How to emergency Regen while sitting

   #81  

Jack@European_Parts

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The exhaust flap will not interfere with a DPF regen. it will cause a check engine ( MIL) light.
It absolutely will.............

Quote of SSP.....
The Exhaust Throttle Valve has the following tasks:

In certain operating conditions, a differential
pressure is generated between the NOx storage
catalyst and the turbocharger.
This increase in pressure helps with Low Pressure
EGR return.

Effect of Failure:

If the Throttle Valve Control Module fails, the correct
regulation of exhaust gas recirculation rate is not
possible.
Regeneration of the NOx storage catalyst
does not take place.

Hence DPF MIL........

Was really nice of you to offer that valve though..........:)
 
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   #82  

mikeme

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No disrespect intended, but I did have my exhaust flap lock up, had errors for stuck open and stuck closed. and the check engine light.

I ordered a new one, (my choice, I know I probably could have removed, and cleaned and lubed and pressed on...)

also did some research in the Self Study Program 826803 2.0 Liter TDI Common Rail BIN5 ULEV Engine which led me to understand that the exhaust flap works to reduce flow associated with NOX cats, and not the DPF It is used to regulate EGR flow.

the input throttle valve J338 and Throttle position sensor G69 is associated with DPF regen and with EGR control. malfunction in either will prevent DPF active regen or EGR.

based on my understanding, as I said, I drove just shy of 1000 miles with a locked up exhaust flap, MIL lit, and errors for exhaust flap stuck open and stuck closed. ( I can post the specific errors if needed, on my other computer) I watched exhaust temps cycle via my scangauge II several times during this drive, and verified via VCDS that calculated soot levels and miles since regeneration had reset, indicating sucessful regeneration.

I say kudos to you, Jack, for the oven cleaner as a way to reduce soot levels, and perhaps also ash, and I clap for JNOJetta, for the DIY efforts, and hanging in there.

at this point, if the computer has been convinced that the DPF has been reset, and other sensors (pressure and temperature, and Oxygen) are working, a drive should result in adding value to the reported calculated soot, (was it reset to zero?), perhaps also for the measured soot, and if luck is in the house, an active regeneration should fire off in a couple hundred miles.
 
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   #83  

mikeme

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It absolutely will.............




Was really nice of you to offer that valve though..........:)
The Throttle valve control module, is I think, in the intake end of things, not in the exhaust.

I know the paragraph in the SSG is under the photo of the exhaust valve. but I am pretty sure it is about the intake valve.
 
   #84  

mikeme

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in any case, it seems to me, (just a suggestion, and free advice.....) that since it is all back together, perhaps some logging and watching may be a good path.
 
   #85  

Jack@European_Parts

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No disrespect intended, but I did have my exhaust flap lock up, had errors for stuck open and stuck closed. and the check engine light.

I ordered a new one, (my choice, I know I probably could have removed, and cleaned and lubed and pressed on...)

also did some research in the Self Study Program 826803 2.0 Liter TDI Common Rail BIN5 ULEV Engine which led me to understand that the exhaust flap works to reduce flow associated with NOX cats, and not the DPF It is used to regulate EGR flow.

the input throttle valve J338 and Throttle position sensor G69 is associated with DPF regen and with EGR control. malfunction in either will prevent DPF active regen or EGR.

based on my understanding, as I said, I drove just shy of 1000 miles with a locked up exhaust flap, MIL lit, and errors for exhaust flap stuck open and stuck closed. ( I can post the specific errors if needed, on my other computer) I watched exhaust temps cycle via my scangauge II several times during this drive, and verified via VCDS that calculated soot levels and miles since regeneration had reset, indicating sucessful regeneration.

I say kudos to you, Jack, for the oven cleaner as a way to reduce soot levels, and perhaps also ash, and I clap for the OP, for the DIY efforts.

at this point, if the computer has been convinced that the DPF has been reset, and other sensors (pressure and temperature, and Oxygen) are working, a drive should result in adding value to the reported calculated soot, (was it reset to zero?), perhaps also for the measured soot, and if luck is in the house, an active regeneration should fire off in a couple hundred miles.

None taken........... I see your intent is genuine just felt the need to correct it when I know it was wrong.

That is the difference between active, passive, custom, and service regeneration formats.

You can see what I sated before in the SSP I quoted as a basis......not just shooting my mouth off.

You can also see further details in the SSP I describe at page 61 forward.......

