2016 Golf R no start, multi malfunctions-no communication

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Jef

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Also a sanity check of the J519 to kind of verify it knows the ignition switch is requesting Term 15 to be activated... in Central Electronics, go into Advance Measuring Values and search for "terminal 15" and check all the boxes. Here are the results from my 2018 Rrrrrr 5 minutes ago:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ignition on:
IDE02588-IDE00020 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 status active
IDE02588-IDE00773 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 status via CAN active
IDE02588-MAS12787 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 ignition switch signal 1 active
IDE02588-MAS12788 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 ignition switch signal 2 active
IDE80251-MAS06648 Head area heater-Continuation at terminal 15 on not coded/not installed
ENG116907-IDE00020 Zusaetzliche Umgebungsdaten-Terminal 15 status On

Ignition off:
IDE02588-IDE00020 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 status not active
IDE02588-IDE00773 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 status via CAN not active
IDE02588-MAS12787 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 ignition switch signal 1 not active
IDE02588-MAS12788 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 ignition switch signal 2 not active
IDE80251-MAS06648 Head area heater-Continuation at terminal 15 on not coded/not installed
ENG116907-IDE00020 Zusaetzliche Umgebungsdaten-Terminal 15 status OFF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pretty cut and dry, does your J519 know what is up?
 
   #22  

Zeljo

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To be clear and because your response is a tad "economic" (no offense intended) -With ignition-ON, if you measured the voltage on BCM pin#13, Socket A with the the connecting wire to the loom still in place - de-pin this wire and measure the voltage again on Socket A.
i unplugged the connector A and measured voltage on pin 13 on BCM socket A and there was NO voltage with connecting wire in place or with connecting wire removed, both times WITH Ignition ON.
If you measured NO-voltage on BCM pin#13, Socket A with the connecting wire to the car-loom de-pinned - then this result suggests (to me) that the internal circuits inside the hex09 module are faulty (the T15 trigger signal in the BCM is not affected by the CP error)! In which case, this is an unusual fault since I believe that these circuits would be monitored/protected - was the BCM in your auto-scans original to this car and do the 3 x sockets on the BCM look OK physically ( maybe remove sockets and check mating pins)?

Also, before concluding that the BCM is faulty - check continuity (and isolation from chassis earth) for the "rt/sw" (meaning red/black) wire on @Jef WD. This wire terminates on BCM pin#13 Socket A and on either pin#85, or pin #66 (not sure which - but definitely not both) on the J329 relay plug.
scans were with original BCM BUT I plugged in donor BCM from same type running donor vehicle and its doing exactly same thing as original BCM, so i believe its not the BCM that is faulty. All the wiring and plugs , pins look good and clean
 
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Zeljo

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Also a sanity check of the J519 to kind of verify it knows the ignition switch is requesting Term 15 to be activated... in Central Electronics, go into Advance Measuring Values and search for "terminal 15" and check all the boxes.
here is my sanity check :
IDE02588-IDE00020 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 status active
IDE02588-IDE00773 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 status via CAN active
IDE02588-IDE01351 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 75 status On
IDE02588-IDE01715 Terminal signals and start release-Status terminal S active
IDE02588-IDE01716 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 50 status OFF
IDE02588-IDE06027 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal S status via CAN active
IDE02588-MAS12787 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 ignition switch signal 1 active
IDE02588-MAS12788 Terminal signals and start release-Terminal 15 ignition switch signal 2 active
 
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   #24  

Jef

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Based on your sanity check, I would expect the J519's T73a/13 to provide power to the low side of the J329, thus mechanical operation of the J329 to happen and complete the circuit for the high side of said J329 relay (Terminal 15).

If you pull the J329 relay out, hopefully you can ID the legs of the relay.

  • 30 - High side, from the battery, always has power
  • 85 - Low side, ground
  • 86 - Low side, power from J519 T73a/13 with ignition on
  • 87 - High side, the output of the relay, our much beloved "Terminal 15"

If you pull the relay out, you can take some scrap wire and twist it around a leg of the relay and the put the relay back into place... now you have a test lead off the relay so you can check for powers/grounds and such with everything hooked up. Then you can use a old school test light to see if you can ligth up the bulb with the 85 and 86 as power and ground.
 
