A4 B7 3.2 FSI 2005 - Crank but no start - 16730/P0346 Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)

   #1  

tibcab

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Hello,

I have an issue with an A4 B7 3.2 FSI engine that cranks but does not start.
As for visible symptoms apart from the non starting condition, I hear a ticking noise when then engine cranks.

The car ran really rough before I replaced both upper chain tensioners. Before replacing the tensioners, the timing seemed OK although one of the tensioners was missing a plastic guide, which was also creating a rattle noise when releasing the gas pedal.
The engine would hardly start, I had to accelerate a bit to get it started and then it barely held idle.

After I replaced the tensioners, reconnected everything I had disconnected, checked the timing twice before putting the chain covers, I first attempted to start the engine without clearing the codes that were present before the repair and it did not start.
I then proceeded to clear all engine codes to see if new ones popped up and I tried starting again. No dice, the engine cranks and there is a quite loud ticking noise when it revs.
Here is when this code popped up : 16730/P0346

I also tried Output Tests on the engine module and everything went well except for one odd thing that I don't know if it relates to the issue : when doing the sequential test of the ECM Power Relay, I noticed the brake lights were flashing at the same pace as the relay clicked. Is this normal? I think I ran this test on other cars already but did not really look at the back of the car when doing it...

The battery is fully charged.

Now what I have done since the no start issue :

- removed spark plugs and rotated the engine by hand to ensure nothing was hitting. I was pretty sure of my timing work when putting back the camshaft adjusters but you never know, and I really don't like when engines make that kind of noise.
- checked timing, all timing special tools mount perfectly (camshafts + cranshaft pin) without using any force
- swapped G163 intake camshaft sensor (Bank 2) with G40 intake camshaft sensor (Bank 1) and tried starting, the failure code did not move to the other bank.

- swapped N208 intake camshaft actuator (Bank 2) with N205 intake camshaft actuator (Bank 1) and tried starting, that seemed to have added the 16725/P0341 code.

I am completely lost here, and have a couple of questions to ask the forum :

- can those codes prevent an engine start? I see from lots of searches on forums that people usually get then with running engines, it might point to chain/timing issues but does not necessarily seems related to no start conditions.
- is there anything else I can check for this no start condition?
- can the ticking noise come from a camshaft adjuster ? They might be empty of oil since they were removed and only reinstalled a couple of days later. Since the engine has not started yet, it has not built oil pressure I guess.
- why on earth would swapping the camshaft solenoids add a code and not just move it to the other bank (or not) ?
- I can hear no fuel pump noise when turning the ignition on, although it was noticeably running when I did the output tests. Is that normal? I haven't touched the fuel system though so if it is airtight, I guess the priming pump does not run at each start.

Below is a full autoscan if that helps...

Code:
Monday,13,September,2021,15:55:55:24005
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 21.3.0.0 (x64)
Data version: 20210226 DS325.0
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: WAUZZZ8E45XXXXXXX   License Plate: NO START
Mileage: 172160km-106975mi   Repair Order:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 8E (8E - Audi A4/S4/RS4 B6/B7 (2001 > 2008))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 0F 11 15 16 17 18 25 36 37 45 46 55 56 57 65
          67 69 75 76 77
 
VIN: WAUZZZ8E45XXXXXXX   Mileage: 172160km-106975miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine (AUK)       Labels:. 06E-910-559-BKH.clb
   Part No SW: 8E0 910 559 B    HW: 8E0 907 559
   Component: 3.2l V6 FSI         0020 
   Revision: --H16---    Serial number:               
   Coding: 010C0003180F0820
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 2C5CF49D8F56F2EB4F-8078

2 Faults Found:
16730 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
            P0346 - 006 - Implausible Signal
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00010001
                    Fault Priority: 4
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 0
                    Mileage: 0 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 192 /min
                    Mass Air / Rev.: 0.0 mg/str
                    Temperature: 21.0°C
                        Start
                    Bin. Bits: 00001000
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h

16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40)
            P0341 - 006 - Implausible Signal
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00010001
                    Fault Priority: 4
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 0
                    Mileage: 0 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 96 /min
                    Mass Air / Rev.: 0.0 mg/str
                    Temperature: 21.0°C
                        Start
                    Bin. Bits: 00001000
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h

Readiness: 0110 0101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 8E0-910-517.clb
   Part No SW: 8E0 910 517 C    HW: 8E0 614 517 BB
   Component: ESP8 quattro    H04 0180 
   Revision: 00000000    Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 0004379
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 27560BB196B0D1B3A2-8072