If all is working and a drive is preformed....... it will most likely auto-adapt...........correct!
If a fault is static and preventing the DCY from completing............ like in this case illuminate the DPF light.
We have not yet failed enough times or corrected itself for the MIL.
I am sure it will work out though.
I have helped many with this already proven method.

It's not always easy for noobs to get it right, or be familiar on first shot....... so I understand his frustration.
I say he has done a hell of great job so far. Thumbs up!:thumbs:
 
   #86  

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No disrespect intended, but I did have my exhaust flap lock up, had errors for stuck open and stuck closed. and the check engine light.

I ordered a new one, (my choice, I know I probably could have removed, and cleaned and lubed and pressed on...)

also did some research in the Self Study Program 826803 2.0 Liter TDI Common Rail BIN5 ULEV Engine which led me to understand that the exhaust flap works to reduce flow associated with NOX cats, and not the DPF It is used to regulate EGR flow.

the input throttle valve J338 and Throttle position sensor G69 is associated with DPF regen and with EGR control. malfunction in either will prevent DPF active regen or EGR.

based on my understanding, as I said, I drove just shy of 1000 miles with a locked up exhaust flap, MIL lit, and errors for exhaust flap stuck open and stuck closed. ( I can post the specific errors if needed, on my other computer) I watched exhaust temps cycle via my scangauge II several times during this drive, and verified via VCDS that calculated soot levels and miles since regeneration had reset, indicating sucessful regeneration.

I say kudos to you, Jack, for the oven cleaner as a way to reduce soot levels, and perhaps also ash, and I clap for JNOJetta, for the DIY efforts, and hanging in there.

at this point, if the computer has been convinced that the DPF has been reset, and other sensors (pressure and temperature, and Oxygen) are working, a drive should result in adding value to the reported calculated soot, (was it reset to zero?), perhaps also for the measured soot, and if luck is in the house, an active regeneration should fire off in a couple hundred miles.
None taken........... I see your intent is genuine just felt the need to correct it when I know it was wrong.

That is the difference between active, passive, custom, and service regeneration formats.

You can see what I sated before in the SSP I quoted as a basis......not just shooting my mouth off.

You can also see further details in the SSP I describe at page 61 forward.......

If all is working and a drive is preformed....... it will most likely auto-adapt...........correct!
If a fault is static and preventing the DCY from completing............ like in this case illuminate the DPF light.
We have not yet failed enough times or corrected itself for the MIL.
I am sure it will work out though.
I have helped many with this already proven method.

It's not always easy for noobs to get it right, or be familiar on first shot....... so I understand his frustration.
I say he has done a hell of great job so far. Thumbs up!:thumbs:
First off I want to say thank you for all the kind words! I am a car enthusiast and in order for me to be one i need to do all my own work. No offense to everyone that works on cars professionally but i simply can not afford the labor. I have been a little slow on this project because i have the car at my father in laws house (where the car lift is) Im going over there later tonight to pick up the car so i can drive it for a couple days to work. (100 miles round trip) I really cant tell everyone enough how much i appreciate the help. Everyone has guided me through this and i cant wait to get this last light off. Im really hoping that driving it will do the trick as i have seen that suggested in more than one place. I know the flap is stuck open and im going to try to run the test with the car in the air so i can see if the flap is moving. This has been an ongoing problem (flap) with this car since it had 30,000 miles on it and it has never had dpf problems. This problem was from the bad egt sensor. Yes the soot and ash are reset to zero and i have not had a regen since i have reinstalled the DPF. I cant force one either because im not over the 20g minimum. Once again thank you so much to everyone that has been taking time out of their day to help out a stranger!


BTW can i only post pictures on here that have a URL?
 
   #88  

roth

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My 3 Cents.

I was reading this whole thread for a while and have a few points to make. Seems to me that there is a lot of folklore in the subject. Don't want to step on any toes but there are some things I'd like to point out.

Read slowly!

DPFs are designed to filter out DPs (soot) from the diesel exhaust. They are designed as NOT "see trough" filters like catalytic converters are BUT have the small channels closed off so the exhaust gas (small molecules) CAN pass trough but DPs (big particles) cannot.


Now how big are we talking about. Well, the modern DPF will filter out particles of 1 micron (1 millionth of a meter) and bigger with about 95% and higher efficiency! To compare, dust mite is about 300 microns, human hair is 20-180 microns, red blood cell 6-10 microns. You get the idea, what we are talking about here???


