In the news also recently RIGHT TO REPAIR ACT!

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Jack@European_Parts

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http://www.righttorepair.org/about/reality.aspx


The Motor Vehicle Owners Right to Repair
Act - Myth vs. Reality

Myth 1:

Car companies are making all information available to the independent aftermarket.

The Reality:

Despite claims by car companies that they are making everything available to independent aftermarket repair shops, these small businesses are facing serious issues due to the highly-computerized nature of today's vehicles. A survey of 1,000 aftermarket repair shops performed by Opinion Research found that over $5.8 billion in service and parts sales is being lost annually because independent repair shops are unable to readily access the necessary repair information and tools from car manufacturers to properly diagnose and repair vehicles. The survey also found that independent shops turn away 1.8 million consumers each year because they do not have the information and tools to get the job done.

While the problems experienced by independent technicians are wide ranging, the following are three major issues now faced by independent repair shops in attempting to obtain the information and tools needed to work on today's and tomorrow's vehicles: •Codes needed to reinitialize vehicle computer systems are not made available. Independent shops often are able to perform many repairs only to be stymied at the end when they cannot obtain the code to reinitialize the vehicle's computers and thus complete the repair. Absent entering the code, in many cases the car owner would not be able to restart the car following the repairs.
•Information provided to new dealers is more effective than what is provided to independents. A great deal of diagnostic and repair data is provided to car company franchised dealerships over "hotlines" that are not accessible to independent repair shops or consumers. Information available through these dealer-only networks provide valuable diagnostic assistance for hard to solve problem and might also have information regarding safety related repairs that need to be completed, but which an independent shop and car owner might not be aware of until a technical service bulletin or recall is released, a process that can take months if not years.
•The growing use of telematic systems by car companies will permit critical marketing and repair information to flow wirelessly using cell phone technology to the dealer, leaving the independents out of the loop. While telematics will provide extensive benefits to car owners, it also will be used by car companies and their dealers to tie the customer to the dealer long after the new car warranty has expired.
Myth 2:

Right to repair is really intended to make it easier for aftermarket companies to reproduce original equipment parts and then manufacture them overseas.

The Reality: •The right to repair legislation only applies to information necessary to repair a vehicle. The information needed to produce replacement parts is very different from the information used to repair a vehicle. Unlike a parts producer, a repair technician does not need to know the internal software codes or specifications of a part. They only need to know the information that comes off the diagnostic systems in order to understand where a failure has occurred and how to repair that malfunction.
•Replacement parts sold in the aftermarket are often produced by the same company that produced the original equipment component. The only difference is the name on the box.
•Section 3(d) of the legislation permits car companies to withhold any information that is a trade secret and is not made available to the new car dealer for purposes of repairs. Therefore any information that is not necessary for repairs and is not provided to the franchised dealer would not need to be made available. The Clean Air Act, which requires the provision of the same information for emissions related repairs has similar protections and has been effective in protecting car company trade secrets. In fact, since implementation in 1995, there has never been an intellectual property dispute involving service information or tools.
•The car companies have yet to produce a single shred of evidence that would back up their assertion that this legislation will make it any easier to design and produce replacement parts. Its interesting that the manufacturers claim that all of the information necessary to repair vehicle is already available to shops, but then claim that release of this information will cause the exposure of trade secrets that will help parts manufacturers better copy their parts.
Myth 3:

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) opposes right to repair legislation and has not received any complaints from shops or consumers regarding car companies not making information available.

Reality: •In fact, the FTC is officially neutral on right to repair and has not opposed passage of the legislation.
•While the FTC has received some complaints, it is very unlikely that an independent repair shop would complain to the FTC over service information issues. Further, consumers normally do not always know that a repair problem or delay is due to issues regarding access to information and tools. In fact, in most cases the independent repair shop will bring the vehicle to the dealership for the customer so as to not inconvenience them or to alert them to the fact that the independent could not complete the repair.
•Finally, the FTC Chairman testified at hearings held in late September by the House Small Business Committee that the reason they are not supporting right to repair is that if a consumer is unhappy about the repair service by the dealership, that consumer will simply buy another vehicle. This of course negates the fact that it could be 10 years before a consumer could purchase another vehicle; and in fact in today's economy, it is unlikely that they will be purchasing any new car for quite some time.
Myth 4:

The car companies and the aftermarket already have a cooperative agreement to provide information through the National Automotive Service Task Force (NASTF) that is ensuring all information is provided to independent shops.