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Zeljo

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If you pull the relay out, you can take some scrap wire and twist it around a leg of the relay and the put the relay back into place... now you have a test lead off the relay so you can check for powers/grounds and such with everything hooked up. Then you can use a old school test light to see if you can ligth up the bulb with the 85 and 86 as power and ground.
i m just getting 85 - ground and 30- battery power,
Now the ABS module seems to be a bit more oddball... looking at the wiring diagram, 3 fuses are listed, all are Terminal 30 fuses (power all the time).... what wakes up the ABS? Took me a few minutes but I found T46a/35 is a wire that has a weld point of "D51" which is noted as "Positive connection1 (15) (in engine compartment wiring harness)". Follow this wire further back, it goes to to another wed point "A192" which is noted as "Positive connection 3 (15a) (in instrument panel wiring harness). Said wire ends up at the J519 T73a/14.

Start hunting down other items that are split from weld points D51 or A192 and I find the address 01 and 14.

I stopped digging at this point... so some stuff is directly tied to the operation of that J329 relay. I'm not sure about the logic used for the weld points A192 and D51 that come from the J519.
seems that this J519 T73a wire is the main culprit but i traced it as far as i could and there is no wire damage anywhere, engine bay wirring harness was replaced with one from running vehicle, i tried switching modules that are not responding from donor runing vehicle just to see if i lll get comms but no change at all. i m now suspecting that instrument cluster might be damaged as everyting goes thru it or interior fuse panel might have some damage somewhere where that J329 is located , let me know what you think plz
 
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Jef

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If the J519 T73a is unplugged and you hot wire power to /13, does the J329 relay click?
 
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DV52

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i unplugged the connector A and measured voltage on pin 13 on BCM socket A............................
Zeljo: Without wishing to interrupt @Jef suggestions and if I'm reading your response correctly "unplugging the connector A" will disconnect lots of stuff from J519 -including:

Code:
1 Terminal 30 (SC26)
2 Heated seat cushion for driver seat -Z6-
3 Tank filler flap release -EX13- -
4 Tank filler flap release -EX13- +
5 Heated seat cushion for front passenger seat -Z8-
6 Rear right door central locking motor, lock-V215-
7 Rear right door central locking motor, lock-V215-
8
9 Rear lid central locking motor -V53-
10
11
12 Term. 31
13 Terminal 15 voltage supply relay -J329-
14 Terminal 15 voltage supply relay -J329-signal line
15 Sliding sunroof adjustment control unit-J245- , LIN bus
16 Convenience CAN bus high
17 Convenience CAN bus low
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29  Light switch -E1- Fog  Position
30 Rear right door central locking motor, lock-V215- , safe
31 Central locking button -E600-
32 Rear lid handle release button -E234-
33 Rear right door contact switch -F11-
34 Rear left door central locking motor, lock-V214- , safe
35 Rear left door contact switch -F10-
36 Rear left door central locking motor, lock-V214- , safe +
37 Rear right door central locking motor, lock-V215- , safe +
38
39
40
41
42
43 Light switch -E1- Park Position
44 Ignition/starter switch -D- , terminal 15
45
46 Light switch -E1- , zero position
47 Ignition/starter switch -D- , terminal 15
48 Rear right door contact switch -F11-
49 Heated rear window button -E230-
50 Rear left door contact switch -F10-
51 Button for deactivating interior monitoring and vehicle inclination sensor -E616-
52 Rear lid contact switch for anti-theft alarm-F123-
53 Terminal 31
54 Ignition/starter switch -D- , terminal S
55 Switch and instrument illumination regulator -E20- (5 Volt Power)
56
57 Additional brake light bulb -M25-  (third brake light)
58
59 Left number plate light -X4-Right number plate light -X5-
60 Rear left turn signal bulb -M6-
61 Rear window wiper motor -V12-
62 Rear window wiper motor -V12-
63 Terminal 31
64 Right reversing light bulb -M17-
65 Right brake and tail light bulb 2 -M59- (inner tail-light)
66 Terminal 30, right light supply  (SC23)
67
68 Rear left door central locking motor, lock-V214-
69 Rear left door central locking motor, lock-V214-
70
71 Left brake and tail light bulb -M21-
72 Rear left fog light bulb -L46-Rear right fog light bulb -L47- (inner tail-light)
73 Terminal 30, central locking supply (SC42)

So it's not surprising that there is no voltage on pin #13 (as I said, this is an unusual BCM fault)

............ and there was NO voltage with connecting wire in place or with connecting wire removed, both times WITH Ignition ON.
huh- this doesn't make sense (no offense intended).... if you had BCM Socket A disconnected and you measured NO voltage with and without the wire in place - it sounds like you are measuring volts on the wrong side of socket!! What you need to do is: with Socket A connected, either remove the wire from pin #13 (or de-pin, pin #13) and measure the voltage on the socket side of pin #13 (with ignition turned-on)

Don
 
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   #28  

Jef

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Cool, pin out info for T73a... so jumper wire from /1 (Terminal 30 SC26) to /13 for the J329 relay, does that make the relay click?
 