So, any idea of cleaning it by flushing it, especially in the direction of the exhaust, no, I'm not buying it :facepalm:. Yes it is possible to clean the DPF by blasting the DPs by highly compressed air in the direction opposite to the direction of exhaust, baking the DPF in high temperature (around 800 C) overnight and finally, again blasting the remaining ash with highly compressed air and that is how this is really done professionally. Additionally, on 2.0T diesel the DPF is combined with oxidation catalyst. So, to clean it properly you would have to cut the DPF part out first.


Now, on the so called DPF regeneration.

As you drive and the DPF is filtering the soot out of the exhaust, the design of the exhaust (catalyst and DPF close to exhaust manifold) is doing the regeneration by itself, without any input from ECM. Simply put the CAT and DPF get hot enough (around 600 C) for long enough for this process to take place. This is called passive regeneration.

If the the above scenario does not happen, the ECM is taking active role and starting so called active regeneration. In which it will try to increase the temperature of the DPF by injecting extra fuel, delaying injection, adding extra air and so on. This usually takes care of the problem, provided that the car is driven long enough.

If this is not the case and the soot level continues to increase, the ECM will turn the DPF warning lamp ON after the soot level crosses the threshold value (about 24 grams). This is to let the driver know to preform so called regeneration drive on which the driver can read in his / her OWNERS MANUAL.

If the driver fails to do so and the soot level continues to increase, the glow plug and check engine indicator will light up as well, as soon as the soot level reaches 40 grams. This is to let the driver know that the active regeneration is turned off and only service regeneration is now possible. This is done by following a special procedure with VCDS or other capable tool.

If the driver fails to do so and the soot level reaches 45 grams the regeneration is turned off and DPF needs to be replaced with new or reconditioned one.

Additionally, as a safety measure, the ECM will also start an active regeneration automatically if during the last 466 to 621 miles (750 to 1000 km) of travel no successful regeneration has taken place, regardless of soot level.

ECM uses bunch of sensors (temperature, pressure, air flow, O2 content) and internal map to determine the soot level. Therefore, you have soot level calculated and measured in MVBs. This information is used (along with the sensor data) to start, conduct and finish active regeneration.

All this information can be red and, with a informed use of label file, evaluated in relevant MVBs with VCDS. So, you know what is really going on with your DPF system.

So, now, after you red this, what do you think is going on with your car?

Can you start proper diagnose 1st, maybe, by posting the relevant values from the relevant MVBs (DPF related)?

Maybe, then we can learn something together and your car gets fixed in the process.;)

BR, Andy
 
   #89  

Jack@European_Parts

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Hey Andy..........

You may not be buying it..........however, neither did the people who were told they needed the PTF at the dealer or private shop.

Everyone of them is still driving with no error......... and no issue at a cost of time and some cheap oxidizing cleaner.

It is well documented using a corrosive to clean a contaminated catalyst for gas and diesel.

A catalyst can't function if the rare metals are coated and blocked from being able to make there exothermic reaction.

Manual removal and heat are not the only method.

You would be surprised what chemicals will do or even good old soap and water.
Once you have removed a majority of the soot/ash you now can let the heated functions and cycles take over through normal driving in the car.
 
   #90  

jnojetta

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So i drove the car to work today, about 50 miles. The DPF light is still on. Calculated soot is at 7.5 and measured soot is at 0. It shows that the car has tried to have 2 regens but it also says 0 successful regens. Looks like the exhaust flap may be causing some issues. I have a hard time understanding why because that exhaust flap has had MIL lights on and off all the time since the car was damn near new and i could always tell when it would go into a regen and never had any problems with it. I am going to pull the flapper again, check connection (pins and make sure its plugged in all the way) and lube and work it again. When I use VCDS to do the output test should the values in the boxes change? looks like all of mine say 0 or 0%. The second from the last box says something like "0000100" then it will change sometimes to "0000000". Voltage in the last window shows 4.7v. Let me know what you guys think. I honestly feel like i'm missing something simple. LOL
 
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   #91  

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I express no opinion on DPF cleaning methods here... I'm not really qualified.

Now how big are we talking about. Well, the modern DPF will filter out particles of 1 micron (1 millionth of a meter) and bigger with about 95% and higher efficiency! To compare, dust mite is about 300 microns, human hair is 20-180 microns, red blood cell 6-10 microns. You get the idea, what we are talking about here???
That said, I have to take a moment to appreciate the engineering that has to go into that filter. 100K miles of service or more from a B95 1 micron filter that catches very nasty stuff at very hot temperatures moving at a very high rate. I think a decent full-flow oil filter is only B95 20 microns or so, and we depend on those to keep our lubrication systems happy.

