2005 mk4 jetta tdi 5-spd 09A Transmission issue

   #61  

roth

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To sumarize

Is "Condition of solenoids" sufficient? IE, the 11101000 ?
004,4,Condition of,Solenoid Valves
; 1xxxxxxx - Solenoid Valve 4 (N91)
; x1xxxxxx - Solenoid Shift Lock
; xx1xxxxx - Solenoid Valve 9 (N282)
; xxx1xxxx - Solenoid Valve 8 (N281)
; xxxx1xxx - Solenoid Valve 3 (N90)
; xxxxx1xx - Solenoid Valve 5 (N92)
; xxxxxx1x - Solenoid Valve 2 (N89)
; xxxxxxx1 - Solenoid Valve 1 (N88)

We are only interested in the state of the last 3 solenoids N92, N89, N88. So, based on the table (from the manual) and label file:

gear 1 ---> 1 1 1 (also reverse)
gear 2 ---> 0 1 1
gear 3 ---> 0 1 0
gear 4 ---> 1 0 0
gear 5 ---> 1 0 1

To summarize, transmission flares up on 3-4 shift but it goes into 4. After that, providing the speed of the car / RPM of the engine is sufficient, it shifts into 5 and does not slip in it, 3-4 flare (slip) causes high ATF temperature and consequently corresponding code.

Like I said before, I suspect K3 clutch (cracked piston, sealing rings, etc), possibly VB and / or solenoids.

BR, Andy
 
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Locoelectrician

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Would K3 clutch (cracked piston, sealing rings, etc), cause an issue that only shows up so far 1% of the time? Hopefully we gather more useful information tonight because if it's something that serious, I see a manual swap in the future. We will report back later with what we find.
 
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roth

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Would K3 clutch (cracked piston, sealing rings, etc), cause an issue that only shows up so far 1% of the time? Hopefully we gather more useful information tonight because if it's something that serious, I see a manual swap in the future. We will report back later with what we find.
Don't know, knowing those transmissions, it might be vale body as well. When you take off valve body you can test all clutches with shop air (if you have it). That is the way they do it in trans shop. All you know that you have to have K3 working, along with B2 and B3. I'm thinking K3, because it is small (low friction area) and it takes the most abuse, it is used the most in 3 4 5 gear. Now, there is that thing, if it works in 3 4 and 5, then why ony in 4 you have this problem?

...and that's the thing that bothers me :).

BR, Andy
 
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obamachicken

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Should I be using the basic measuring blocks or advance measuring blocks when trying to do a log later?
 
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Either one will do. Understand that the sample rate depends on how many groups you're pulling data from. In Advanced, the location shows you the group number a particular data element comes from.

-Uwe-
 
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Should be some decent data coming. 4 failures, all logged. Even failed in tiptronic going from 3-4. Trans temp seems to top out at 100.0c. My son will report soon. Also, found from aamco that at 117,000 miles it was completely rebuilt. Overhaul kit, converter, pump, and filter.
 
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obamachicken

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So here is the latest log we just got done recording. As stated above we have 3 or 4 logs showing this failure( two of them being in automatic and one being in tiptonic mode) The failures don't happen in the log until the last three marker points after a long stretch of data https://www.dropbox.com/s/cmoso0qsztfzrmp/LOG-02-024-034-048-071.CSV?dl=0 the time that the failures happened in the log was at 17:34, 17:35, 17:36.
I hope all this data makes sense to you guys.:)
 
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Locoelectrician

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Hopefully someone can make sense of the log. It looks similar to what I'm used to seeing but does not look to me like it pulled near enough data. I can see the flare, but the numbers jump quite a bit. Basically, I don't know what the beep I'm looking at and hoping someone else does. The one thing that's strange to me is that the tranny temp tops out at 100.0 and never moves from that point. When it failed in tiptronic, he shifted from 3 to 4 and it felt like he put it in neutral. He let off of the throttle and when the rpm came down it engaged 4 and stayed there until he chose 5th. When in auto, from 3 to 4 it went to "neutral", and when the rpm settled, stayed in 4th, and then shifted to 5th. If there is anything else please ask. Thanks.
 
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Not at all doubting you, but would you mind elaborating on your findings please? Just trying to understand what's going on. Especially with the temp that seems to top out and hold at 212f.
 
   #71  

Jack@European_Parts

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The temp of the fluid is acceptable in a normal working range hot.

What I want to know was.........is it spiking up or down outside the linear path, because temp changes gradual....... not instantly.

You clearly make the gears cold right?
You make the gears hot with a deviation of about 500 RPM on the 3 to 4 H verse M phase but it does go there.

This indicates worn clutch pack and PSI lose causing a slip...... Considering it was quote on quote " allegedly rebuilt " ........( Reused )
Your history says Clean no Contaminates.....

Note: I am sure trans rebuilder will not be happy with this, however, it's a unfortunate truth.

The parts to buy internally from the OEM........ are not available for on the cheap in order to do a complete proper rebuild.
Most of it is a reuse/inspect game...
Most that call them so called qualified to preform such inspections......are NOT!

The parts exceed the cost of a new unit. FACT!

A way to verify my words........ is to look up all the internals at dealer and compare to the price of new or reman unit from VW.