1 Fault Found:
01826 - Sensor for Steering Angle (G85); Supply Voltage Terminal 30
            000 - -
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100000
                    Fault Priority: 3
                    Fault Frequency: 2
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    Hex Value: 0x0000
                    Hex Value: 0x4222
                    Hex Value: 0x00FF
                    Hex Value: 0xFF96
                    Hex Value: 0x00FF


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC        Labels: 8E0-820-043.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 820 043 AJ
   Component:   A4 Klimaautomat   2731 
   Coding: 00000
   Shop #: WSC 00000 
   VCID: 69D24D89132427C374-50E6

1 Fault Found:
01206 - Signal for Duration of Ignition Off Time
            27-00 - Implausible Signal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect.        Labels: 8E0-907-279-8EC.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 907 279 L
   Component: int. Lastmodul  ECE 0304 
   Coding: 10121
   Shop #: WSC 06325 
   VCID: 3B7EC7C129386553D6-4A9C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 8E0-959-655-94.lbl
   Part No SW: 8E0 959 655 G    HW: 8E0 959 655 G
   Component:    Airbag 9.41  H10 3230 
   Revision: 91H10323    Serial number: 0036M002SE2Y 
   Coding: 0034622
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 3B7EC7C17A386553D6-806E

   Subsystem 1 - Serial number: 6332DRB401B90C0EU

   Subsystem 2 - Serial number: 6342DRB401BA4726P

   Subsystem 3 - Serial number: 6352ARB4004F5ECC1

   Subsystem 4 - Serial number: 6362ARB4004F51EBX

   Subsystem 5 - Serial number: 63729RB400504D39H

   Subsystem 6 - Serial number: 63829RB400503E04A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel        Labels: 8E0-953-549.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 953 549 Q
   Component: Lenksáulenmodul     0601 
   Coding: 04012
   Shop #: WSC 06325 
   VCID: 4182B5294BD40F838C-4ACE

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 8E0-920-9xx-8EC.lbl
   Part No SW: 8E0 920 900 S    HW: 8E0 920 900 S
   Component: KOMBI+WFS 4     H12 0040 
   Revision: 0040        Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 0023041
   Shop #: WSC 11111 111 11111
   VCID: 346CECFD5466AA2B17-5102

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer        Labels: 8E0-920-9xx-8EC.lbl
   Part No SW: 8E0 920 900 S    HW: 8E0 920 900 S
   Component: KOMBI+WFS 4     H12 0040 
   Revision: 0040        Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 0023041
   Shop #: WSC 11111 111 11111
   VCID: 346CECFD5466AA2B17-50E6

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels:. 8E0-959-433-MAX.clb
   Part No: 8E0 959 433 BR
   Component: Komfortgerát T23    3132 
   Coding: 07024
   Shop #: WSC 06325 
   VCID: 02007A250E52D49BD5-4AB4

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 8E1959801B
   Component: Tõrsteuer.FS BRM 0205 

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 8E1959802B
   Component: Tõrsteuer.BF BRM 0205 

   Subsystem 3 - Part No: 8E0959801A
   Component: Tõrsteuer.HL BRM 0205 

   Subsystem 4 - Part No: 8E0959802A
   Component: Tõrsteuer.HR BRM 0205 

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 55: Headlight Range        Labels: 4F0-910-357.lbl
   Part No SW: 4F0 910 357 C    HW: 4F0 907 357 C
   Component: AFS 1           H01 0020 
   Revision: 00000001    Serial number:               
   Coding: 0000019
   Shop #: WSC 40219 188 93149
   VCID: 264806B591BAC8BB99-8072

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 8E0 941 329 A
   Component: AFS-Modul links H05 0030

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 8E0 941 329 A
   Component: AFS-Modul rechtsH05 0030

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio        Labels: 8E0-035-1xx-56.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 035 186 D
   Component: concert II  GRO    0004 
   Coding: 01267
   Shop #: WSC 06325 
   VCID: 2854088DC8AEDECBAB-4AB4

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 76: Park Assist        Labels: 8E0-919-283-8EC.lbl
   Part No SW: 8E0 919 283 B    HW: 8E0 919 283 B
   Component: Parkhilfe 4-Kan H06 0020 
   Revision: 00H06000    Serial number: 00067802030504
   Coding: 0010114
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 2F66E391BD4089F36A-50E6

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 77: Telephone        Labels: 8P0-862-335.lbl
   Part No SW: 8P0 862 335 D    HW: 8P0 862 335 D
   Component: FSE_255x BT     H18 0050 
   Revision: 00000001    Serial number: 00000000184515
   Coding: 0001611
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 3776DBF14510413332-50E6

No fault code found.