The Reality:

The car companies have attempted to derail Right to Repair efforts in Congress by pointing to the work of the National Automotive Service Task Force (NASTF). NASTF was established in 2000 to resolve service information issues raised by the independent service industry. In reality, NASTF has acted as a clearinghouse by taking specific information complaints brought by independent vehicle repair shops and funneling them to the appropriate vehicle manufacturer. Unfortunately, this effort has fallen far short of what is needed and has not been used to any great extent by the independent service industry for the following reasons: •In many cases, information resolution by NASTF can take weeks and even months. An independent repair shop with a car in a service bay needs that information the same day that the vehicle is in the shop or will lose that customer to the dealer competition.
•While NASTF is a noble effort for the service industry and the car companies to cooperatively resolve information issues, car companies are not subject to any fines for failure to make information or tools available.
•NASTF has no anti-trust exemption and therefore cannot address issues where car companies are charging too much for needed information or tools. This is a major problem for independent shops that could be unfairly priced out of the market for many types of tools and information.
•A cooperative approach works only if both sides have something to gain and there is third-party enforcement. However, many manufacturers and their franchised dealer networks feel that they have much to gain from retaining control of the parts and service market. According to the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA), even though dealership parts and service department sales comprise just 11.8 percent of typical dealer's total sales, it contributes 48 percent of the total operating profit. New car sales make up 60 percent of total sales, but only contribute 35 percent of total profit. The dramatic drop in new car sales over the past several months has only placed more pressure on dealerships to make up the difference through their repair shop business. History has shown that the marketing and competitive interests of the manufacturers will override their current promise to make all information available once the legislation has disappeared from their radar screen.
•The truth is that NASTF will become a much more effective organization if Right to Repair legislation is enacted. Once car companies know that they could be subject to federal and state action if they do not fully comply with information requests, the incentive for cooperation will be much greater.
•The aftermarket entered into the negotiations with the vehicle manufacturers back in 2005 under the auspices of the Better Business Bureau in an attempt to improve the effectiveness of NASTF. However, after weeks of difficult negotiations, the talks fell apart when manufacturers were unwilling to provide NASTF with a balanced governing board and sufficient enforcement powers should the car companies fail to make the needed information available.
 
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Flaps10

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I'm guilty of only reading the first few paragraphs and, scanning a bit more and then my eyes glazing over. But. I'm about to rant.

Color me libertarian but "right to repair"? I make buggy whips and wagon wheels. I'm butt hurt that no one buys my product anymore. Can I argue some type of damage and "right" to build buggy whips full tilt?

I had FULL control of the engine parameters on my Subaru, have FULL control of everything on my Triumph motorcycle, had some rudimentary ability to speak to my e46, really good control over the VW thanks to Uwe and crew. Uwe's software and cable will get basic OBD2 information from my Boxster but much is coded to factory. Even if I buy the "stuff", I'll likely have less control than Uwe's software gives me on the Touareg.


Not reflecting on anyone in this forum: I've seen far more cases of incompetence, nay thievery, from repair shops that could have been properly diagnosed and repaired the first time, but instead the shop played hack and stab and guessed at repairs. Customer brings car back 5 times and pays each time before a guess finally sinks a battle ship. That is robbery to me when you can just plug in to the car with a basic OBD2 reader and google a code. I do it all the friggin time and have since before Al Gore invented the interwebs (okay, not the google part. I had to belong to a true snail mail mailing list when I owned a Fiero. Learned to read codes from a flashing check engine light and then look stuff up in a Hayne's manual).