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DV52

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Cool, pin out info for T73a... so jumper wire from /1 (Terminal 30 SC26) to /13 for the J329 relay, does that make the relay click?
@Jef: Just wanted to stress that my BCM Socket A pin-out list for MQB platform cars (RoW) above is very much a working assumption - rather than being a definitive listing (so, very unofficial)

Regarding your good suggestion - I assume that you intended OP to de-pin/remove the wire from pin#13 first? Else the situation could arise where the internal BCM circuit could be holding pin #13 at zero volts at the same time that the SC26 temporary wire could be forcing battery volts onto the pin.

I'm not sure what would happen to the internal BCM circuits in this situation (I assume the internal driver for pin#13 is some kind of open-collector arrangement - but maybe not). In any event, I suspect that it's not a scenario that the design engineers ever considered for the protection of the internal circuits. So, probably better to avoid the risk entirely - by completely isolating the BCM side of pin #13 from the temporary set-up!!

Don
PS: I'd also like to pick-your-brain about pin#14 Socket A in my list- purely as an intellectual curiosity! For the benifit of others reading this - pin #14, Socket A is a wire from the ECU that appears to be a T15 "input" signal to the BCM. In OP's first auto-scan the hex01 module couldn't be reached - and in the second auto-scan with the forced T15 rail energized, the ECU did respond. Do you think that the changed T15 DTC in the BCM on OP's second auto-scan resulted from the changed status of this pin?
 
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Zeljo

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huh- this doesn't make sense (no offense intended).... if you had BCM Socket A disconnected and you measured NO voltage with and without the wire in place - it sounds like you are measuring volts on the wrong side of socket!! What you need to do is: with Socket A connected, either remove the wire from pin #13 (or de-pin, pin #13) and measure the voltage on the socket side of pin #13 (with ignition turned-on)
ok my bad i was doing it wrong but now i got same results, so with socket A connected and ignition on i got no voltage on pin#13 with wire connected or wire De-pined
If the J519 T73a is unplugged and you hot wire power to /13, does the J329 relay click?
you want me to unplugg T73a completely OR leave T73a plugged and just de-pin 13 wire and then hot wire power to 13 ???
 
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DV52

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ok my bad i was doing it wrong but now i got same results, so with socket A connected and ignition on i got no voltage on pin#13 with wire connected or wire De-pined
@Zeljo: good diagnostic information!!

To confirm my understanding of your test: ALL 3 x sockets were plugged-into the BCM (so factory standard set-up) except that the wire on pin#13 was isolated from socket A. The ignition was switched-on, voltage was measured on the socket-side of pin#13 (WHICH HAD NO WIRE CONNECTED) and the reading was 0 Volts.

I hope that you can see that with the set-up above, you are measuring the ability of the internal BCM circuits to drive the coil in J329. The fact that you measured 0 Volts means that the BCM isn't sending the T15 switch-on voltage to J329 -this is not a common fault!

So, assuming that you used a good earth point for your measurement - the result suggests that the BCM is faulty (or to use a local term "it's had the Jimmy rooster")

Maybe wait until you complete @Jef test before proceeding

Don
@Jef :you want me to unplugg T73a completely OR leave T73a plugged and just de-pin 13 wire and then hot wire power to 13 ???
With @Jef indulgence for answering on his behalf - I suspect that he meant that you leave socket A plugged-in and that you remove the wire from pin#13. Then run a temporary wire from BCM pin#1, socket A to the DISCONNECTED wire that was previously on pin#13. Do not connect the temporary wire directly to pin#13 on the BCM socket.

This test checks the integrity of the wiring loom/terminations between the BCM socket and J329. Be aware that BCM pin#1, Socket A is HARD battery volts, so regardless of the status of the ignition - it will be @ 12volts. Therefore, if the car loom is OK - you should expect to hear J329 "click" immediately when the temporary connection is made (and regardless of the ignition key position).