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 06:43)--------------------------

Thanks for your support!
 
   #2  

Jef

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Please do a compression test and also provide the VIN so we can look up information specific to the vehicle.
 
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tibcab

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Hello Jeff,

Thanks a lot for the quick response.
I forgot to mention I did a compression test before replacing the tensioners. Given the rough idle of the engine and the ton of codes it had I was actually preparing myself for a couple of bent valves.
The compressions on the 6 cylinders were actually perfect : around 14 bar all around.

I PMed you the VIN if that's ok?

Thanks again
 
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tibcab

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Here are the pictures of my compression test before replacing the tensioners. all seemed fine...


Any ideas on my questions?

Thanks a lot
 
   #5  

Fred's Imports

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Perform one more compression test. Does the engine sound "normal" when cranking?
 
   #6  

tibcab

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Thanks for you answer, will try this an report back.
 
   #7  

Jef

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Vehicle Identification No. WAUZZZ8E45A499xxx
Model Audi A4 Av. qu. 3.2 A4
Date of production 24.02.2005
Year 2005
Sales type 8ED0P9
Engine Code AUK
Transmission Code GYY


AUK engine, compression testing specs are 11 to 14 BAR. One should expect typical values to be in the middle, around say 12.5 BAR. Assuming your compressor tester gauge is good... you've got some high numbers there. When you checked the timing, did you use the T40069 tool to lock the crank into place?
 
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tibcab

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Thanks for your feedback Jef, yes I used the T40069 tool to lock the crank into place and it slid right in, no need to wiggle the crankshaft. I also used tools T40070 for the camshafts. That's what worries me the most, I have close to no doubt in the timing job but it does not make any sense since I hear this nocking noise...

Regarding the readings from the compression tester gauge, I would not be too confident about absolute values, it's a 30€ test gauge from Amazon. Now that you mention that though I remember taking compressions with this tester on my A6 C6 with the very same engine and they were around 9 bar... Both cars have sensibly the same mileage. Not sure what to think about that now.

Anyway, I will try taking compressions again and report back.

Any comments on the fuel pump not making any sound when I turn on the ignition ?
 
   #9  

Jef

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Do you get fuel from the fuel tank into the engine bay?
 
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tibcab

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Do you get fuel from the fuel tank into the engine bay?

I do yes, just cracked open the line that goes onto the engine and fuel spit out.

I also re-did the compression test and got 15 bar all around. At this stage I suspect my tester to be quite inaccurate. I would tend to think though that since there are no major differences between the 6 cylinders, valves must be in good shape.
Any objections to this assumption are welcome ;-)

Another update to add is the fact that during my compression test, the clunking noise when cranking gradually went away, and completely disappeared by the 4th cylinder. At least that seems to confirm nothing is banging inside the engine. Am I correct if I assume that the cam adjusters have bled themselves?
I have done this timing job on two other 3.2 FSI engines so far and never had this issue but then again both those engines started instantly after the job so I guess oil pressure built way faster.

Any other thoughts?

What about the ECM power relay test that made the stop lights flash?

Thanks for you support
 
   #11  

tibcab

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Hello,

A question that springs to mind, on all failure code reports I have from this issue, the engine speed is always around 100 rpm. Is that a normal value for cranking?
I was under the impression that it should be twice that... but I am not sure.

Could the G28 sensor be incriminated as not giving the correct value? I suspect the starter is OK and battery was always fully charged when I tried starting.
 
   #12  

tibcab

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Hello,

Still chasing this problem on my A4 B7...

In the meantime, I stole the G28 from my A6 with the same engine code and put it on the A4 to rule it out, no change, still no start. (The sensors are identical, same part number)

I noticed the tank was nearly empty so went ahead and put a good 15 liters in, the fuel level gauge reads now over 1/4. Still no start.

I now have failure codes for all 4 camshaft position Sensors...

16730 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
P0346 - 006 - Implausible Signal
16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
P0341 - 006 - Implausible Signal
16775 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
P0391 - 006 - Implausible Signal
16750 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
P0366 - 006 - Implausible Signal

Which lead me to check timing for the 4th (!) time, it is spot on. Believe me I swear each time I need to undo the 12 screws per bank to remove the cylinder head covers 😁
I also tested all 4 sensors with a multimeter and they seem to work perfectly.
I also energized all 4 camshaft solenoids and they all seemed to move freely.