VW units are new throughout........including rebuilds.

Trying what I sated as a ( Thickening agent ) based on existing known history, is hardly a gamble when considering the possible up side.
 
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Locoelectrician

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I see no spikes in the log as far as temps are concerned, but like I said, it climbs to exactly 100.0 and never moves. Not even a tenth of a degree. Slowly climbs up to 100.0C (212F) and sits there.
 
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Locoelectrician

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I have no idea at this moment, but find it incredibly odd (failing sensor?) that it sticks at exactly 100.0
 
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   #75  

Jack@European_Parts

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I am not saying it is faulty........

If you RTFB understand the Reverse gear clutch K2 for gears 3rd through 5th gear clutch K3 As assembly!

Significant why?

What is the gear typically with highest PSI for most manufacturers of trans units ? Reverse! ( rule of thumb )

What does this system share? RTFB! Section 37-38 Automatic gearbox gears CONTROL........& Elements.

You want to know go read it please.
 
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ivagp

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while the scan tool is great and can do almost everything you still have to do a pressure checks. also you have to do air checks. have you checked the signals going to the solenoids. just an overall check of all the wires coming and going from the computer and trans. if you have a lab scope you could see the wave form. check all powers and grounds. just get to the basics. if all checks out try another tcm before tear down .
 
   #77  

roth

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I don't see anything surprising here. The only good thing is that we can confirm the gears shift and solenoids states are as predicted. I can see you had a couple of good shifts here, not too much slip.

Anyway, you can go only so far with some kind of diagnostics. Your problem seems kind of unusual as you have a component failing in 4th that is also used in other gears. It seems impossible for something to be good in one instance and bad in another. This, however is real world and if you think about the conditions in 4th and all the other gears, for sure you can see that they are totally different and therefore it is possible, even if you only take torques carried by individual clutches.

The best thing would be to pressure test the trans. That is the proper way. You figure out which clutch might be the suspect and then pressure test it. If you cannot narrow the area of interest that way, the next step would be taking stuff apart and visual inspection.

As, far as Jacks's remarks about transmission rebuilding business, he's 100% right (and that goes not only for transmissions). Simply there are no parts you can get
for them and if they are they are too expensive.

In the real world the way to approach this is to try to figure out in the problem is something simple, cheap and easy to fix. For example, you have a code for trans speed sensor, you put a new sensor in and you done. Next in order would be the solenoid, valve body, particular clutch, drum, etc. If you are getting into fuzzy area of it could be this and it could be that, it is best to replace trans with low mileage used unit. Rebuilding means that they try to fix something that all the engineers couldn't get right in the 1st place, in the factory with all the tools, experience and theoretical knowledge available. That is why AAMCO brags how great of a job they do and give you only 36K mi warranty.

The question for you is are you comfortable to start taking the trans apart and do you have the conditions to do it?

... and BTW, remember that there are no guaranties. Meaning you can replace whatever you see wrong and still have the problem right away or few months down the road. The reason why is that you fixed the broken piece buy did not eliminate the conditions that caused it to break. Just something to think about.

BR,Andy
 
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Locoelectrician

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I have not checked any of the wiring only because everything I read says if there are wiring problems, there will be solenoid faults. A VW tech has told me that a faulty temp sensor will drive the tcm nuts and make it do very erratic things. He also said that when the transmission detects it is overheating it will change shift strategies. He says they put an 09G (while in transmission class) on the class dyno and simulated a failing temp sensor and the trans went wild. I'm not doubting failed clutches or whatever but bitching at me to read the fucking book, that I dont even have, is not helping me at all, which is the reason i came to this forum..... to ask for help.
 
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Locoelectrician

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I don't see anything surprising here. The only good thing is that we can confirm the gears shift and solenoids states are as predicted. I can see you had a couple of good shifts here, not too much slip.





BR,Andy
Are you saying you do not see where the RPM shot to redline when shifting to 4th? I'll admit, I couldnt follow the log very well but the 3 or 4 times it did it, the rpm shoots from 2500 to 4000, just like the car was thrown into neutral. I agree with jack as well about the "rebuild".
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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I have not checked any of the wiring only because everything I read says if there are wiring problems, there will be solenoid faults. A VW tech has told me that a faulty temp sensor will drive the tcm nuts and make it do very erratic things. He also said that when the transmission detects it is overheating it will change shift strategies. He says they put an 09G (while in transmission class) on the class dyno and simulated a failing temp sensor and the trans went wild. I'm not doubting failed clutches or whatever but bitching at me to read the fucking book, that I dont even have, is not helping me at all, which is the reason i came to this forum..... to ask for help.

It is this type of attitude which is why I answer the way I do.
RTFB = Read The Factory Book

You said you want to learn and I pointed you to the pages to do so.
The forums are to be used as a guide with the aid of the VCDS tool for it and the repair manual.
The repair manual is a precondition to trying to do this!

Questions based on why is this doing this........ and ref this page of the book or tester data is what the forum discussion is for.......Not the magic answers!

I mean you can buy a daily/monthly sub at the Erwin and print it to PDF for reference.

If you actually picked up said book, you would better understand my statements aforementioned.

Until so.......... carry on with the ridiculous approach, or consider the options I said or others willingness to hold your hands.
 
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