If you don't hear J329 "click" - confirm that pin#1 has +12 Volts using the same earth point as your measurement for my test

Don
 
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Zeljo

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To confirm my understanding of your test: ALL 3 x sockets were plugged-into the BCM (so factory standard set-up) except that the wire on pin#13 was isolated from socket A. The ignition was switched-on, voltage was measured on the socket-side of pin#13 (WHICH HAD NO WIRE CONNECTED) and the reading was 0 Volts.

I hope that you can see that with the set-up above, you are measuring the ability of the internal BCM circuits to drive the coil in J329. The fact that you measured 0 Volts means that the BCM isn't sending the T15 switch-on voltage to J329 -this is not a common fault!

So, assuming that you used a good earth point for your measurement - the result suggests that the BCM is faulty (or to use a local term "it's had the Jimmy rooster")

Maybe wait until you complete @Jef test before proceeding
Yes i did it per your instuctions, ground was good, NOW i also tried another 2 BCM s from same good running mk7 GOLF R's just to double check if my original BCM is no good but i got same results on all 3 BCM s so i dont think BCM is the issue.

I also checked TERMINAL 14 with wire 14 still pinned in socket that you mentioned previously and i got no voltage on it at all on all 3 BCM s also, was there supposed to be voltage on it and is that coming signal coming from engine ECU or where ?? i m starting to wondering if ECU is the culprit for all this as its the only module that i didnt change in the engine bay after the fire. when i access 01 it wont let me clear codes it says "the request to clear codes was not aknowledged by control module". i tried ECU from running vehicle and it shows same msg,but i m not sure if it would need to be codded first to work.
With @Jef indulgence for answering on his behalf - I suspect that he meant that you leave socket A plugged-in and that you remove the wire from pin#13. Then run a temporary wire from BCM pin#1, socket A to the DISCONNECTED wire that was previously on pin#13. Do not connect the temporary wire directly to pin#13 on the BCM socket.

This test checks the integrity of the wiring loom/terminations between the BCM socket and J329. Be aware that BCM pin#1, Socket A is HARD battery volts, so regardless of the status of the ignition - it will be @ 12volts. Therefore, if the car loom is OK - you should expect to hear J329 "click" immediately when the temporary connection is made (and regardless of the ignition key position).

If you don't hear J329 "click" - confirm that pin#1 has +12 Volts using the same earth point as your measurement for my test

Don
yes it CLICKS
 
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DV52

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yes it CLICKS

good diagnostic information - it confirms that the external equipment for the T15 rail (wiring loom and J329) are OK. So fault cause for "short to ground" DTC in BCM is elsewhere

NOW i also tried another 2 BCM s from same good running mk7 GOLF R's just to double check if my original BCM is no good but i got same results on all 3 BCM s so i dont think BCM is the issue.
Good diagnostic information - Agree!!

So, the compelling question from your latest data is of course - why doesn't pin #13A produce a trigger signal? Well, your latest results suggest that an internal BCM fault is not the cause- but, maybe the reason is because one of the T30 (i.e. hard +12V power) supplies to the BCM is missing? I'm guessing again and I have no idea how the internal circuits inside the BCM that drive pin #13A are designed - but logically the internal driver ciruit must draw power from one of the 6 x T30 supplies that are terminated on the BCM sockets .

So- perhaps confirm the following BCM (called "J519" in my very cut-down WD below) pins have battery voltage WITH THE IGNITION KEY REMOVED and all sockets plugged-in (doesn't matter whether the pin #13A wire is connected):

TNP5T1S.png

And to complete the BCM power supply checks - confirm that the following BCM earth pins are correctly connected:
  • Socket A pin #53
  • Socket A pin #63
  • Socket C pin #63
I also checked TERMINAL 14 with wire 14 still pinned in socket that you mentioned previously and i got no voltage on it at all on all 3 BCM s also, was there supposed to be voltage on it and is that coming signal coming from engine ECU or where ?? i m starting to wondering if ECU is the culprit for all this as its the only module that i didnt change in the engine bay after the fire. when i access 01 it wont let me clear codes it says "the request to clear codes was not aknowledged by control module". i tried ECU from running vehicle and it shows same msg,but i m not sure if it would need to be codded first to work.

Of course you could be correct, but as I have suggested already, this is a multi-headed beast of a problem - so before reaching a conclusion about the health of the ECU, maybe solve the T15 matter first.

