JMR

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i don't know ..the history goes very far back between Ukraine and Russian Federation, they've had some land issues before. However, how far up Russia NATO think it could expand into Eurasia ? It seems that Putin's only problem it's the never ceasing expansion towards Russia s borders...and i think that pisses him off. ( personal opinion , after reading here and there the news). Nevertheless, Europe will see substantial price increases in natural gas, energy and fossil fuels . Lucky us we didn't have a chilling freezing winter like usual , cause if that would've been the case, i think Europe's stance would've been a lot smoother and more diplomatic towards Putin. The truth is, he's got us ( Europe) by the balls and it seems to me that all the EU liders are doing right now are just hard barking at the passing bear wanting to show which one barks harder. However,not all EU liders seem to bark to the same tune. For example my country only barks because you know who got their balls into a vice and truth to be told there is no love lost between Romania and Ukraine due to the fact that Romania won in International court more than 90% of Snake's Island ( Insula Serpilor ) against Ukraine.
According to a recent pool , Romanian people ( as Ukraine neighbours) don't really give 2 cents for Russia/Ukraine internal matters
 
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Bruce

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According to a recent pool , Romanian people ( as Ukraine neighbours) don't really give 2 cents for Russia/Ukraine internal matters
I believe that Putin counts on this attitude. He is pretty certain there will be no one standing with the Ukrainians. He knows his war chest is pretty flush and his country will not be affected by the "sanctions". He knows that NATO countries will not give machines of war to the Ukrainians. He knows that all they give are words.

The issue as I see it is will it end with the Ukraine or are we looking at a similar run-up that occurred prior to WW2? In that case, it was Germany who had issues with the Poles. The rest of the West said - we'll be there for you. And then it was over in days.. The Germans occupied Poland. The head of state saw that there was no will to fight him so he went on taking all that he wanted. Sound familiar? What was the fate of the Romanian people? The German/Polish thing had nothing to do with them.. Until it did.

Have you been listening to Putin's words? He has plans. He is still focused on the USSR losses in 1999. He wants all of it back. Belarus is a done deal. His puppet is at the helm. How many others will fall to him?

And then we have to question, what about others in the world who have designs on lands they want? Will China take this conflict and see it as opportunity to take Taiwan? What can the West do about that?

Will the Iranians see that the world is focused on Putin and his moves and use the distraction to make their moves in the Middle East - predominantly against Israel? Do we sit by and watch that happen also?

I suggest there is way more happening than a land fight between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
 
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JMR

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:) trust me, we don't like russians either. It's just that we don't really like to stick our noses in some other countries affairs. Take Hungary for example : they do not want much to anger their close neighbour Russia as they shouldn't. Bulgarians..also not really in the mood of messing with Russia. Romanians , fought along Germany and then fought along allies. The history is far too murky to draw conclusions right now about who and who is not right.I could really see Putin mad for the fall of USSR , that Honestly at the end of both wars , the world stood a second and tried to remember what and why the wars happened. The only thing different now is that the conflict is between the " powers' USA and Russia which cannot be an outright war but through proxies ( USA which commands NATO stirs Ukraine against Russia ). If they will trully go to war, then our days are numbered as MAD protocol is in place and i cannot think for one second nutty Biden or even nuttier Putin will hesitate to show that they both have " balls".
Truth is i really don't like what's happening right now around my country's border and i am trully pissed that for the last 2 months my gas bill for home heating has nearly doubled :( and i expect it to quadruple or worse in the coming months.
 
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JMR

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In that case, it was Germany who had issues with the Poles
i think that the Deutsches Reich just wanted to expand and the Polish military was the weakest in Europe at the time..similar to today's Russia s actions ..but will see what comes next, i think we globally are at a crossroad
 
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RGH0

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The dictators of the world ( Russia, North Korea, China, Iran are current examples) have learnt through history ( from countries like Nazi Germany and imperial Japan) that they can salami slice the democratic western countries if they do it in fine steps and calibrate carefully the slices taken while all the time professing their desire to negotiate.

i.e. They have learnt to use democratic morality against itself

What they don't learn from history is that it also shows that ultimately they cannot resist and take one slice to far and then they face the full economic and military retaliation of the democratic countries of the world which so far in the last 100 years has successfully stopped the salami slicing in its tracks even if not at the point it should have been stopped.

The only good thing out of the current invasion is that it has clearly shown that the previous US president was and still is, in Putins pocket
 
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DV52

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I suggest there is way more happening than a land fight between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
@Bruce: I suspect you are correct - especially about more happening than the great unwashed (i.e. me, and perhaps you included) understand

The real problem is that by definition, an autocratic ruler like Putin is accountable to no one but himself and history has shown that the ambitions of a despot always transcend any consideration of the carnage and the citizens that must die to further his ends!!

The increase in rhetoric by Russia towards the use of nuclear weapons was to be expected - at this stage, Putin's threats have been accompanied by the adjectives "short-range" (missiles), but as we will both agree, escalation in stress situations is real easy - and with the current bunch of decision makers on both sides, I'm not at all convinced that MAD will be a sufficient deterrent for global participation.

Since I'm an agnostic and since you are more likely to succeed, I will leave it for your prayers to be heard that wiser-heads prevail - before the big-red-button is pushed!!

The other interesting matter to watch in this conflict is the question of so-called "targeted sanctions" - which is a thing that I believe to be an oxymoron. Targeted sanctions appear to be the 21st Century's alternative to armed participation in conflicts. But in truth, they are inevitably anything but "targeted" because they invariably leak-like-a-sieve.

A prime example of this is a few posts-up in which @JMR complains about his heating bills. I doubt that statements from your President that the sanctions are targeted will be solace to the reality of the side-effects of these instruments.