My GF's friend texted her last week. Brakes were sounding funny. No warning. Dropped the car off and the shop told her she needed all new calipers. $700. I said "sounds like a rock in a caliper". She took the car to another place. Rock in the caliper. Should have been that shops first guess. It was mine and I don't do this for a living.

A couple months back the GF took our Touareg into have the emissions checked for license tabs. Apparently the state is out of the business and you now go to various approved indy shops. She picked one. While doing the check they told her that the oil wasn't even on the dip stick, that the oil seemed really thick, and that she needed an engine flush. That's MY car. That fucker holds more oil than the Exxon Valdez, it's 0W-30 which is like water and NO modern engine needs a flush. If there wasn't any on the stick, what caused them to believe it was too thick?

In the next bay over they were convincing some old lady that she needed a $600 repair. Thankfully my woman has a spine and told them to check the emissions like she paid them to and DIAF.

The older I get the more hard over I get: No one touches my car with a wrench but me.

/rant.

I will agree that some cars are ridiculous. My e46 was like working on an old pickup. Six cylinders in a row just like God intended, rear drive. Did a lot of work on that aging car and none of it was hard (I hear the starter is a bitch). I did water pump, valve cover gasket, LCAs, etc. No head scratching.

However the e46 may be the last bmw I would consider owning. Newer cars have a computerized battery. Dealer only, as it requires being married to the ECU. Why the F does my battery need a computer? Give me 12.5 volts and shut the hell up for 6-7 years. They've also crapped the bed on access to a lot of components.

I have a right to not open my wallet and buy that car. And won't.
 
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Uwe

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I've had mixed feelings on the whole "Right to repair" thing all along and I still do.

NASTF is useless. Their attitude is, as long as manufacturers make their proprietary scan tools available to independent shops, all is well. Paying that much for a new tool every 3-5 years (and annual licensing fees for updates) may be acceptable to some of the bigger/better independent shops, but it doesn't solve the problem for smaller shops or individual car owners.

We had an E46 for a while (from back in the day when we were thinking about doing BMW as well). The alternator was more of a pain to R&R than it had any right to be on that car.

I doubt the newer BMW batteries are actually computerized. I don't know for sure, but I bet it's like many newer VW/Audi models where the battery management module needs to be told that a new battery has been installed and makes certain assumptions about that battery's parameters based on what it's told.

-Uwe-
 
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vreihen

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My e46 was like working on an old pickup. Six cylinders in a row just like God intended, rear drive.
This is why my daily driver is a Dodge Ram with the I-6 Cummins diesel and a 6-speed manual gearbox. Because of the government/fleet contracts requiring self-repair, the service info and specialty tools are readily available. Heck, the schematics are freely available on the web on an official Dodge web site from 2015 all the way back to 2004! Of course, 600+ ft/lbs of torque under my right foot and a towing capacity that exceeds my drivers license don't hurt. If the )#@*)%)@(*# thing could just go around corners, my Audi would be history..... :)
 
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jyoung8607

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Last summer I made the horrible, terrible mistake of getting involved with my sister-in-law's car problems. She has a late 2000s Nissan Altima with a CVT and it blew the transmission. It was educational on a number of levels.

Any time you think we have it bad: Nissan has started shipping all service ECUs and TCUs blank. Everything has to be flashed for its particular application upon install at the dealer. At some level it makes sense; it's a waste of resources for VW/Audi to keep hundreds of versions of the exact same hardware sitting around depending on its flash software load and the printed label. On the other hand, without a pass-thru rig and access to Nissan's system, independents simply can't install new powertrain control modules. I think you can still go used though.

Jason
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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•Information provided to new dealers is more effective than what is provided to independents. A great deal of diagnostic and repair data is provided to car company franchised dealerships over "hotlines" that are not accessible to independent repair shops or consumers.
This is the one that bothers me..............and it is true!

In 2003 VW-AUDI removed the diagnostic repair information as it was prior written and moved it to the diagnostic tester.