I'm not sure of the purpose of BCM pin #14A except the descriptor on the BCM pin-out says "Terminal 15 voltage supply relay -J329- Signal line". I know from work on my MQB test-bench that the generation of the T15 trigger signal from BCM pin#13A is NOT conditional on the voltage status on pin #14A. So I conclude (guess really) that pin#14A is some kind of confirmation signal (as I have said)

As for your test on "TERMINAL 14 with wire 14 still pinned" - unless the T15 voltage rail on the car was energized at the same time that you made the measurement, I'm not sure that any conclusion can be reached at this juncture in your investigations (I think)
 
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Zeljo

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So- perhaps confirm the following BCM pins have battery voltage WITH THE IGNITION KEY REMOVED and all sockets plugged-in (doesn't matter whether the pin #13A wire is connected):

TNP5T1S.png

And to complete the BCM power supply checks - confirm that the following BCM earth pins are correctly connected:
  • Socket A pin #53
  • Socket A pin #63
  • Socket C pin #63
all voltages check out good BUT i got NO GROUND on Socket A pin #53, other two gounds i have, where does ground# 53 come from ????
 
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DV52

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all voltages check out good BUT i got NO GROUND on Socket A pin #53, other two gounds i have, where does ground# 53 come from ????
Ahhhh......... good - now you are narrowing down the cause!!

So, according to my early model mk7 WD, pin #53A on the BCM should be a brown/black wire - the other end of which is terminated on a weld connection in the main wiring harness. This connection provides earth for other gear, but the actual chasis earth point is on left rear wheel housing

Don
 
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Zeljo

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So, according to my early model mk7 WD, pin #53A on the BCM should be a brown/black wire - the other end of which is terminated on a weld connection in the main wiring harness. This connection provides earth for other gear, but the actual chasis earth point is on left rear wheel housing
yes its brown/black, can you shine some more light on routing where is goes exactly and whats the other gear that its connected too plz, if you have the WD???
 
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DV52

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@Zeljo: hmmm....... I need to be careful - because I'm conscious that the official WD has copyright and anything more than basic information contravenes the forum rules and the IP property of VW!

You can always get the complete picture yourself from the Erwin site HERE. Simply register and buy a 1 x hour subscription (not expensive). Have the car VIN ready and when you get access - download as many of the .PDF documents as possible (don't search for the info online). The WD is called "Basic equipment".

When the subscription time has lapsed - search the downloaded material on your PC/laptop at your leisure!!

Of course, the other approach is to run a temporary earth wire to pin #53A! It doesn't solve the problem of the precise location of the earth wire break in the loom - but it might be sufficient to get the T15 rail on the car operational

Don
 
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Uwe

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Simply register and buy a 1 x hour subscription (not expensive).
Since he's in Canada, I expect the NAR plans apply, and I believe the minimum they offer is 1 day (24h).

-Uwe-
 
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Zeljo

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Of course, the other approach is to run a temporary earth wire to pin #53A! It doesn't solve the problem of the precise location of the earth wire break in the loom - but it might be sufficient to get the T15 rail on the car operational
forced ground on pin #53 it didnt do anything, no change at all
 
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@Zeljo: Good - this is useful diagnostic information!!

The fact that the BCM has responded correctly to your auto-scan means that it is receiving the CAN wake-up message. Both auto-scans report B1148 11 [009] - Short to Ground for the BCM T15 fault.

To be clear and because your response is a tad "economic" (no offense intended) -With ignition-ON, if you measured the voltage on BCM pin#13, Socket A with the the connecting wire to the loom still in place - de-pin this wire and measure the voltage again on Socket A.

If you measured NO-voltage on BCM pin#13, Socket A with the connecting wire to the car-loom de-pinned - then this result suggests (to me) that the internal circuits inside the hex09 module are faulty (the T15 trigger signal in the BCM is not affected by the CP error)! In which case, this is an unusual fault since I believe that these circuits would be monitored/protected - was the BCM in your auto-scans original to this car and do the 3 x sockets on the BCM look OK physically ( maybe remove sockets and check mating pins)?

Also, before concluding that the BCM is faulty - check continuity (and isolation from chassis earth) for the "rt/sw" (meaning red/black) wire on @Jef WD. This wire terminates on BCM pin#13 Socket A and on either pin#85, or pin #66 (not sure which - but definitely not both) on the J329 relay plug.

Don
Hi Don,
Sorry to hijack but I was reading this thread about the T15 relay, I'm currently in a situation where my keys were stolen (2019 Golf keyless entry-kessy) and 2 of the windows are down.
I was told to bypass the T15 relay J329 to power up the ign but this doesn't work unless I'm doing it wrong.
Really want to get the windows up and can then wait for my new key to arrive from Germany.
 
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