I wish I better understood the chemistry involved. I've read through much of the educational links Ross-Tech put up recently for modern VW diesel emissions controls, and that is just some crazy Rube Goldberg stuff going on. It amazes me they can make that number of inter-dependent control and feedback loops work right the day it rolls out of the factory, let alone as it ages.

Jason
 
   #92  

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Requested Regenerations is not a count of the number of times a regeneration is asked for. Not sure if I have ever seen the successful regeneration number higher than zero on my car.

The Requested Regenerations indicated number increases until an active regeneration is asked for, and decreases during the active regeneration. the values for calculated and measured soot seem good, would expect the requested regenerations, and calculated soot to increase as you drive, until (hopefully) and active regeneration event happens. You also should be able to see DPF differential pressure readings. (just to reassure yourself that the pressure sensors are working ok)

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/dpf-obd-charts/ I put up some charts from my car (which seems to be working ok) for reference.
I would want to be logging data at least till you have seen a regeneration. since you used oven cleaner to remove soot (and perhaps some ash), the hope is that a regeneration will not harm the car or damage the DPF. (will depend on how much soot was chemically removed)

It seems to me that the primary benefit from a chemical wash is to reduce soot. Lying to the computer that a new DPF is installed resets calculated soot value as well as calculated ash value. Since the computer does not see a soot value over 45g, it will start an active regeneration when called for by the calculated, measured soot, or miles since, whichever comes first. if enough soot was removed, the regeneration should happen, (if all the involved sensors are working ok) since some of the soot was removed, a safe regeneration (and many more into the future) is hoped for.

since the ash value is also calculated, it is not clear at all to me what the actual limit for accumulated ash is, or how accurate the calculated ash value is.
 
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   #93  

jnojetta

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Requested Regenerations is not a count of the number of times a regeneration is asked for. Not sure if I have ever seen the successful regeneration number higher than zero on my car.

The Requested Regenerations indicated number increases until an active regeneration is asked for, and decreases during the active regeneration. the values for calculated and measured soot seem good, would expect the requested regenerations, and calculated soot to increase as you drive, until (hopefully) and active regeneration event happens. You also should be able to see DPF differential pressure readings. (just to reassure yourself that the pressure sensors are working ok)

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/dpf-obd-charts/ I put up some charts from my car (which seems to be working ok) for reference.
I would want to be logging data at least till you have seen a regeneration. since you used oven cleaner to remove soot (and perhaps some ash), the hope is that a regeneration will not harm the car or damage the DPF. (will depend on how much soot was chemically removed)

It seems to me that the primary benefit from a chemical wash is to reduce soot. Lying to the computer that a new DPF is installed resets calculated soot value as well as calculated ash value. Since the computer does not see a soot value over 42g, it will start an active regeneration when called for by the calculated, measured soot, or miles since, whichever comes first. if enough soot was removed, the regeneration should happen, (if all the involved sensors are working ok) since some of the soot was removed, a safe regeneration (and many more into the future) is hoped for.

since the ash value is also calculated, it is not clear at all to me what the actual limit for accumulated ash is, or how accurate the calculated ash value is.
I think I read somewhere the requested regen will count up to 5. Does that sound right?
 
   #94  

Jack@European_Parts

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All faults must be corrected before a valid regeneration process can take place.

I have done many of these with a 100% success rate to date.
That includes turbo chargers which dumped oil in intake and exhaust and were run for a few miles........after turbo grenade's even.

I have seen an awful lot of PSI sensors fail.....

Most of the cars which were plugged up did a lot of traffic driving or the customer was lazy letting car warm up in driveway for like 30 minutes everyday.
Especially the ones waiting for heat or AC to facilitate that perfect temp cabin.
Most were automatics with remote start!
 
   #95  

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I have seen discussion that it goes to six. others have said it can go higher. mine set off an active regen when the number was 5.
 
   #96  

jnojetta

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All faults must be corrected before a valid regeneration process can take place.

I have done many of these with a 100% success rate to date.
That includes turbo chargers which dumped oil in intake and exhaust and were run for a few miles........after turbo grenade's even.

I have seen an awful lot of PSI sensors fail.....