Suspected the battery too, so I tried with a huge perfectly fine 100Ah from my A6 still no luck

I am completely lost here, the only small thing I could still suspect is the fuel pump because I haven't heard it at all, not when opening the door, neither when putting the ignition on. But I also looked at measuring blocks in VCDS and it reads around 6 bar on the low pressure side so that does not seem to be it, does it?

Any other suggestions for stuff I could check?

So far compressions are ok, timing is ok, ignition should be ok or else I'd get codes (?)

Is there a document or service manual I should look for in which I could see what the conditions are for the ECU to allow injection?

Thanks a lot for you help!
 
   #13  

Jef

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If you feel timing is all good, unplug any and ALL cam sensors and then see if the car starts.
 
   #14  

tibcab

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Thanks @Jef , I tried this earlier today and it almost started, the engine "coughed" a little. I had never been able to make it even "cough" before unplugging the 4 cam sensors.
It did not start though and would only cough at the 2 or 3 first attempts. I tried to give a little gas but it did not change anything.

What worries me a bit is that I get no errors of unplugged sensors in the engine module when scanning with VCDS. I still get the implausible signal codes but no short to ground/plus or something that would point to them being disconnected.
Is that normal?
 
   #15  

tibcab

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Hello,

I continued my investigations but nothing changed so far...

- tried with another battery (running car with jump start wires), the starter seems to turn faster but it did not make the engine start
- tried another ignition switch, no change

I still suspect the ECU isn't allowing fuel to be injected and/or ignition to be commanded because of starting conditions not met.
Unfortunately I don't know what those conditions are.

any help would be greatly appreciated, I am really eager to drive this beautiful B7 Avant around but right now it is a real sleeping beauty!
 
   #16  

Jef

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When you did compression testing, all plugs out... did you smell gas?

If the ECM is the issue... the good news plugging up a correct ECM would allow the car to fire up, then shut right back down due to the Immobilizer. The bad news is we really can't help with the Immobilizer.
 
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   #17  

tibcab

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As far as I remember, I did not smell gas when doing the compression testing.
That means the injectors are not energized, correct? Is there a measuring block where I can check if they are? I could log this one when cranking the engine.

Indeed I considered purchasing another ECM to confirm that. Found one for a reasonable price but I have not found any way of adapting it to the car if it ends up being the issue. Not very keen on spending the 1500+ € on a new one for a MY05'...
Is failure of the ECM a frequent thing on those models?
 
   #18  

tibcab

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Alright, I found the issue...

If you feel timing is all good, unplug any and ALL cam sensors and then see if the car starts.

I felt it was good, and as mentioned I checked it 4 times using the timing tools that I have for this engine.
Turns out you should never trust non-factory tools (or at least I expect the factory ones to be perfect in this regard). I found out that what I used as TDC for timing, actually TDC on cylinder #2, was not correct.

The toolkit contains 2x cam bridges T40070 and 1x crankshaft locking pin T40069. In the end, my T40069 seems to be garbage because even when threaded all the way in, I can still rotate the crankshaft some degrees.

I watched this video where the guy says that you should not be able to move it at all (or a couple thousands of an inch), and re-checked mine to make sure of this. Obviously it was not the case.

When using the old-school method for finding the timing position for the crankshaft (cylinder #2 @TDC), I used a comparator and it showed me that the 4 camshafts were off by approx. 5 degrees.
I adjusted them according to the correct crankshaft position and voilà! The engine started instantly!

Thanks for your support in this process, that reminds me once again that when you think you have checked something a fair amount of times, you should anyway double-check and preferably using different means/techniques if possible.

Now I just consider myself lucky because I have used this toolkit on a bunch of other cars and never had any issues... turns out I was blindly timing them regardless of the crankshaft position :eek:
I suspect this knock-off T40069 to be too short.

In Europe I have not yet found a source for factory VW/Audi tooling, and I would really like to purchase the original ones for this job!

Now let's make a compression test and see if the bad timing has enabled meetings between valves & pistons...
 
   #19  

stefdds

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Congratulations from the USA on solving the problem! (great feeling isn't it!! ;).

In Europe I have not yet found a source for factory VW/Audi tooling


This vendor should be able to get you started ; this is a USA version, but I'm sure that utilizing the "contact" email will give you more contacts for the European market.

 
   #20  

Crasher

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In the UK you can but the tools from the company that deals with the mainstream VAG parts called TPS. If you sign up to erWin that may guide you
 
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