And likewise, I suggest that anyone else is living in fantasy land if they believe that they won't be affected by the existing and yet to be announced new targeted sanctions. It's simply not possible in today's global economy to insulate the rest of the world from sanctions of the size anticipated (irrespective of the marketing label "targeted").

Even if the rest of the world avoids open conflict in this war, we ALL will be paying for the targeted sanctions -it's only a question of how much!

Don
 
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   #10  

JMR

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It's just that the cost of living has increased by nearly 40-45% since the drums of war have been beating for the past 8-10 months. It's affecting everything: food costs, energy, fuel , transportation EVERYTHING and we feel it mostly in Europe , i don't know about other continents ..and i think that there is worse to come. The cooler heads that should've prevented this war seems to me that are hotheads...always stirring and inciting conflicts and pushing each other buttons to see which one cries first. It will affect ALL of us not just little me or little you ! Now i read the news and Ukrainian president says he's ready for " discussing neutrality " with Russia. Seems that 2 days of hard pushing from Russia has been an eye opener in his view. He says that he realized that he's standing alone and NATO backed countries are just watching and barking. And what are they suppose to do ? Nothing other than "sanctions". Ukraine is not and i don't think will ever be part of NATO . Zelensky should have been smarter and follow a diplomatic path with Putin and try to resolve his country's issues's ( Donbas and Lugansk ) and he should've known that EU can't help him if hard comes to push. But no, this idiot thought that the whole world will start a war with Russia to protect him.There could be more integration within EU of it ( trade, financial help , whatever ) but never NATO unless Russia just 'poof" disappears form the world map. Ukraine used to be one of the 'former" greater part of ex USSR by 1/3 of it . They are Russians save a generation removed from the fall time of the Red Empire. As i've said, the world is a crossroad with many paths right now and each one seemes worse than the other. How is this conflict gonna end? Ukraine saying that's it we give up ? What from there ? Damage has been done and there is no graceful exit from this one any way you look at it. :(
 
   #11  

PetrolDave

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I believe that Putin counts on this attitude. He is pretty certain there will be no one standing with the Ukrainians. He knows his war chest is pretty flush and his country will not be affected by the "sanctions".
... and even if Russia is affected by sanctions it won't affect him or the oligarchs et al that support him as history shows that in any dictatorship it is only the 'common man' who gets negative consequences as 'the powers that be' have the resources and contacts to make sure they feel no negative consequences. Hence why Putin has said publicly that sanctions do not concern him.

It is being forecast in the UK that by the end of 2022 the typical energy bill (electricity and heating) for a family home will be in excess of £3000 ($4000) which is over 50% higher than at the end of 2021.
 
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RGH0

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"2 days of Hard pushing" is that tanks, shells and rockets and deaths ... nice way to describe it.

Also if you now on the front line and Putins next target perhaps
 
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Uwe

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absolute nutter
How would a US President have reacted, if during the cold war, Mexico had amended its constitution with what amounted to a declaration that it intended to join Comecon and the Warsaw Pact? Because that is what Ukraine effectively did in 2019:

Russia has has suffered major military invasions by the West in each of the prior two centuries; by France in the 1800s, and by Germany in the 1900s. Both invasions were eventually repelled, but at huge cost of Russian lives and treasure, and the effect on the Russian national psyche should not be underestimated.

When the Soviet Union collapsed and was considering withdrawing its forces from eastern Europe, the West promised Russia that it would not expand eastward.

Now, 11 countries of eastward expansion later, with NATO already on Russia's northern border (the Baltics), Russia is supposed to tolerate it on her southern border too, and essentially be surrounded?

Why is anyone surprised that Russia has finally said, "ENOUGH!"?

This is from 2015. It is long, but it was prescient:


-Uwe-
 
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Uwe

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They have learnt to use democratic morality against itself
"Democratic Morality"?

How many sovereign countries have we, the "democratic" USA and our allies bombed and invaded in order to effect "regime change" when that country's government was not to our liking over the last ~30 years? I could start listing them, but I'm not sure I'd get them all, because it's rather lengthy list.

The notion that we have the moral high ground when it comes to geopolitical affairs is farcically absurd.

-Uwe-
 
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Mike R

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I think it's very funny to suggest Trump is in Putin's pocket, when Biden was the one who for inexplicable reasons lifted Trump's sanctions blocking the Nordstream 2 pipeline for Russia. Quite quickly in fact. Those same sanctions that Biden was still fighting for to not reimpose a mere few weeks ago.

And the new sanctions Biden has taken in light of this invasion into Ukraine have been quite easy-going frankly.
 
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Uwe

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Uwe

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The only good thing out of the current invasion is that it has clearly shown that the previous US president was and still is, in Putins pocket
One might interpret things differently:

RussianInvasionCycle.jpg

-Uwe-
 
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vreihen

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I think that I'm going to apply for a trademark on "Z" ... as the new mark of the beast..... :facepalm:
 
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Bruce

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Report from Al Jazeera: China sent fighter planes into Taiwan's airspace, testing their defense systems, an escalation of the difficulties China and Taiwan have been having.

Meanwhile, NATO has deployed the NATO Defense Force to East European NATO countries.

Will the world be able to pull back and solve things peacefully?
 
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Fred's Imports

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Thank-you Uwe. The picture is far bigger than any of us will ever know. Putin hates a one world government and this was his last chance to stop it.
The attack on Ukraine is more an attack against the west's liars, too bad innocent people have to die. If one remembers it was the Bush/Cheney traitor duo who led Ukraine into thinking they would be allowed into NATO, of course every crooked white house administration since except 45.

Read his speech.

 
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