Most of the cars which were plugged up did a lot of traffic driving or the customer was lazy letting car warm up in driveway for like 30 minutes everyday.
Especially the ones waiting for heat or AC to facilitate that perfect temp cabin.
Most were automatics with remote start!
Well the flapper is coming out again tonight to be inspected and lubed. I can only hope this will take care of it. I have seen that the spring will hold the valve open. If you close it by hand and let go the spring will reopen the valve. I can say for sure mine does not do that but it does not take much effort at all to move the flap by use of your finger. Hope to have better results tonight. I can't believe the exhaust flap has not thrown a engine light like it has done in the past. The car was drove about 35,000 miles with the MIL on and off for the flapper and it never had any issues doing a regen then. I'm going to take Jacks advise and remove it again as he has been a great deal of knowledge and help thus far. Besides, it's good practice to repair the car to the best of your abilities.
 
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   #97  

Jack@European_Parts

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Now for the second way I remove the particulates in the DPF ................if I happen to take it out of car.

First I clean it as prior stated........

Then I install in the abrasive blast tank. Very fine Walnut shells or even fine glass sand ........sent through the inlet and I install the vacuum to reclaim, pulling it through on other side to increase the flow.

Then I walk away for a few hours, or even overnight then reverse the process......Then final soak and rinse.

I have cut them open to observe before and after.
This method is also tried and true when removing carbon/soot/ASH.........

It should be noted it is the beginning opening that where the block of these units starts.
If you open them up and cut apart dirty you can see where the significant pile up is.
That is why the oven cleaner works so well.

Once proper flow is established........ the PSI sensors will see the required threshold changes that allow for the regen.
PTF fails the same way it does in a gas car cat.......and can be melted blocking the inlets if regen is started while to high.

A nice feature that is doesn't allow a regen in the TDI which allows for the cleaning window.

An additional note to know you have achieved a good cleaning is to weigh the unit before and after if removed.

Ever feel how much heavier a plugged CAT unit is?

On gas cars I have even cut the front section of the CAT off then band sawed the first 10 MM to open up the burned inlets.
This reveals the cells again and the CAT works great after being cleaned and re-welded together.
The OEM cats have always typically had like 75% more rare metals than the AFT CATS I have seen.

When sawing a CAT always take care to wear proper breathing gear and in vented area, because you don't want to breathe in the dust particulates.
 
   #98  

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Well the flapper is coming out again tonight to be inspected and lubed. I can only hope this will take care of it. I have seen that the spring will hold the valve open. If you close it by hand and let go the spring will reopen the valve. I can say for sure mine does not do that but it does not take much effort at all to move the flap by use of your finger. Hope to have better results tonight. I can't believe the exhaust flap has not thrown a engine light like it has done in the past. The car was drove about 35,000 miles with the MIL on and off for the flapper and it never had any issues doing a regen then. I'm going to take Jacks advise and remove it again as he has been a great deal of knowledge and help thus far. Besides, it's good practice to repair the car to the best of your abilities.
Why not check the operating voltages for the exhaust flap 1st, which are:

closed 0.5-0.9 V
open 3.8-4.5 V

and try to preform basic setting for it if applicable.

BR, Andy
 
   #99  

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Sure I agree Andy ..........that's why I said it in post #79.

I would absolutely run basics a few times..........
 
   #100  

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Well men this is post 100 and on post 100 im happy to tell everyone my problems are gone!!!!!! I put 100 miles on the car today going to and from work and the DPF light was still on when i got home. Just before i got home i got a check engine light for the exhaust pressure valve! I was beyond pissed to say the least as i felt that i was taking another step backward and i was having such a hard time moving forward. Right before the got to my father in laws house the DPF light went off! I wanted to still pull the exhaust flap because i want the car right! I pulled off the valve and spent over 1 hour with it out of the car working it back and forth trying to loosen it up the best that i could. I reassembled and reinstalled, so far so good! I simply can not express my gratitude to everyone that has contributed to this post! Everyone has been so much help and brought so much to the discussion! To you Mr.Jack, thank you for the foaming oven cleaner tip and the patience you had walking me through some of the steps as i was not use to VCDS at all when i started. I have never had this much support from a forum before. When i bought my VCDS system, Bruce from Ross Tech told me that he was confident Ross Tech has one of the best, most supportive forums on the web. I must say gents, that was an understatement. Im rambling at this point and i feel everyone understand where im coming from. So on an ending note, for all the doubters, YES YES YES the foaming oven cleaner works! Follow Jacks instructions. Jack, add me to the 75+ DPF's that you have saved. Thanks again everyone. If anyone has any questions for me i will be checking back to answer them but i am by no means an expert. Thanks again!!!!!
 
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