It then moved flash updates, SVM config and Immobilizer PINS to online Fazit/GeKo only shortly after within the USA.

I find it completely unfair to sell a car with a security device such as a radio code, however, than not provide that owner from the day he/she buys a car with the PIN code or CP byte data to be able to preform their own repairs.

Because they used to provide the SKC prior to 2001.................on the key code tag!

VW-AUDI were sued over keys and lost........just the lawyers didn't sue them right in my opinion for the whole thing.

Key program.......... bahhhhh bullshit!

Ford took notice I see on how pissed off customers were.
They initiated a do it yourself key marrying process in the car or trucks no scanner needed at all.
 
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vreihen

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Will the auto industry ride on the coat tails of this campaign?????

http://newyork.digitalrighttorepair.org/

Dear New Yorkers,

It's time to speak out for your right to repair

Right now, New York has a chance to pass the first Fair Repair bill in the nation. We have a chance to guarantee our right to repair electronics—like smartphones, computers, and even farm equipment. We have a chance to help the environment and stand up for local repair jobs—the corner mom-and-pop repair shops that keep getting squeezed out by manufacturers.

We've been working with local repair companies to come up with a solution. The Fair Repair Bill, known as S3998 in the State Senate and A6068 in the State Assembly, requires manufacturers to provide owners and independent repair businesses with fair access to service information, security updates, and replacement parts.

If you agree with us, find out who represents you in New York’s legislatures. Tell them you support the bipartisan Fair Repair bill, S3998 in the State Senate and A6068 in the State Assembly. Tell them that you believe repair should be fair, affordable, and accessible. Stand up for the right to repair in New York.
 
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Uwe

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2.(C) EACH MANUFACTURER OF DIGITAL ELECTRONIC PRODUCTS SOLD OR USED IN
THE STATE OF NEW YORK SHALL MAKE AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE BY OWNERS AND
INDEPENDENT REPAIR FACILITIES ALL DIAGNOSTIC REPAIR TOOLS INCORPORATING
THE SAME DIAGNOSTIC, REPAIR AND REMOTE COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITIES THAT
SUCH MANUFACTURER MAKES AVAILABLE TO ITS OWN REPAIR OR ENGINEERING STAFF
OR ANY AUTHORIZED REPAIR CHANNELS. EACH MANUFACTURER SHALL OFFER SUCH
TOOLS FOR SALE TO OWNERS AND TO INDEPENDENT REPAIR FACILITIES UPON FAIR
AND REASONABLE TERMS.
So if we have test stands for the interfaces we sell, interfaces that might happen to be used in NYS, we have to make those test stands available for purchase?

Watch me refuse to sell anything to anyone in NYS if this becomes law.

-Uwe-
 
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vreihen

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I believe they are targeting consumer electronics manufacturers with that clause. Apple has a bad reputation for not selling repair parts or providing info outside of their own stores, and I believe that they are targeting Genius Bar employees as engineers. Of course, you are 100% correct to point out that the courts will have to rule on the true meaning of those words, so someone could potentially twist them to gain access to a company's test/research test equipment and possibly even source code.....
 
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Uwe

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Hah, speaking of Apple.. My family is now officially iPhone free.
 
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Bruce

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Auto Care Association Responds to Alliance for Automotive Innovation Lawsuit in Massachusetts
BETHESDA, Md. – November 23, 2020 – The following statement can be attributed to Bill Hanvey, president and CEO, Auto Care Association:

“On Nov. 3, the citizens of Massachusetts made their voices loud and clear on the issue of vehicle data access, with an overwhelming 75% of voters supporting ballot Question 1. Unfortunately, the vehicle manufacturers are once again ignoring the will of the people and have instead chosen to pursue legal action against the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in an effort to halt the implementation of Question 1. The Auto Care Association is very disappointed to see this pattern of behavior from the vehicle manufacturers against the American people, who want the right to control their vehicle mechanical data and to share it with their independent repair shops.
 
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